Validly Baptised Christian on RCIA told that he needed a Conditional Baptism

[dcbrit2003]

Hi Glenda,

Thanks for your post. I wish to clear up some misunderstanding . Both my parents were at my Baptism. I did not see it as a social occasion - I was entering fully into the life of Christ’s Body through accepting my inheritance as a new person in Christ ( that being the teaching of the Community Church in question and my own understanding ). But both my parents naturally wanted to be there. Likewise with my reception into the Catholic Church. I did not see it as a social occasion but both my parents wanted to be there. My mother could not as she had a prior commitment the night before and where I was going to be received was 270 miles away. She therefore asked if I could contact the Parish to ask for an alternative date. I contacted the RCIA course leader and asked if it could be moved to the 5th October ( the following Sunday after the original date ) as I would not be at work then ( I work shifts, which include working 2 weekends out of 5 - the Parish and RCIA leader have known this for almost a year now ).

There is another Candidate who was also due to be received into the Catholic Church at the same time. The RCIA course leader said that they would check with the Parish Priest. Several days later I received an e-mail from the RCIA leader saying that the only date that was available was the 12th Oct and that the other Candidate could also change and that they hoped this would suit. I replied back saying that I was at work on that date and that having discussed this with my mother she would just cancel her appointment and come down for the original date. The reply from the RCIA leader was that the 12th had ben set with the parish priest and the other Candidate and their family and cannot now be changed so it would just have to be on that date. I replied back saying that I had not been asked if the 12th was OK and that I would be at work and therefore could not attend to which a reply came back asking if I could not submit a holiday request and asking if my work was more important than my relationship with Jesus. I replied that that is not the point and that I could not confirm my attendance for well over a month because I am actually off work on Holiday for August and would not be back until the 1st September and would not be willing to submit a Holiday request for a date that I had not been consulted on whereas the other Candidate and their family had been. The reply back from the RCIA leader was that a new date would need to be sorted out sometime in September in person. - so as you can see this has been mis-handled by the RCIA leader

For me, this was just the straw that broke that Camel’s back. I’ve had the validity of my ( valid ) Baptism questioned, without justification ( actually, to be completely accurate the diocese in question has used the request for a Conditional Baptism to play judge over the validity other Churches which are not on it’s list of ‘approved’ Churches by saying that I needed a Conditional Baptism because the church where I was Baptised wasn’t recognised - nothing to do with wether my Baptism was valid or not ). Even after appealing this to the Bishop and Chancellor the Diocese not a scrap of evidence has ever been produced to question the validity of my Baptism.

So, i’ve just had enough. I cannot take any more. Why i’ve stuck around so long I don’t really know because anyone else in my position would of likely high tailed it out of there long ago

Mark

 

[SyroMalankara]

Mark,

You seem to have lots of obstacles which you perceive as immovable and beyond your control.

Your mother also seems to have decided she could come on the original date after all, so why create all these frustrations for 50 others who are - by no choice of their own also now involved - when it is totally unnecessary?

 

[dcbrit2003]

Mark,

You seem to have lots of obstacles which you perceive as immovable and beyond your control.

Your mother also seems to have decided she could come on the original date after all, so why create all these frustrations for 50 others who are - by no choice of their own also now involved - when it is totally unnecessary?

eh?

 

[Della]

About both sitautions, first of all, the diocese works with non-Catholic churches in the area and therefore knows pretty well where each stands on the validity of sacraments. I’d take their word for it over my own opinion as to the validity of any of those other faith community’s baptisms. If they have a list it isn’t because they want to be ungracious but because they have the duty to protect the souls of those within their diocese.

As to the second situation, why not simply reset the date for your reception into the Church for another time? If you couldn’t make it to a dental/doctor’s appointment, that’s what you’d do, not rail against the health professionals. Why make such a thing out of it as if the parish were deliberately making things difficult when they can’t meet the date you want?

It could also be that God wants you to wait a bit longer to sort some things out.

I say again, as I did in my last post, that no matter what church you join you are going to find such difficulties because they are a part of life in our times. Possess your soul in patience because you’ll need it no matter where you land. And pray, pray, pray about it.

 

[dcbrit2003]

About both sitautions, first of all, the diocese works with non-Catholic churches in the area and therefore knows pretty well where each stands on the validity of sacraments. I’d take their word for it over my own opinion as to the validity of any of those other faith community’s baptisms. If they have a list it isn’t because they want to be ungracious but because they have the duty to protect the souls of those within their diocese.

As to the second situation, why not simply reset the date for your reception into the Church for another time? If you couldn’t make it to a dental/doctor’s appointment, that’s what you’d do, not rail against the health professionals. Why make such a thing out of it as if the parish were deliberately making things difficult when they can’t meet the date you want?

It could also be that God wants you to wait a bit longer to sort some things out.

I say again, as I did in my last post, that no matter what church you join you are going to find such difficulties because they are a part of life in our times. Possess your soul in patience because you’ll need it no matter where you land. And pray, pray, pray about it.

Della,

Thanks for your post, but you are assuming that the Community Church and the Parish where I currently live are in the same Diocese. They are not. As to your other point, perhaps you have not understood mine. Had this mis-handling ( of the dates ) happened without everything else that has happened, then it would really be a non-issue. But as i’ve said,** it is the straw that has broken the Camel’s back**, for me. I’m just really tired of this whole situation, so I have walked.

I don’t believe that God wants me to wait, simply because this whole situation with the Conditional Baptism request has been very destructive to my relationship with Jesus.

Mark

 

[pianistclare]

Della,

Thanks for your post, but you are assuming that the Community Church and the Parish where I currently live are in the same Diocese. They are not. As to your other point, perhaps you have not understood mine. Had this mis-handling ( of the dates ) happened without everything else that has happened, then it would really be a non-issue. But as i’ve said,** it is the straw that has broken the Camel’s back**, for me. I’m just really tired of this whole situation, so I have walked.

I don’t believe that God wants me to wait, simply because this whole situation with the Conditional Baptism request has been very destructive to my relationship with Jesus.

Mark

Jesus did nothing to you. Your relationship with Him should in no way be “affected” by what the priest says, what the Bishop says, or what you personally believe to be correct handling of the process. The Church has processes in place for everyone’s protection, in this cares, yours.
The Catholic Church is a worldwide Church. They are aware to varying degrees of most all of the faiths out there. The fact that they were not familiar with the community church speaks to the fact that is (apparently) a small, stand alone congregation, which was the whole point of the investigation.
But, all of this has been stated over and over again. Yet, you remain convinced that the Church is out to persecute you.
I will pray for a softening of heart for you. Jesus is waiting for you. In the Eucharist. Obviously, the time has not yet arrived.
Read up on the lives of some of the martyrs of the Church. People for whom the “last straw” would have been renouncing their Catholic faith. Reflect on what they believed being a member of Christ’s church on earth meant and was to them. Particularly the early Christian women.

 

[Della]

Della,

Thanks for your post, but you are assuming that the Community Church and the Parish where I currently live are in the same Diocese. They are not.

Still, in order for the bishop to make his decision regarding your baptism, he had to determine if the Community Church’s sacrament was vaild or not. For the sake of your soul, and only for that reason–to be certain you would be validly baptized, he decided you should have a conditional baptism. Bishops have to make such decisions and those who wish to enter the Church should abide by them. Obedience is one of the doorways to true communion with Christ, for it was Christ who set the bishops over us as shepherds of our souls. You were the one who prolonged the process by objecting. This is simply the case. Now you need to ask yourself if you really needed to go through all that hassle.

As to your other point, perhaps you have not understood mine. Had this mis-handling ( of the dates ) happened without everything else that has happened, then it would really be a non-issue. But as i’ve said,** it is the straw that has broken the Camel’s back**, for me. I’m just really tired of this whole situation, so I have walked.

I truly believe you have had expectations that could not be met but would not accept that that is the case. Why you could not is for you to discern. You will find that no matter where you go you will run into difficulties again and again if you hold on to your own desires whether they can be met or not.

I don’t believe that God wants me to wait, simply because this whole situation with the Conditional Baptism request has been very destructive to my relationship with Jesus.

Mark

In all gentleness I write that no one can destroy our relationship with Christ except ourselves. It comes from how we react to adversity–the trials that God wills to put us through to test our faith and our resolve. I don’t believe you are ready to be received into the Church. I say this in all charity not as a judgment. Not everyone is ready after RCIA and it’s no one’s fault. I do believe God wants you to wait and sort some things out for the good of your soul. After being Catholic for 25 years I’ve seen people have such difficulties and they are not insurmountable. Not unless you want them to be. Take some time to calm down and reevaluation your life before making any final decisions. You have my prayers, dear brother in Christ.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, I’m just glad that the other person isn’t being put off from the church by all this switching and changing that’s been going on as a result of your demands.

And, now that you’ve completely messed up his reception date, you’re not even going to be there, because they wouldn’t acquiesce to your mother’s scheduling conflict.

Good luck to you - I sure hope you find what you’re looking for in the Anglican Church - if you don’t find happiness in this life, after rejecting God’s Church in this way, then it will be too sad indeed!

 

[Casilda]

Dear dcbrit (Mark), I gave up also. What some here on the CAF forum do not want to believe or even acknowledge is that good Christians and sincere reverts are having stumbling blocks placed in their path for no reason other than it is by the evil one’s workers. It isn’t that we are not ready. We should not have to be perfect to be received into the church, no one is or will ever be, only Christ is. We just want to belong to His church. We want to grow and be nourished spiritually. Its what reverts want and lifelong Christians the Holy Spirit is calling want. Why should their reception be based on the machinations of paperwork.

I am witness to one busy-body of a church worker who is the contact person for almost every ministry at one parish. She discourages everyone. She gives misinformation. At another parish a deacon actually discouraged my reversion and my husband’s conversion telling us we really had to go back to our home parish, which has no priest. So it was like I was at square one all over again. I was in two rcia’s where they would constantly threaten delays of reception and baptisms because of paperwork and yet offer no way of starting the paperwork because you had to meet with a priest first and that was literally impossible. Some here say its my fault for walking away from this madness.

This is happening in my diocese. Its why we have stepped away into another diocese, of a Eastern Catholic jurisdiction.

Do stop your search for truth, brother. I pray you find it and can heal from this experience.

 

[Della]

Dear dcbrit (Mark), I gave up also. What some here on the CAF forum do not want to believe or even acknowledge is that good Christians and sincere reverts are having stumbling blocks placed in their path for no reason other than it is by the evil one’s workers. It isn’t that we are not ready. We should not have to be perfect to be received into the church, no one is or will ever be, only Christ is. We just want to belong to His church. We want to grow and be nourished spiritually. Its what reverts want and lifelong Christians the Holy Spirit is calling want. Why should their reception be based on the machinations of paperwork.

I am witness to one busy-body of a church worker who is the contact person for almost every ministry at one parish. She discourages everyone. She gives misinformation. At another parish a deacon actually discouraged my reversion and my husband’s conversion telling us we really had to go back to our home parish, which has no priest. So it was like I was at square one all over again. I was in two rcia’s where they would constantly threaten delays of reception and baptisms because of paperwork and yet offer no way of starting the paperwork because you had to meet with a priest first and that was literally impossible. Some here say its my fault for walking away from this madness.

This is happening in my diocese. Its why we have stepped away into another diocese, of a Eastern Catholic jurisdiction.

Do stop your search for truth, brother. I pray you find it and can heal from this experience.

I am sorry for all the hassles you went through, but that’s not the norm in most dioceses and it wasn’t in Mark’s case, either. All the delays were his doing because he simply wouldn’t abide by his bishop’s decision that have a conditional baptism. And when Mark finally decided to have it done, it was grudgingly. People can have difficulties because they will not accept the decisions of those over them. But, that’s part of being a Catholic no matter what rite one follows. He truly needs to reevaluate why he wants to be Catholic–just like those wishing to enter a religious order or get married should do the same. Just because someone is attracted to some aspects of the faith doesn’t necessarily mean he is ready to embrace the most important aspects, such as obedience and trusting in God’s will for him.

 

[zz912]

I’m sorry to hear about the step back in your faith journey. I hope with some time, prayer, and reflection, you will come back home to the Catholic Church.

 

[CradleJourney]

There is another Candidate who was also due to be received into the Catholic Church at the same time. The RCIA course leader said that they would check with the Parish Priest. Several days later I received an e-mail from the RCIA leader saying that the only date that was available was the 12th Oct and that the other Candidate could also change and that they hoped this would suit.

I’ve been following this thread for awhile now, and had hoped it would end positively for you. I’m very sad it did not. To be honest, what I don’t understand is why you would have to be received in at the same time as someone else. It baffles me as a Catholic (cradle/left/returned). It’s stuff like this (the lack of personal interest / contact /understanding) that drove me away and has frustrated me since my return. (And before someone else posts all the reasons why, please understand - it’s not the motive, which may be pure and necessary, but the way that it’s communicated by whichever church employee that can be offensive.)

On the other hand, I know that no matter how legalistic, frustrating, unsympathic, etc. various church members may be, I also know that God, in His infinite wisdom, wants me to be a part of it. I won’t go into the personal revelation that convinced me of this, but it happened.

So when I want to throw up my hands and head to another church, that’s what keeps me hanging on, and in the end things turn out okay.

Sorry if my response doesn’t make much sense - way past my bedtime here.

Hugs & Prayers, CJ

 

[pianistclare]

I’ve been following this thread for awhile now, and had hoped it would end positively for you. I’m very sad it did not. To be honest, what I don’t understand is why you would have to be received in at the same time as someone else. It baffles me as a Catholic (cradle/left/returned). It’s stuff like this (the lack of personal interest / contact /understanding) that drove me away and has frustrated me since my return. (And before someone else posts all the reasons why, please understand - it’s not the motive, which may be pure and necessary, but the way that it’s communicated by whichever church employee that can be offensive.)

On the other hand, I know that no matter how legalistic, frustrating, unsympathic, etc. various church members may be, I also know that God, in His infinite wisdom, wants me to be a part of it. I won’t go into the personal revelation that convinced me of this, but it happened.

So when I want to throw up my hands and head to another church, that’s what keeps me hanging on, and in the end things turn out okay.

Sorry if my response doesn’t make much sense - way past my bedtime here.

Hugs & Prayers, CJ

Oh we get it…absolutely. The Parish staff should always be mindful of how they come across.
However, many of us are just as baffled as to why the date and whether he’s with another person even matters at all? Likely the parish was going to do something special, and it was being planned well in advance. As a person who works closely with the parish calendar, there are a number of events that are on the calendar months in advance. The church is not simply open waiting for someone to use a room, book a retreat, teach a class, etc. Especially if the space is limited. Mass schedules are tight in my parish. Again, wanting everything from God on our own time, in our own time, on our own terms is always a stumbling block. Many who want to come in to the church are simply delighted. Whenever. We have always had people who expected one thing, and were delayed for annulments, paperwork, pastor didn’t think they were ready, etc. But they persevere. It takes a great act of humility and love for Our Lord.
And forgive me for saying this, but as I myself have followed the thread, the OP has been making a fuss for months. I’m sure by now, there are some at the parish level that are exasperated by now. this is never an excuse for poor behavior, but it is a likely explanation.
As you say, things work out for the best, if indeed the time is right. Apparently, it was just not the will of God right now. Hopefully, there will be a softening of heart, and the OP will find a home in the Catholic Church.

 

[Casilda]

Oh we get it…absolutely. **The Parish staff should always be mindful of how they come across. **

Exactly. And a priest should evaluate their competence routinely.

However, many of us are just as baffled as to why the date and whether he’s with another person even matters at all? Likely the parish was going to do something special, and it was being planned well in advance. As a person who works closely with the parish calendar, there are a number of events that are on the calendar months in advance.

*That explains a lot.
*
The church is not simply open waiting for someone to use a room, book a retreat, teach a class, etc. Especially if the space is limited. Mass schedules are tight in my parish.

*Again, this is due to overwhelmingly large parishes and too few priests to be able to administer oversight properly. Think about Moses in the wilderness and the advice given to him from his father-in-law, Jethro.
*

Again, wanting everything from God on our own time, in our own time, on our own terms is always a stumbling block. Many who want to come in to the church are simply delighted. Whenever. We have always had people who expected one thing, and were delayed for annulments, paperwork, pastor didn’t think they were ready, etc. But they persevere.

*Only by the grace of God.
*
It takes a great act of humility and love for Our Lord.
And forgive me for saying this, but as I myself have followed the thread, the OP has been making a fuss for months. I’m sure by now, there are some at the parish level that are exasperated by now. this is never an excuse for poor behavior,

*Exasperation caused by inappropriately trained church personnel, their poor behavior is what started the whole fiasco. You CAN NOT blame the OP and let the staff go unreprimanded. Just think of how many people turn away because of them. Think of how many people just gave up? I was one of them. *

but it is a likely explanation.
As you say, things work out for the best, if indeed the time is right. Apparently, it was just not the will of God right now. Hopefully, there will be a softening of heart, and the OP will find a home in the Catholic Church.

I also wish that the OP find a home in a Catholic church.

 

[pianistclare]

I also wish that the OP find a home in a Catholic church.

I know you had a bad experience…we’ve heard about it countless times. But when you get people who simply cannot accept the answers they get, you will always have problems.

We really don’t know what happened. We really don’t know what happened in your case. We are only hearing one side of the story.

 

[Casilda]

when you get people who simply cannot accept the answers they get, you will always have problems.

The OP wasn’t given any answers, he was simply given a problem with no real solutions. Making the decision to become Catholic isn’t like the decision to change your hair color. Its a life changing permanent event. Converts and reverts know this. It is harmful to one’s soul to have pressures added arbitrarily by not so competent staff. What we didn’t expect was that every parish has different programs and that volunteers are only as good as their training.

I have read posts from people here who say their RCIA was wonderful and others admit that it was less than adequate. Please stop insinuating that my experience was fabricated.

 

[pianistclare]

The OP wasn’t given any answers, he was simply given a problem with no real solutions. Making the decision to become Catholic isn’t like the decision to change your hair color. Its a life changing permanent event. Converts and reverts know this. It is harmful to one’s soul to have pressures added arbitrarily by not so competent staff. What we didn’t expect was that every parish has different programs and that volunteers are only as good as their training.

I have read posts from people here who say their RCIA was wonderful and others admit that it was less than adequate. Please stop insinuating that my experience was fabricated.

I never said it was. I believe you had trouble. But I don’t believe for a moment that what you experienced is the norm. And I wish you would stop bashing all RCIA programs and parish staff.

 

[Tommy999]

Sorry things didn’t work out, Mark. Yours is a story whose ending was a bit surprising and not what we anticipated based on previous information leading up to your final decision.

However, thanks for allowing us to tag along vicariously through your experiences and learn about the process.

I wish you all the best in the future and hope you grow closer to God through Christ in the Anglican Church and that any bad feelings toward the Catholic parish will heal over time.

 

[jmcrae]

It is harmful to one’s soul to have pressures added arbitrarily by not so competent staff.

I would love to know what you think the volunteer should have done. She is told by her pastor, “I can’t receive this person into the Church because I have never heard of this church that he was baptized in.”

She could have just told the candidate, sorry, not happening. Instead she negotiated for a conditional Baptism.

Yes, either she or the Pastor should have realized the situation sooner, but given that they didn’t, what should she have done differently? And if he gets to be special and arrange his own date without regard for what else is going on in the parish, then do the other 300+ Confirmandi who come through the parish doors each year get to do the same?

 

[Miserissima]

Yes, either she or the Pastor should have realized the situation sooner, but given that they didn’t, what should she have done differently? And if he gets to be special and arrange his own date without regard for what else is going on in the parish, then do the other 300+ Confirmandi who come through the parish doors each year get to do the same?

This^

First, there was a administrative error. RCIA was considered “a wash,” no?

Then, the parish wasn’t quick enough in its investigation, slow to contact the previous church.

Next it would be too long to wait to hear back from Rome.

Finally, the OP requested a different date for the conditional baptism and it was too quickly granted, coordinated among the parish facilities, other candidate and his/her family (making that person wait a week longer). But the response was too quickly made by the parish, not having given more optional dates to the OP, who finds out he jumped the gun in requesting a new date because Mommy was able to make the 1st day and time anyway.

Am I understanding the timeline? Please correct me.