Value of a human life?

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you vern Humphrey;

The issue is what can be done, and who will do it. Are **you **

prepared to overthrow Kim Jong Il, for example, who keeps his people in crushing poverty?

Supporting the poor is not about overthrowing governments, and you must know full well that people on this board are unlikely to be in a position to overthrow governments, and I wonder why you keep asking.
There are many charities including Cafod that support people directly in need, they do not channel money through corrupt governments. They put a value on the poor, we can all do something and make a difference as small as this might seem.

In the spirit of praying for trade justice

Eric.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Greetings and peace be with you. Supporting the poor is not about overthrowing governments,

It isn’t?

Tell me how you would support the poor of North Korea without overthrowing Kim Jong Il?

and you must know full well that people on this board are unlikely to be in a position to overthrow governments, and I wonder why you keep asking.

For the same reason you keep preaching to the rest of us that we must support them – and ignore the fact that most of them are held in bondage – and you’re not willing to do anything about that.

There are many charities including Cafod that support people directly in need, they do not channel money through corrupt governments.

So how come the people of North Korea are still starving?

Could it be that no matter **how **you channel it, it still winds up under the control of those corrupt governments?

They put a value on the poor, we can all do something and make a difference as small as this might seem.

Short of humping 80 lb packs and a double basic load of ammo, eh?

In the spirit of praying for trade justice

As opposed to actually doing something to bring justice in all forms to the poor?

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you vern Humphrey;

Tell me how you would support the poor of

North Korea without overthrowing Kim Jong Il?
Ok the Americans and Brits killed Saddam, how has that helped the poor in Iraq? Overthrowing governments is not the answer, unless you are confident of peacemaking after. Look at the mess America and Britain have made in Iraq, two million refugees, hundreds of thousands dead, and a lot of desperately poor people.

I wonder what value the American and British people put on the lives of ordinary working class Iraqi people?

In the spirit of praying for peace

Eric

 

[vern_humphrey]

Ok the Americans and Brits killed Saddam, how has that helped the poor in Iraq.

Other than ending oppression by a dictator who was willing to use nerve gas on his own people, and to repeatedly invade his neighbors?

Overthrowing governments is not the answer, unless you are confident of peacemaking after. Look at the mess America and Britain have made in Iraq, two million refugees, hundreds of thousands dead, and a lot of desperately poor people.

Aside from the fact those are your numers, let me point out that the enemy is responsible for most of the dead and refugees.

You might as well blame Britain and France for the Belgian and Dutch refugees who fled the Nazis in 1940.

I wonder what value the American and British people put on the lives of ordinary working class Iraqi people?

Apparently some of them put a considerably higher value on those lives than you do – since they are in Iraq (many of them for the third tour) working to bring peace and improve conditions there.

On the other hand, a good case may be made that those who call themselve “anti-war” bear their share of the responsibility – since they give the enemy leave to believe they can win politically what they cannot win on the battlefield.

 

[RWMorris]

How about, the life of the Pope is not worth more than the life of a pornographer?

That’s true, and the logical equivalent of what you said, but you didn’t feel at all the same reading it, did you?

I’m not sure if I buy this one. One, through blatant disregard for the well being of others, can devalue their own life. The Church does allow that the state can extinguish another life if that life is deemed a danger to others even if they are incarcerated.

I believe that the Pope’s life is worth more than a child pornographer’s.

I hope I’m not in trouble now!

 

[RWMorris]

…On the other hand, a good case may be made that those who call themselve “anti-war” bear their share of the responsibility – since they give the enemy leave to believe they can win politically what they cannot win on the battlefield.

Dang Vern, I am not worthy!:bowdown: Wow, what a great post. Sanctimony, be gone!

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings and peace be with you RWMorris;

Originally Posted by vern humphrey

forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
…On the other hand, a good case may be made that those who call themselve “anti-war” bear their share of the responsibility – since they give the enemy leave to believe they can win politically what they cannot win on the battlefield.

Dang Vern, I am not worthy!:bowdown: Wow, what a great post. Sanctimony, be gone!

I am trying to think when Jesus took up a sword, I am trying to think what value Jesus puts on the lives of Iraqi people.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

 

[deb1]

People are going to ignore what you say here and praise the virtues of laissez-faire capitalism. Discussing wealth inequality in this forum will elicit cries of “class envy.”

Personally, I sometimes wonder what I can do to rectify this. Well, I cannot not unfortunately do anything significant.

Ribo, just reach out an help one person and continue to help someone new everyday. You will be doing more then most folks. Are you going to solve the world’s problems? No. Probably not. But that doesn’t mean that you won’t have an effect.

 

[deb1]

Greetings and peace be with you RWMorris;

I am trying to think when Jesus took up a sword, I am trying to think what value Jesus puts on the lives of Iraqi people.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

When Jesus saw people being cheated he took up a whip. I am sure that was painful to the backs of those he beat.

If we worked together think of what we could accomplish. The soldier might remove a dictator and the aid worker would help the people learn to care for themselves. But if both the aid worker and soldier refuse to see the value in each others contribution, nothing will get accomplished.

What annoys me is that I see an awful lot of egotistical charity going on. People want to help so that the giver feels good. So, they completely ignore any of the problems that might have caused the poverty in the first place. Instead the giver feels, “Hey, I did something, aren’t I great.” The giver didn’t accomplish anything except to pat himself on the back.

Several years back many people were calling for the boycott of companies that used child labor in foreign countries. But a study was done that showed that many of the children ended up in prostitution or starvation. They didn’t end up in school. This is because no one actually was working to end their poverty. The goal was to make some people feel better that they had done something-even if it made matters worse-to end those children’s suffering.

.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Greetings and peace be with you RWMorris;

I am trying to think when Jesus took up a sword,

35 He said to them, “When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “No, nothing,” they replied.
36 He said to them, "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.

(Luke, 22, 35-36)

I am trying to think what value Jesus puts on the lives of Iraqi people.

The same value He puts on yours and mine. Which is why those who risk their lives for the Iraqi people are worthy of our respect and admiration.

 

[RWMorris]

Greetings and peace be with you RWMorris;

I am trying to think when Jesus took up a sword, I am trying to think what value Jesus puts on the lives of Iraqi people.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth.

Eric

Eric, others have answered your post for me which I appreciate, especially since I’m not sure what you mean. I was praising Vern for what I thought was an excellent rebuttal to your post.

I’ve never met Jesus in the flesh so I don’t know if he ever “took up a sword” or not. The Bible doesn’t cover every day of his life. Like Deb1 posted it was reported in the Bible he took up a whip once.

I used to carry a loaded M-16 and sometimes a .38 (do I sound old or what?) when I was in the military and I was a Christian. In fact, they taught me how to kill people using that M-16 (aim for center of mass). I never had to kill anyone, all I ever did with my weapons was stand guard over nuclear weapon storage facilities and weapon systems loaded with those WMD. But the only thing that kept me from having to use that weapon was I never received orders placing me in a combat zone. Let me ask you Eric, does that, in your view, make me a better Christian than our men who were in Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Grenada, or Iraq? Or maybe I was a worse Christian because I stood guard over WMD.

 

[RWMorris]

… One, through blatant disregard for the well being of others, can devalue their own life. The Church does allow that the state can extinguish another life if that life is deemed a danger to others even if they are incarcerated.

I believe that the Pope’s life is worth more than a child pornographer’s.

I hope I’m not in trouble now!

I know I’m answering my own post, but I’m going to retract part of what I said above. It is a slippery slope to start ranking the worthiness of all us sinners. But you have to admit, there’s not much lower one can go than being a child pornographer.

 

[ribozyme]

When Jesus saw people being cheated he took up a whip. I am sure that was painful to the backs of those he beat.

If we worked together think of what we could accomplish. The soldier might remove a dictator and the aid worker would help the people learn to care for themselves. But if both the aid worker and soldier refuse to see the value in each others contribution, nothing will get accomplished.

What annoys me is that I see an awful lot of egotistical charity going on. People want to help so that the giver feels good. So, they completely ignore any of the problems that might have caused the poverty in the first place. Instead the giver feels, “Hey, I did something, aren’t I great.” The giver didn’t accomplish anything except to pat himself on the back.

.

But isn’t that what charity is supposed to be? A Pareto efficient way of helping the poor. Surely, those who give would not gain anything monetary in their “investment” but it would make them feel better. Taxes also help the less fortunate within a nation, but, of course, it is not Pareto efficient (evidently because libertarians rail about taxes being tantamount to theft.) As a diversion from the topic, I think redistributive taxation should be viewed from the context of a Rawlsian contract as it rectifies the misfortunes one may have due to traits and events that are not in their control.

But people consider giving to universities and promoting the arts an act of charity when those acts do not benefit the poor, but it benefits the giver.

Personally, I do not become ostentatious about it (unless such behavior leads to a positive feedback loop that encourages others to give), but I am mainly interested in the consequences of such actions.

 

[rpp]

But isn’t that what charity is supposed to be? A Pareto efficient way of helping the poor. Surely, those who give would not gain anything monetary in their “investment” but it would make them feel better. Taxes also help the less fortunate within a nation, but, of course, it is not Pareto efficient (evidently because libertarians rail about taxes being tantamount to theft.) As a diversion from the topic, I think redistributive taxation should be viewed from the context of a Rawlsian contract as it rectifies the misfortunes one may have due to traits and events that are not in their control.

But people consider giving to universities and promoting the arts an act of charity when those acts do not benefit the poor, but it benefits the giver.

Personally, I do not become ostentatious about it (unless such behavior leads to a positive feedback loop that encourages others to give), but I am mainly interested in the consequences of such actions.

This is a very interesting post.

Unfortunately, I do not speak this language. Can someone translate?

(Seriously, I do not understand what your point is. Can you restate it with two- or three-syllable words?

 

[deb1]

But isn’t that what charity is supposed to be? A Pareto efficient way of helping the poor. Surely, those who give would not gain anything monetary in their “investment” but it would make them feel better. Taxes also help the less fortunate within a nation, but, of course, it is not Pareto efficient (evidently because libertarians rail about taxes being tantamount to theft.) As a diversion from the topic, I think redistributive taxation should be viewed from the context of a Rawlsian contract as it rectifies the misfortunes one may have due to traits and events that are not in their control.

But people consider giving to universities and promoting the arts an act of charity when those acts do not benefit the poor, but it benefits the giver.

Personally, I do not become ostentatious about it (unless such behavior leads to a positive feedback loop that encourages others to give), but I am mainly interested in the consequences of such actions.

Yes. Giving is supposed to make you feel better. I try and help others when I am able and it does make me feel good.

But I was trying to make the point that some people help ONly to make themselves feel better. They don’t take the time to find out if their efforts have any effect, good or bad, on those that they are helping.

Here is a bad analogy that will get picked apart but maybe it will help you understand what I mean. Imagine that there is a family in which the husband is an abusive drunk who refuses to work. The family is starving so you give the mother money. The husband finds out and beats the mother, takes the money and spends it on alcohol. The children still go hungry. Despite knowing this, you feel good that you help so you keep giving the mother money. She is scared to keep this secret from her husband and he in turn continually takes the money.

You have a friend who says, “Ribo, lets call the police. The woman has bruises and we live in a state that will arrest an abuser without the abused’s consent.” You realize that this would cause a lot of time on your part. You’d have to go to court and testify, which would make you miss work. Not only that but the police carry guns, something you are against. THey also would be forced to use violence against the man, as he is a very violent person. You are against force also. So, you put your fingers in your ears, ignoring your friend. You continue to give the woman money and then admonish your friend for not doing so. You feel good for doing your part.

Did that make sense?

 

[deb1]

This is a very interesting post.

Unfortunately, I do not speak this language. Can someone translate?

(Seriously, I do not understand what your point is. Can you restate it with two- or three-syllable words?

I think that he was making the point that our taxes could be used to help other countries. I admit, Ribo lost me a bit in his post. No offense to you Ribo, I like your various posts on this forum and your desire to do good in the world.

 

[ribozyme]

Not only that but the police carry guns, something you are against.

Did that make sense?

I am not against guns; why would you presume that? I am not that enthusiastic about gun control although I might be considered a pacificist.

My own political agenda is rather antithetical to that of Grover Norquist and the Club for Growth.

 

[deb1]

I am not against guns; why would you presume that? I am not that enthusiastic about gun control although I might be considered a pacificist.

My own political agenda is rather antithetical to that of Grover Norquist and the Club for Growth.

Ribo, I didn’t mean to imply that you were really against guns. I was making the analogy up on the spot and decided at the last moment ot include your name in it. By YOU, I meant anyone/everyone/this particular person, not anyone specifically.

I said that I wasn’t good at analogies, I just wanted you to understand the point that I was making.

The misunderstanding was totally my fault though. Sorry.