Value of Non-Christian religions

[Anna_Scott]

You made me laugh. Not at you, but I’m only 25 years old, and don’t see myself as “wise.” I only repeat what I read, and pray I become a tool of God rather than the devil.

I think Christians have to be very careful because what “meditation” can mean to us and what “meditation” can mean in other religions are sometimes wildly different things. This is why many modern-day Protestants read about the Desert Fathers “meditating” and think that the Desert Fathers are ripping off eastern pagan faiths when, in fact, the definitions used by the two groups are incompatible.

Meditation for Christians is more about internal review on our relationship with God. It’s about focused prayer on what sins we have, and seeking to tame our flesh and intellect.

This is why the Roman Catholics use the rosary and the Eastern Orthodox use the prayer rope: **to focus our attention on our being and direct it towards God, fighting against the distraction brought about by the demons.

In this manner we realize what it is that separates us from God and begin our warfare to drive it out. So in a way I think you’re right when you say meditation without focus, especially without focus towards our Trinitarian God, is a dangerous thing.
**
Someone in my family recently told me about how she dabbled in something called “The Way,” and how she meditated with a prayer towards the angel Raphael and healed her arm pains - all of which is New Age nonsense with a few Bible personalities thrown in, much like the Gnostics took a few names from the Bible and created a new pagan faith. Such things a Christian should stay far away from.

Overall I don’t think the very idea of meditation is a bad thing, and I believe if used in the traditional (not modernized) Christian context it is fine. However, **modern-day Christians have to be careful with going on a rampage and intermixing faiths together. **A lot of Emergent Church folks do this, and it hurts our path to God. As Christ said, no one can serve two masters (Matt 6:24).

Byzantine_Wolf:

I’m glad I made you laugh.

We have talked before on the forums; and I think I sent you a long PM once about my scary 2nd marriage–far more information than you wanted, I’m sure. I think it was to you.

Thank you for another “wise” and excellent post. I think we have the same ideas regarding meditation.

The point you made about the rosary and prayer rope is very interesting to me, especially your statement about “focusing our attention on our being and direct it towards God, fighting against the distraction brought about by the demons.” I really didn’t understand the need for a rosary or prayer rope. Now, this makes sense to me.

I think there is not enough emphasis placed on the risk of demons or dark spirits.

In my previous post, I told the OP to be very careful–that he may be mixing a “dash of paganism” with the new found love of the Catholic Church.

I said, “I do see a risk in meditation. If you are meditating on God/Trinity or meditating on God’s Word–that is a wonderful and powerful thing.”

And

“If your meditation lacks focus, you may be at risk of encountering spirits who would mislead you. Meditation can easily become a type of self-hypnosis—that can make you vulnerable to dangerous things.”

I quoted Ephesians 6:11-13 (ESV):

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

So, Mr. Wolf, I think we are definitely in agreement about meditation–and its benefits and risks. I’m sure the OP will gain more insight from your post.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Most of this thread so far has been focused on Buddhism, but there are other religions out there that have been quite influential. And none moreso than one in particular: Judaism.

A few years back I looked into Judaism quite heavily. To say that Judaism brings no value to Christianity is almost like saying a mother brings no value to her child. At one point I was seriously thinking about converting to Orthodox Judaism, but further reflection on my part stopped me from doing so. My main reason was that deep down, I didn’t think I would be a very good Jew (as in following the mitzvah).

However, that time spent looking into Judaism is largely responsible for my long path back to God. Reading the Scriptures with a Jewish understanding of them really helped in bringing them into perspective, and made me realize how out of sorts my mind was when it came to truly understanding Christianity. My upbringing as a Fundamental Baptist instilled in me a severely outdated and simplistic understanding of God and the Scriptures. I was quite surprised to find out that Jews have a more developed understanding than many Fundamentalist Christians. This experience is what ultimately helped open my eyes and my heart to Catholicism. I see Catholicism having more in common with Judaism than with Christian Fundamentalism.

OmegaSupreme,

Welcome to the Forums. :clapping:

I need to leave for an appointment, so I will respond to your post later. I have had a similar experience with Judaism; and I agree that Judaism is very important in understanding Christianity.

Anna

 

[fbg36]

Rossum wrote:

“I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment … You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that.”

==================================

Hi, Rossum. I enjoy your posts. The one about your high-speed time-trip vision, the tangerine, and the teacher reminds me of a jolting encounter I had with a Zen master (Shodo-Harada Roshi, at Sogen-Ji monastery, Japan). Once He said to me, “Okay, you have big imagination, so I give you permission to imagine during zazen [meditation]. Go where it wants.”

This was a big deal because I was trying to work on koans and on mu practice and other hard traditional stuff. So that evening during zazen I imagined I was floating through space with millions of stars and galaxies all around, and my body existed only from the waist up and was totally empty inside, I had no legs, nothing below the waist, just an empty floating torso and head floating peacefully through the cosmos.

When the bell sounded to end the sitting I ran back to have my turn at a meeting with Roshi and described the whole scene to him and my feelings, etc. When I was finished he nodded and seemed to be serious but then smiled and said, “Hmmm … okay, now get rid of top half.”

Zap. One more koan.

~ Frank

 

[rossum]

Rossum wrote:

“I was eating a tangerine. I noticed how incredibly lovely a thing it was. So delicate. So amazingly orange. So very tasty. So I told Nishijima about that. That experience, he said, was enlightenment … You need a teacher like that. The world needs lots more teachers like that.”

I wish I had, but I didn’t write it, Brad Warner wrote it; I quoted it from his website: Sit Down and Shut Up - look for the essay “Zen is Boring!”. He follows Soto Zen rather than Rinzai Zen, so there are no koans.

Hi, Rossum. I enjoy your posts. The one about your high-speed time-trip vision, the tangerine, and the teacher reminds me of a jolting encounter I had with a Zen master (Shodo-Harada Roshi, at Sogen-Ji monastery, Japan). Once He said to me, “Okay, you have big imagination, so I give you permission to imagine during zazen [meditation]. Go where it wants.”

This was a big deal because I was trying to work on koans and on mu practice and other hard traditional stuff. So that evening during zazen I imagined I was floating through space with millions of stars and galaxies all around, and my body existed only from the waist up and was totally empty inside, I had no legs, nothing below the waist, just an empty floating torso and head floating peacefully through the cosmos.

When the bell sounded to end the sitting I ran back to have my turn at a meeting with Roshi and described the whole scene to him and my feelings, etc. When I was finished he nodded and seemed to be serious but then smiled and said, “Hmmm … okay, now get rid of top half.”

It seems to me that Shodo-Harada Roshi was essentially saying that same thing as Nishijima Sensei. Those cosmic visions are not what meditation is about, the real goal is further on.

Samsara does not have the slightest distinction from Nirvana.
Nirvana does not have the slightest distinction from Samsara.

Whatever is the end of Nirvana, that is the end of Samsara.
There is not even a very subtle slight distinction between the two.

• Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 25:19-20
  Nirvana is not special, it is ordinary. Between his enlightenment and his death the Buddha lived in the same ordinary world that we do. Where else can nirvana be if not here and now?

rossum

 

[Andrew1983]

An interesting thing I had been listening to on “The Life is Worth Living” tribute page to Arch Bishop Sheen is that all religions contain some element of the Truth, it’s just the percentages that seem to vary.

I think that for this reason alone that it’s worth reading up on the other great world religions to see which elements are reflected.

rossum, I’m curious as to which form of Buddhism you follow: Theravada, Mahayana, or something else?

I only repeat what I read, and pray I become a tool of God rather than the devil.

I don’t know about this. Aren’t you that guy who created a cult centered around the heretical Book of SCHOEN condemned by all religious creeds and SCAD students alike? :<>

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I don’t know about this. Aren’t you that guy who created a cult centered around the heretical Book of SCHOEN condemned by all religious creeds and SCAD students alike? :<>

…listen, Andrew1983, I don’t tell you how to rape, you don’t tell me how to rape! >:<> GNYAAAA!!!

Note: Andrew1983 and I are ol’ college buds IRL. This is an inside joke. Long story.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

We have talked before on the forums; and I think I sent you a long PM once about my scary 2nd marriage–far more information than you wanted, I’m sure. I think it was to you.

Oh yes, I think I remember that. I’ve put it all behind me for certain, so don’t feel embarrassed.

I quoted Ephesians 6:11-13 (ESV):

11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm.

I think there is a spiritual warfare that most Christians are not aware of because they do not see it. Not every saint is going to see visible demons like St Anthony the Great or St Marian did - in fact, in both those instances, demons only appeared to the saints as a last resort. Most demonic influence is only through temptations, whether slight (such as anger) or major (such as sexual addiction). Although it’s not scriptural, there’s a wonderful passage in C.S. Lewis’s The Screwtape Letters where the demon is writing to his nephew and telling him never to show himself, because then the humans will figure out who they are and where the source is coming from. The greatest way to prevent someone from figuring out something is evil is by hiding the fact that the source is evil.

Now I wouldn’t go to the extreme that some Christians go, where they tell you never study other faiths, or never get into different cultures. I have a little statue of the Japanese Buddhist deity Daikoku, but I do not worship it - I just like Japanese culture. A friend recently asked if she should buy a voodoo doll in New Orleans; I told her so long as she saw it as a toy and nothing else, she should be fine. I’ve two copies of the Koran, a copy of the Book of Mormon, and I’m looking to read the Rig Veda - but to me, this is just for research, not for worship. St. Anthony the Great said that the demons are nothing more than performers on a stage putting on a show - so long as we keep treating them that way, they have no power. The only power, St. Anthony says, is in the cross, and on the cross magic and sorcery fades away.

 

[rossum]

rossum, I’m curious as to which form of Buddhism you follow: Theravada, Mahayana, or something else?

My practice is mostly Theravada. My theory is Mahayana; extract Madhyamika from all the Tibetan trimmings and read a lot of Nagarjuna. Some Zen is useful as well - it helps in getting rid of the Tibetan trimmings. Some people like all the ritual in Tibetan Buddhism, I find it gets in the way so I dropped it.

rossum

 

[fbg36]

Byzantine Wolf wrote:

“This is why the Roman Catholics use the rosary and the Eastern Orthodox use the prayer rope: to focus our attention on our being and direct it towards God, fighting against the distraction brought about by the demons.”

=================================================

Hi, Byzantine Wolf. Prayer beads are also used by Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims, and for much the same reason – to focus a wandering mind and give a down-to-earth tactile sense to prayer.

About the demons, I’ve always had trouble believing in them literally because they seem to be symbols of stuff in the mind – fears, dread, guilt, etc. For me, anyway, much of the beauty and appeal of religion in in this symbolic dimension, but I try to remind myself that symbols are representations. In themselves they’re empty, they stand for mental goings-on. Especially in the case of so-called demons, the more seriously we take them, the more we get stuck in a private emotional world that can short-circuit the more important work of a spiritual life.

My favorite demon is the Wizard of Oz, who turns out to be no more than a harmless tinker, and whose big, scary persona is unmasked by, of all things, a little dog. Viva Toto!

~ Frank

.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . .I think there is a spiritual warfare that most Christians are not aware of because they do not see it. Not every saint is going to see visible demons like St Anthony the Great or St Marian did - in fact, in both those instances, demons only appeared to the saints as a last resort.

. . .Now I wouldn’t go to the extreme that some Christians go, where they tell you never study other faiths, or never get into different cultures. I have a little statue of the Japanese Buddhist deity Daikoku, but I do not worship it - I just like Japanese culture.

A friend recently asked if she should buy a voodoo doll in New Orleans; I told her so long as she saw it as a toy and nothing else, she should be fine. I’ve two copies of the Koran, a copy of the Book of Mormon, and I’m looking to read the Rig Veda - but to me, this is just for research, not for worship. . .

BWolf:

I’ve read books on the history of paganism, as well as books on different religions. I think this is important.

However, I do disagree that objects and symbols are harmless.

I’m going way out on a limb here–but I have found that spirits can follow objects, regardless of our intention in possessing them.

I only know a few Christians who have had experiences in this area. I don’t talk about it very often. If a person has not had an experience in this area, it is difficult to believe.

One example: I inherited a very unusual lamp from my mother. The base was a unicorn. I brought it home and put it in my living room. I really liked the lamp and it was something from my childhood. But as the days passed, there seemed to be a darkness around that lamp. I began to feel very uneasy about having it in my house. I really struggled with this, because I loved the lamp–and it came from my mother.

Then one of my Christian friends came to visit. As we sat in the living room talking, she said, “You need to get rid of that lamp.” We were not even talking about the lamp. I had not told her anything about the lamp, or anything about my sensing darkness around it. I was really rather stunned. I did dispose of the lamp. This is one of a long line of experiences I have had with objects.

I also spent several years working on a Psychiatric Unit (I’m a retired RN). There were Satanic Cult members who were (name removed by moderator)atients in the Psych Unit. Symbols were vital to them and certain symbols triggered certain “alters” and certain behaviors–which could be dangerous for the patients and for us, as well. Symbols or objects could bring out suicidal or homicidal alters.

All of us, who worked on the Unit, had to learn the Satanic symbols (there are many). We had to perform searches for symbols. I remember onetime, I was doing a room search; and I lifted the lid to the toilet tank, and found a Satanic symbol, which had been drawn on the underside of the lid.

Things happened on that unit that I didn’t think were possible. Some of us witnessed symbols appearing and disappearing on the cult members, themselves. I saw a swastika appear and disappear on one patient’s skin, right before my eyes.

These are just a few experiences. I have had many.

The NT does speak of the gift of “discerning spirits.”

I have disposed of every object that was ever worshiped as a god, or used in pagan practices–including some beautiful pottery I bought, when I lived in Greece.

I wrote about the experiences on the Psychiatric Unit on the Thread: Exorcists.
Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=388711

. . . .Since I am writing under a Pen Name, I can tell you that many years ago, I worked as an RN in a Psychiatric facility. A number of the (name removed by moderator)atients were diagnosed with Multiple Personality Disorder (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder. ) All were trying to escape a Satanic Cult.

Those years were both the most fascinating and the most frightening years of my career. I remember one shift in particular, when things happened I did not think were possible. After giving report to the night nurse, she said, “These patients need an exorcist, not a Psychiatrist.” I think she was probably right.Anna

. . .I agree that people do need to be evaluated by a psychiatrist first, and also by a psychologist who has experience with Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID)–previously called Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD.)

If you were a psychology major, you know that DID is often found in people who have suffered severe abuse/trauma in childhood. The personality in children is not as integrated as it is in adulthood. So, splitting into different personalities or “alters” helps the child cope with unspeakable abuse or trauma.

The challenge arises, in psychiatric evaluation, to determine if the patient is suffering from Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID or MPD) or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder; as opposed to demon possession. Many in the field of Psychiatry and Psychology do not accept DID as a valid diagnosis, much less demon possession.

Demon possession and exorcism are difficult issues. I’m afraid many suffer unnecessarily due to misdiagnosis or lack of knowledge regarding demon possession and the process of exorcism.Anna

. . .Still, determining true demon possession seems like a difficult task.

The Satanic Cult Survivors, I worked with, had many alters–some were suicidal, some homicidal, some were even animals. The animal-like noises and animal-like behavior were especially disturbing. I witnessed images appearing and disappearing on their skin–right before my eyes. No way to fake this, and other nurses witnessed similar things. The symbol I saw appear and disappear was a swastika. Other nurses saw other symbols.

Anna

 

[fbg36]

Rossum wrote:

“My theory is Mahayana; extract Madhyamika from all the Tibetan trimmings and read a lot of Nagarjuna.”

==========================================

Nagarjuna has been my guide too but it took a while to (begin to) understand what he was talking about. Several years ago I came across a good introduction that finally turned a light on for me. Maybe you know it : “The Emptiness of Emptiness” by C.W. Huntington. I’ve got a pile of related books but keep coming back to Huntington’s.

Anyway, yes, Madhyamika does appear to be Buddhism’s bottom line. For meditation discipline I settled on Zen, though I’ve got a lot of respect for vipassana and have practiced it and spent some time at it in Sri Lanka and Thailand.

Eventually I guess we just gravitate to what makes the most sense to us privately.

~ Frank

.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

About the demons, I’ve always had trouble believing in them literally because they seem to be symbols of stuff in the mind – fears, dread, guilt, etc. For me, anyway, much of the beauty and appeal of religion in in this symbolic dimension, but I try to remind myself that symbols are representations. In themselves they’re empty, they stand for mental goings-on. Especially in the case of so-called demons, the more seriously we take them, the more we get stuck in a private emotional world that can short-circuit the more important work of a spiritual life.

I think it’s incorrect to say there are no demons, because they have presented themselves, and we know that there were angels who rebelled against God and fell to earth and became the demons. Yet it is correct to say “they’re empty” in the sense that the demons only have as much power as we let them. Saint John Damascene, in his excellent Exposition of the Orthodox Church, has two whole chapters dedicated (respectively) to angels and demons, why they are different and what they each are capable of individually.

However, I do disagree that objects and symbols are harmless.

I’m going way out on a limb here–but I have found that spirits can follow objects, regardless of our intention in possessing them.

I only know a few Christians who have had experiences in this area. I don’t talk about it very often. If a person has not had an experience in this area, it is difficult to believe.

I’ve never had an experience in this personally. I think too often in the modernistic Christian world we give demons “too much credit” in certain things. As I quoted St. Anthony earlier, the demons are performers on a stage, and too often actors have to employ “props” to perform their act - no doubt the demons take certain symbols for that as well. Yet if we see the string on a spaceship in a movie, it loses the believability - likewise, if we know a symbol has no real power over us, then it is of no harm to us in that regard.

Even holy symbols can mean nothing. Many people, when they see the cross, reverence and feel hope and joy. Others feel nothing - to put a moot point on it (as blasphemous as this may sound), even some porn stars wear crosses while performing. This was the problem found behind the iconoclast controversy that plagued the church for centuries and only resolved itself with the Seventh Ecumenical Council: some saw icons as idolatry, others recognized it as an essence of worship. Right now I’ve got an iconostasis with many icons, and I use them to pray. There are probably some (especially here in Georgia) that would think I’m demon possessed. They can believe what they want, but when I make the sign of the cross it’s before an icon of Christ and my words are directed towards my Lord.

The discernment of the spirits, as written in the NT and interpreted by the Fathers of the Church, is really, as the apostle John instructs, to “test the spirits” to see if they be of God (1 John 4:1) - but this can mean not only, say, literal spirits, but the deeds of the spirits as well: a sermon by Jeremiah Wright may not come from the spirit of holiness, but a sermon by Charles Stanley might.

 

[firstmode]

Welcome to CAF (fairly new m’self lol), and thanks for sharing! I totally agree, a lot of us knee jerk to “there’s no value in religion xyz, it’s all lies”… But is it? Or did God plant the seeds of truth in other religions pointing back to Christ?

An interesting story I learned from an Irish (for real) Priest on EWTN, a fact of Zoroatrianism which plays into the tradition that the 3 “kings” in the naitivity story were of that fatih. The founder of that faith made a prophacy several hundred (thousand?) years before Chirst’s birth, that a divine child would be born and that a new star would mark this event. Consequently many followers of that faith became accomplished astrominers, and looked for the new star. The 3 kings knew to come to Christ, because they had been watching the skys for that star!

Later, after the crusifixion St. John would run into them while preaching the gosple, and they would both convert and serve as powerful witnesses to the truth of the Gospel.

THE PROTEVANGELION OF JAMES

CHAPTER 15

1. Wise men come from the east. 3. Herod alarmed; 8. tells them if they find the child, to bring him word. 10. They visit the cave and offer the child their treasure, 11. and being warned in a dream, do not return to Herod, but go home another way.
2. Then Joseph was preparing to go away, because there arose a great disorder in Bethlehem by the coming of some wise men from the east,

The arrival of the wise men from the east and their meeting with Herod is also in Matthew 1:1ff.

1. Who said, Where is the king of the Jews born? For we have seen his star in the east and have come to worship him.
2. When Herod heard this, he was exceedingly troubled, and sent messengers to the wise men, and to the priests, and inquired of them in the town-hall.

Herod was troubled because he was the representative appointed by the Roman government and mention of the birth of a king portended sedition.

1. And said to them, Where have you found it written concerning Christ the king, or where should he be born?
2. Then they said to him, In Bethlehem of Judaea; for thus it is written: And you Bethlehem in the land of Judah, are not the least among the princes of Judah, for out of you will come a ruler, who will rule my people Israel.

The Old Testament prophecy is in Micah 5:2, which adds the messianic intimation that the king would be the Son of God, whose “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”

1. And having sent away the chief priests, he inquired of the wise men in the town-hall, and said to them, What sign was it you saw concerning the king that is born?
2. They answered him, We saw an extraordinary large star shining among the stars of heaven, which so out-shined all the other stars, so that they became invisible, and we knew thereby that a great king was born in Israel, and therefore we are come to worship him.
3. Then said Herod to them, Go and make diligent inquiry; and if you find the child, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
4. So the wise men went forth, and behold, the star which they saw in the east went before them till it came and stood over the cave where the young child was with Mary his mother.

Here is an apparent discrepancy of time or place. Matthew 2:11 says the wise men found Mary and the babe in a house, not a cave, indicating they arrived at a later time. Christian art has reconciled the cave with the manger by putting the manger in a kind of cave, but depicting the wise men there is probably an anachronism.

1. Then they brought forth out of their treasures, and offered to him gold and frankincense, and myrrh.
2. And being warned in a dream by an angel that they should not return to Herod through Judaea, they departed into their own country by another way.

CHAPTER 16

1. Herod enraged, orders the infants in Bethlehem to be slain. 2. Mary puts her infant in an ox manger. 3. Elizabeth flees with her son John to the mountains. 6. A mountain miraculously divides and receives them. 9. Herod incensed at the escape of John, causes Zacharias to be murdered at the altar, 23. the roofs of the temple rent, the body miraculously conveyed, and the blood petrified. 25. Israel mourns for him. 27. Simeon chosen his successor by lot.
2. Then Herod perceiving that he was mocked by the wise men, and being very angry, commanded certain men to go and to kill all the children that were in Bethlehem, from two years old and under.

Herod was a resentful descendant of the Idumeans who had been forcibly converted to Judaism. His cruelty was prefigured at Moses’ birth, when Pharaoh attempted to destroy the firstborn males (Exodus 1:16, 22). This event is also in Matthew 2:16-18, where it indicates the event was a fulfillment of prophecy: “Thus saith the Lord: A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.” (Jeremiah 31:15) He records that as the Jews were on their sad pilgrimage to an alien land, they passed Ramah, where Rachael, who had long been dead, is pictured weeping even in her tomb for the fate that had befallen the people, her children. As Rachael was tod her children would return from exile in Babylon (Jeremiah 31:16, 17), so Jesus will return from his exile in Egypt.

 

[firstmode]

An interesting story I learned from an Irish (for real) Priest on EWTN, a fact of Zoroatrianism which plays into the tradition that the 3 “kings” in the naitivity story were of that fatih. The founder of that faith made a prophacy several hundred (thousand?) years before Chirst’s birth, that a divine child would be born and that a new star would mark this event. Consequently many followers of that faith became accomplished astrominers, and looked for the new star. The 3 kings knew to come to Christ, because they had been watching the skys for that star!.

THE FIRST GOSPEL OF THE INFANCY OF JESUS CHRIST

CHAPTER 3

1. The wise men visit Christ. Mary gives them one of his swaddling clothes. 3. An angel appears to them in the form of a star. They return and make a fire, and worship the swaddling cloth, and put it in the fire, where it remains unconsumed.
2. And it came to pass, when the Lord Jesus was born at Bethlehem, a city of Judaea, in the time of Herod the King; the wise men came from the East to Jerusalem, according to the prophecy of Zoradascht, and brought with them offerings: namely, gold, frankincense, and myrrh, and worshipped him, and offered to him their gifts.

The wise men, or Magi, who came from “the east,” that is, outside Israel and probably from Persia, were scholars of their time. They were followers of Zoradascht, that is, Zoroaster, a Persian religious figure in the sixth or seventh century before Christ, who taught that Ahura Mazda created the universe. His divine nature was composed of two opposite (but not opposing) principles or forces, one constructive and beneficent, the other destructive and maleficent. These forces were conflicting only in name, for the resulting good or evil was brought about by the free agent, man.

(Zoroastrianism is often confused with Manicheanism, which was an absolute dualism of the leaders of darkness and light. Zoroastrianism was a mixture of old Babylonian and Oriental elements raised to the maximum; Manicheanism, condemned by the Church as a heresy, was Gnosticism with Christian elements reduced to a minimum, an Oriental dualism under Christian names.)

1. Then the Lady Mary took one of his swaddling clothes in which the infant was wrapped and gave it to them instead of a blessing, which they received from her as a most noble present.

Swaddling clothes were bands of cloth used to wrap infants. A similar custom is still used by North American Indians, who tightly wrap their babies (papooses) and carry them about bound to a board until they are two or more years old. This does not retard their muscular development, but actually aids it; their straining against the wrappings provides isometric exercise so they do not go through a “toddling” stage, but are ready to walk as soon as the practice is discontinued.

1. And at the same time there appeared to them an angel in the form of that star which had before been their guide in their journey; the light of which they followed till they returned into their own country.

If “an angel in the form of that star” seems a too facile explanation, nothing in astronomy accounts for the movements of the star. In any case, in ancient times a star signified a god, a deified king; see Numbers 24:17.

1. [New paragraph in the original] On their return their kings and princes came to them inquiring What had they seen and done? What sort of journey and return they had? What company they had on the road?
2. But they produced the swaddling cloth which St. Mary had given to them, and they made a great feast because of that.
3. According to the custom of their country, they made a fire and worshipped it.
4. And casting the swaddling cloth into it, the fire took it, and kept it.
5. And when the fire was put out, they took forth the swaddling cloth unhurt, as much as if the fire had not touched it.
6. Then they began to kiss it and put it on their heads and their eyes, saying, This is certainly an undoubted truth, and it is really surprising that the fire could not burn and consume it.
7. Then they took it, and with the greatest respect laid it up among their treasures.

Fire was a Zoroastrian symbol of the constructive force in the divine nature. Today’s Zoroastrians are the Parsees; it would be interesting to know whatever happened to this miraculously imperishable cloth that “with the greatest respect was laid up among their treasures.”

CHAPTER 4

1. Herod intends to put Christ to death. 3. An angel warns Joseph to take the child and its mother into Egypt. 6. Consternation on their arrival. 13. The idols fall down. 15. Mary washes Christ’s swaddling clothes, and hang them to dry on a post. 16. A son of the chief priest puts one on his head, and being possessed of devils, they leave him.
2. Now Herod, perceiving that the wise men did delay and not return to him, called together the priests and wise men and said, Tell me in what place the Christ should be born?
3. And when they replied, in Bethlehem, a city of Judaea, he began to contrive in his own mind the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Herod the Great, the king of Judea (37-4 B.C.), was an underling of Rome who knew little of Messianic prophecies. According to Matthew 2:4, he had to consult “the chief priests and scribes.” The political and religious leaders of the Jews, the chief priests (which included the high-priest), seemed to have had no idea that the Messiah had been born. The scribes, high cabinet officers (II Kings 22, Jeremiah 36:10), seemed the ones who knew not only the Messiah was to be born, but where, from Micah 5:2.

1. But an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in his sleep and said, Arise, take the child and his mother, and go into Egypt as soon as the cock crows. So he arose, and went.

Compare with Matthew 2:13.

 

[firstmode]

Welcome to CAF (fairly new m’self lol), and thanks for sharing! I totally agree, a lot of us knee jerk to “there’s no value in religion xyz, it’s all lies”… But is it? Or did God plant the seeds of truth in other religions pointing back to Christ?

An interesting story I learned from an Irish (for real) Priest on EWTN, a fact of Zoroatrianism which plays into the tradition that the 3 “kings” in the naitivity story were of that fatih. The founder of that faith made a prophacy several hundred (thousand?) years before Chirst’s birth, that a divine child would be born and that a new star would mark this event. Consequently many followers of that faith became accomplished astrominers, and looked for the new star. The 3 kings knew to come to Christ, because they had been watching the skys for that star!

Later, after the crusifixion St. John would run into them while preaching the gosple, and they would both convert and serve as powerful witnesses to the truth of the Gospel.

Clementine Homilies:

9.4 – Zoroaster.

"Of this family there was born in due time a certain one, who took up with magical practices, by name Nebrod, who chose, giant-like, to devise things in opposition to God. Him the Greeks have called Zoroaster.

“He, after the deluge, being ambitious of sovereignty, and being a great magician, by magical arts compelled the world-guiding star of the wicked one who now rules, to the bestowal of the sovereignty as a gift from him. But he,3 being a prince, and having authority over him who compelled him,4 wrathfully poured out the fire of the kingdom, that he might both bring to allegiance, and might punish him who at first constrained him.”

9.5 – Hero-Worship.

"Therefore the magician Nebrod, being destroyed by this lightning falling on earth from heaven, for this circumstance had his name changed to Zoroaster, on account of the living (zosan) stream of the star (asteros) being poured upon him.

"But the unintelligent amongst the men who then were, thinking that through the love of God his soul had been sent for by lightning, buried the remains of his body, and honoured his burial-place with a temple among the Persians, where the descent of the fire occurred, and worshipped him as a god. By this example also, others there bury those who die by lightning as beloved of God, and honour them with temples, and erect statues of the dead in their own forms.

“Thence, in like manner, the rulers in different places were emulous of like honour, and very many of them honoured the tombs of those who were beloved of them, though not dying by lightning, with temples and statues, and lighted up altars, and ordered them to be adored as gods. And long after, by the lapse of time, they were thought by posterity to be really gods.”

9.6 – Fire-Worship.

"Thus, in this fashion, there ensued many partitions of the one original kingdom. The Persians, first taking coals from the lightning which fell from heaven, preserved them by ordinary fuel, and honouring the heavenly fire as a god, were honoured by the fire itself with the first kingdom, as its first worshippers.

"After them the Babylonians, stealing coals from the fire that was there, and conveying it safely to their own home, and worshipping it, they themselves also reigned in order.

“And the Egyptians, acting in like manner, and calling the fire in their own dialect Phthaë, which is translated Hephaistus or Osiris, he who first reigned amongst them is called by its name. Those also who reigned in different places, acting in this fashion, and making an image, and kindling altars in honour of fire, most of them were excluded from the kingdom.”

 

[fbg36]

Anna Scott wrote:

“A friend recently asked if she should buy a voodoo doll in New Orleans; I told her so long as she saw it as a toy and nothing else, she should be fine.”

=================================================

That goes right to the heart of it. A person is prone to get from things what he/she expects of them. Most people hardly ever give a thought to demons, and so they’re not bothered by them. Those who are troubled by demons are in some way predisposed to the problem. So it’s that predisposition that needs to be looked at.

Once during an intensive retreat I had visual hallucinations. This had never happened before and it never happened again. I had really thrown myself into those meditations, blocked everything else out. It took plenty of mental energy, so I wasn’t surprised when emotional stuff started boiling up. In Zen this is called “makyo” – involuntary mental reactions to prolonged concentration. They aren’t important and should be ignored.

In fact, the teacher at this retreat (it was a vipassana retreat, in the Theravada tradition) explained before we got started that any extraordinary or nutty experiences that might come from meditation are a kind of mental jetsam, so don’t take them seriously. He said that the more successful a person becomes at the hard work of this kind of meditation, so much more does the "unconscious” begin to rise, and a purgation begins to take place, a kind of purification.

In other words, the lid that’s usually on the unconscious mind with its store of repressions, anger, fear, etc., needs mental energy to stay in place. So when a generous amount of of this energy is suddenly diverted to something else, like intense concentration, the lid opens and the “spooks” of one’s life emerge in various forms.

But it’s not always scary stuff. My halluciations included some underwater spectacles – fantastic fish, coral reefs, sunlight slanting down from above, and before that a redwood forest beneath a night sky with millions of stars, and I could see all these things with my eyes open or closed, no difference.

It was a great performance of Makyo.

~ Frank

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .I’ve never had an experience in this personally. I think too often in the modernistic Christian world we give demons “too much credit” in certain things.

As I quoted St. Anthony earlier, the demons are performers on a stage, and too often actors have to employ “props” to perform their act - no doubt the demons take certain symbols for that as well. Yet if we see the string on a spaceship in a movie, it loses the believability - likewise, if we know a symbol has no real power over us, then it is of no harm to us in that regard.

Even holy symbols can mean nothing. Many people, when they see the cross, reverence and feel hope and joy. Others feel nothing - to put a moot point on it (as blasphemous as this may sound), even some porn stars wear crosses while performing.

This was the problem found behind the iconoclast controversy that plagued the church for centuries and only resolved itself with the Seventh Ecumenical Council: some saw icons as idolatry, others recognized it as an essence of worship. Right now I’ve got an iconostasis with many icons, and I use them to pray.

There are probably some (especially here in Georgia) that would think I’m demon possessed. They can believe what they want, but when I make the sign of the cross it’s before an icon of Christ and my words are directed towards my Lord.

The discernment of the spirits, as written in the NT and interpreted by the Fathers of the Church, is really, as the apostle John instructs, to “test the spirits” to see if they be of God (1 John 4:1) - but this can mean not only, say, literal spirits, but the deeds of the spirits as well: a sermon by Jeremiah Wright may not come from the spirit of holiness, but a sermon by Charles Stanley might.

Mr. Wolf:

Interesting viewpoint.

I think our experiences in the spiritual realm affect our views of angels, demons, and iconography. Through numerous experiences with objects, I am more and more inclined to abandon iconography. But, that is an individual decision.

I do agree that demons are in some sense “performers”; and I believe they can change form.

I hold to the power of Christ, who enables us to overcome all things.

I also agree that the Biblical passages regarding the “discernment of the spirits” can have more than one meaning. I do believe that power has both a divine source and an evil/demonic source.

There may come a time when you do actually encounter a demon. I can say, that once such an encounter happens, some of your views may change.

I really can’t imagine someone saying you are “demon possessed,” because you make the sign of the cross before an icon of Christ.

I have no doubt that your prayers are directed towards our Lord.

Take care Mr. Wolf.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

I think our experiences in the spiritual realm affect our views of angels, demons, and iconography. Through numerous experiences with objects, I am more and more inclined to abandon iconography. But, that is an individual decision.

That’s unfortunate

I do agree that demons are in some sense “performers”; and I believe they can change form.

I hold to the power of Christ, who enables us to overcome all things.

I also agree that the Biblical passages regarding the “discernment of the spirits” can have more than one meaning. I do believe that power has both a divine source and an evil/demonic source.

There may come a time when you do actually encounter a demon. I can say, that once such an encounter happens, some of your views may change.

I’ve had instances where I believe I was dealing with demonic forces. I’ve never seen anything like The Exorcist, but there have been things I could not explain quite rationally. But I don’t share these experiences (let alone the divine ones) quite openly, that is for more private discussion.

I really can’t imagine someone saying you are “demon possessed,” because you make the sign of the cross before an icon of Christ.

You’d be surprised. Some of the people down here think anything is demon possessed.

 

[Anna_Scott]

That’s unfortunate

I’ve had instances where I believe I was dealing with demonic forces. I’ve never seen anything like The Exorcist, but there have been things I could not explain quite rationally. But I don’t share these experiences (let alone the divine ones) quite openly, that is for more private discussion.

You’d be surprised. Some of the people down here think anything is demon possessed.

If I were not writing under a pen name, I doubt I would reveal so much about personal experiences. The spiritual issues are some of the most difficult to discuss.

See you around, Mr. Wolf.

Anna

 

[Janet1983]

Anyway, I wonder if other people at this forum have had experience in non-Christian religion, and have benefited from it, and still draw from its insight and good sense.

Hi Frank,

I have some experiences outside of Christianity…
Well my parents are divorced and after their separation I lived with my father. His first girlfriend was Catholic and very active at church (and we went to church every Sunday, which was unusual for us… I was the only one who did something like that before we met her).
The thing was that she actually had another religion on the side… she actually followed a guru named Satya Sai Baba in India and she had traveled there quite a few times. She and her daughters had little altars in their rooms and had pictures and little statues of Hindu gods… It was very weird for me and even though us kids were trying to keep “the parents” (as we called them) together it did not work out in the end…
Years after that however I had a religion on the side for myself… It was after I had graduated from High School and I was still very much active in the church… at that time I did dabble into Wicca for about a year and as this is not a common phenomena in Germany I was basically alone doing my little thing…
I dropped it once I got a steady job and was too busy, but it taught me something: There are things out there that are evil and we should not tamper with them. It made me sensitive for God’s hand around me but it also showed me that the devil is the prince of this world and that he sure knows what he is doing. The experiences I gathered back then are still with me today because I learned of the dangers.
I don’t see the devil lurking behind everything, but he does do quite a bit around us…
I will not go into detail about this… this is not the right place to do so…