Variances in Spanish version of Roman Missal

[benedictgal]

According to my Dictionary of Ecclesiastical Latin, “Sabbaoth” can mean “heavenly hosts”, “armies”, or “an appellation of the Lord as ruler over all”. Perhaps the Spanish version “Dios del universo” alludes to the latter?

Couldn’t it also be “Dios de los ejercitos?” I believe I have heard that phrase before. I am curious as to how the Roman Missal from Spain’s episcopal conference words the Sanctus. I will say this, though, the Spanish-language version of the Gloria is more accurate than what we have right now in English. At least the new translations bring us into conformity with the Latin text.

I am curious to see if the proposed US-version of the Spanish-language Roman Missal took Liturgiam Authenticam into consideration. Does anyone know if their is a Spanish-language equivalent to ICEL?

 

[ack]

I am curious as to how the Roman Missal from Spain’s episcopal conference words the Sanctus.

Here’s a web page with the Mass responses from the Roman Missal from Spain:

misas.org/ordinario.php3

They use “Dios del Universo” just like the Mexican one does.

(I also have a copy of the Spanish-language Magnificat Missal, which includes the translations from Spain, and it agrees with this wording. I have no idea why they didn’t include the Mexican translations instead, because this missal is marketed in the US and Mexico!)

 

[Digitonomy]

Does anyone know if their is a Spanish-language equivalent to ICEL?

With a little bit of work, I uncovered mention of the Commission internationale francophone pour les traductions et la liturgie (CIFTL) at the Canadian bishops’ site. Using that combination, I uncovered this mention at the Italian site Revista Liturgica, translated in hackneyed fashion by Google:

For a year after the plenary, after a meeting on the possibility of a third typical edition of the Missal by teachers residents of liturgy in Rome and another, also in Rome in January 1992, to which were invited representatives of the international commission for liturgical translations for the French language (CIFTL), English (ICEL) and German (IAG), who were already working to prepare new editions of the Missal for their respective languages [18]. The purpose of the meeting of January 1992 was to submit by the Congregation its pre-draft of what is thought to do in the third typical edition, to know directly affected by the status of their ongoing work, for dialogue, exchange information and reflect together on the third typical edition of the Missal.

[18]For the Spanish language is Portuguese and that the situation was different: the first, was recently published the Ordinary of the Mass, all the other Missal the Brazilian and Portuguese were in print.:hypno:

Lacking confidence that the Spanish language is Portuguese, I copied the original Italian.

18 Per la lingua spagnola, infatti, e quella portoghese la situazione era diversa: per la prima, era stata da poco pubblicato l’Ordinario della messa comune, per l’altra i Messali brasiliano e portoghese erano in corso di pubblicazione.

So it appears (from my nonexistant Italian) that the ordinary of the mass had recently been published in Spanish, and was in the process of being published in Portuguese. For this reason, the translation commissions for those languages (if any) were apparently not invited to participate at the event in question, and unhappily for us, were not named.

IAG: Internationale Arbeitsgemeinschaft der Liturgischen Kommissionen im deutschen Sprachgebiet, according to John Allen.

I’m not sure whether this link works, but the New Westminster Dictionary of Liturgy and Worship, previewed with an Amazon book search, lists only the three commissions I named.

In the case of English(ICEL), French(CIFTL), and German(IAG), a number of nations have formed mixed commissions to do this work.

Although it certainly is a much less monumental task to translate from Latin into Spanish than into German or English, I’m still a bit surprised there is no commission - if indeed that’s the case. And French is also rather close to Latin, yet apparently they felt the need to form a commission.

Here is a Mexican document, Ponencias Encuentro from the XVIII Encuentro Nacional de Comisiones Regionales y Diocesanas de Liturgia, which essentially repeats what I had cited earlier from the Italian site. But no mention that I could see of a Spanish-language commission.

 

[kurtmasur]

18 Per la lingua spagnola, infatti, e quella portoghese la situazione era diversa: per la prima, era stata da poco pubblicato l’Ordinario della messa comune, per l’altra i Messali brasiliano e portoghese erano in corso di pubblicazione.

With the help of my fluent Spanish, and my study of Latin and French, I generally understand Italian when I read it. So here’s my rough translation: (by all means correct me if I’m wrong)

For the Spanish language, …, and for that of Portuguese, the situation was different: in the first case, the Ordinary of the Mass had already been recently published, and for the other case (Portuguese), the Brazilian and Portuguese missals were in the process of being published.

 

[kurtmasur]

Couldn’t it also be “Dios de los ejercitos?” I believe I have heard that phrase before. I am curious as to how the Roman Missal from Spain’s episcopal conference words the Sanctus. I will say this, though, the Spanish-language version of the Gloria is more accurate than what we have right now in English. At least the new translations bring us into conformity with the Latin text.

I am curious to see if the proposed US-version of the Spanish-language Roman Missal took Liturgiam Authenticam into consideration. Does anyone know if their is a Spanish-language equivalent to ICEL?

Yes, some hymns use “Dios de los ejercitos”, meaning “God of the armies”.

In further addressing PacoG’s complaint of “Dios del universo” I decided to look up “universo” in the official Spanish dictionary of the Royal Academy of Spanish (www.rae.es)). Interestingly enough it defines “universo” as “mundo” (world) as a conglomeration of “all things created”.

Furthermore, in latin “universus” (-a/-um) means “all”.

And if Sabbaoth can mean "“an appellation of the Lord as ruler over all”, then perhaps “Dios del universo” is actually a decent translation for “Deus Sabbaoth”

 

[Digitonomy]

The November 2002 bulletin of the Comision Nacional de Liturgia - Chile, on the occasion of the release of the new GIRM, states

En muy probable que la versión de España (castellana) será distinta de la de América (español de América); además la Santa Sede desea que haya una versión común para un grupo de países. El texto deberá ser revisado y aprobado por cada Conferencia episcopal, luego confirmado por la Santa Sede, luego todo el trabajo de impresión y distribución… Se necesitará esperar por lo menos varios años antes de que salga la edición en nuestro idioma de este nuevo Misal Romano.

This inspired me to check out CELAM, which seems the most likely organization to coordinate translations limited to Latin America. I was unable to find anything about the translation of the GIRM, but there is apparently work on a new translation of the Bible into the Spanish of the Americas. I notice that what seems to have kicked this off was the USCCB contributing $900,000 toward the project.
Historia de la Formacion y Actividades del Equipo Responsable y Traductores de la Biblia de la Iglesia en America (BIA)

There are also some publications I saw at their site, such as Laudes y Visperas and Ceremonial de los Obispos that seem to be published (and presumably translated) by CELAM - the latter book has “CELAM” on the cover.

 

[benedictgal]

The November 2002 bulletin of the Comision Nacional de Liturgia - Chile, on the occasion of the release of the new GIRM, statesThis inspired me to check out CELAM, which seems the most likely organization to coordinate translations limited to Latin America. I was unable to find anything about the translation of the GIRM, but there is apparently work on a new translation of the Bible into the Spanish of the Americas. I notice that what seems to have kicked this off was the USCCB contributing $900,000 toward the project.
Historia de la Formacion y Actividades del Equipo Responsable y Traductores de la Biblia de la Iglesia en America (BIA)

There are also some publications I saw at their site, such as Laudes y Visperas and Ceremonial de los Obispos that seem to be published (and presumably translated) by CELAM - the latter book has “CELAM” on the cover.

CELAM is the Latin American Eipiscopal Conference, which covers the Spanish-language countries of the New World (Mexico. Honduras, Guatemala, Argentina, Peru, Cuba, El Salvador, the Dominican Republican, Venezuela, Chile, Panama and, even Puerto Rico (even though it is a US territory), I believe. There may be a couple of others that I missed. Brazil is part of CELAM, even though that country’s language is Portuguese. The reason I am somewhat aware of this conference is because the Holy Father participated in the CELAM meeting last year in Brazil.

But, back to this thread I started. Inasmuch as I am leery of ICEL, I think that it might not be a bad idea if such an organization existed for the Spanish-language episcopal conferences. It might help solve translation quagmires like my dear friend and fellow Longhorn classmate Paco raised. This may actualy be to the conferences advantage since the commission would be using Liturgiam Authentican as its starting point.

 

[DixitDominus]

Can anyone tell me the Words of Consecration in the approved Spanish translation of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy?

 

[kurtmasur]

But, back to this thread I started. Inasmuch as I am leery of ICEL, I think that it might not be a bad idea if such an organization existed for the Spanish-language episcopal conferences. It might help solve translation quagmires like my dear friend and fellow Longhorn classmate Paco raised. This may actualy be to the conferences advantage since the commission would be using Liturgiam Authentican as its starting point.

I would like to point out just one thing. In Mexico’s Misal Romano it is stated in one of the official correspondence letters between the Holy See and CEM that the Ordinary of Mass is specifically approved for use in ALL Spanish speaking countries (including Spain). The local exceptions like “ustedes” in place of “vosotros” are pointed out in a separate letter but nothing more. Saying the “ustedes” form in Mexico is only understood to be permitted even if not actually printed in the Ordinary. So, considering that the Ordinary of the Mass for all spanish speaking countries is exactly the same everywhere, I think that perhaps having an equivalent of ICEL for the Spanish language isn’t really needed since there is already an “official” existing unity of the language for the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

Can anyone tell me the Words of Consecration in the approved Spanish translation of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Liturgy?

The Mexican Episcopal Conference (CEM) Roman Missal that we use in the United States has “tomad y comed” and “tomad y bebed”. In Mexico, the CEM usees “tomen y comen” and “tomen y beben”.

The USCCB has already approved a Spanish-language Roman Missal for use in our country; however, they are working to complete the English version of the Roman Missal so that both documents can be sent to Rome together for the necessary recogitio from the Holy See.

 

[Digitonomy]

I think that it might not be a bad idea if such an organization existed for the Spanish-language episcopal conferences. It might help solve translation quagmires like my dear friend and fellow Longhorn classmate Paco raised. This may actualy be to the conferences advantage since the commission would be using Liturgiam Authentican as its starting point.

Funny you should mention that, since the sentence immediately before the passage I quoted from Chile states

Los traductores ya están ahora trabajando, debiendo tener en cuenta las exigencias nuevas formuladas por la V Instrucción “Liturgiam authenticam” de 2001.

Unfortunately, it doesn’t say where such traductores may be from.

kurtmasur:

In Mexico’s Misal Romano it is stated in one of the official correspondence letters between the Holy See and CEM that the Ordinary of Mass is specifically approved for use in ALL Spanish speaking countries (including Spain).

The first Misal Romano I found on Amazon was apparently published by the Mexican Episcopal Conference, as you say, and seems to date from 1975, even though the most recent printing was 2001 and there is also a 1999 date on the page for some reason. Is this the one you’re referring to?

Shrunk to conserve space: I found the latest Spanish translation of the GIRM which is apparently published by the Jesuits in Mexico under their Buena Prensa label. Apparently it’s part of a subclass of their books called Cuadernos Somelit. However, there is also on the Amazon title, “Traduccion preparada por la Comision …” which is unfortunately truncated. I’m curious whether the unnamed commission is a Jesuit group, a Mexican group, or perhaps the multinational group we’re looking for.

There is also the Leccionario Edition Hispanoamerica, published in 1982 by the Northeast Catholic Pastoral Center for Hispanics (in New York), republished by the Benedictines in Collegeville,MN in 1994. Its main text is from La Biblia Latinoamerica by Ramon Ricciardi and Bernardo Hurault, 1972. But it also says “Language usage was drawn from the Lectionary Pueblo de Dios published by the National Office of Liturgy of Peru”, and “Other texts copyright 1970, Comision Episcopal Espanola de Liturgia.”

Anyway, what I have so far failed to find is the “unified” 1989 translation of the Roman missal noted in my posts above, and which seems to be expanded upon a little by Ponencias Encuentro, which I linked earlier:

En enero de 1992 hubo otro encuentro al que fueron invitados representantes de las
Comisiones internacionales para las traducciones litúrgicas para la lengua francesa (CIFTL), inglesa (ICEL) y alemana (IAG), que trabajaban ya en la preparación de nuevos Misales en sus lenguas respectivas.

Para la lengua española se había publicado hacía poco (en México, 10 de abril de 1989) el texto unificado, lo mismo pasaba con los misales de Portugal y Brasil…

Es la que tenemos ahora. Sólo que en los países de lengua castellana usamos una versión unificada desde el 3 de diciembre de 1989.

De hecho, muchas de las cosas nuevas que presenta el Misal 2000 ya las teníamos nosotros en nuestro Misal unificado en castellano…

Pide el Decreto que las Conferencias Episcopales, del texto latino, preparen fieles versiones a sus lenguas, mejorando las precedentes.

If we could track down the “unified” translation, perhaps we could determine who did the actual translating, and whether it is in fact a multinational team such as the other languages mentioned.

 

[puzzleannie]

don’t have access to Spanish missal here, but from EWTN, idoma Espanol
ewtn.com/spanish/prayers/corpus_christi.htm#El%20Sacramento%20de%20la%20Sagrada%20Eucaristía
scroll to the bottom for the words of institution from Scripture

as with English versions, various Eucharistic prayers used at Mass have some minor variations

 

[kurtmasur]

The Mexican Episcopal Conference (CEM) Roman Missal that we use in the United States has “tomad y comed” and “tomad y bebed”. In Mexico, the CEM usees “tomen y comen” and “tomen y beben”.

The USCCB has already approved a Spanish-language Roman Missal for use in our country; however, they are working to complete the English version of the Roman Missal so that both documents can be sent to Rome together for the necessary recogitio from the Holy See.

Just a little correction to your post regarding the words of consecration used In Mexico: those words should be “Tomen y coman” (not “comen”, which literally means “they eat”) and “tomen y beban” (not “beben”, which means “they drink”). “coman” y “beban” are the imperative (command) forms to eat and to drink.

 

[kurtmasur]

The first Misal Romano I found on Amazon was apparently published by the Mexican Episcopal Conference, as you say, and seems to date from 1975, even though the most recent printing was 2001 and there is also a 1999 date on the page for some reason. Is this the one you’re referring to?

The Jesuits in Mexico are only authorized to publish CEM’s official liturgical books under their (the Jesuits) publishing house: Obra Nacional de la Buena Prensa. But nothing more. I doubt that the Jesuits themselves are involved with translating texts into Spanish. But…I think maybe if somebody emailed them they could provide the answer to your question about who actually produces (or produced) the Spanish translation of the Ordinary for the Mass.

And yes, the Misal Romano I’m referring to is copyrighted 1999. There it has the letter between the Holy See and CEM that I refer to, in which the Holy See grants permission for the use of “ustedes” for use in all Mexican dioceses, even if “ustedes” is never actually printed in the Ordinary.

However, this official unity in language that we see in the Ordinary doesn’t apply to the lectionary. CEM’s lectionary readings are actually all printed with the “ustedes” form.

 

[kurtmasur]

And yes, the Misal Romano I’m referring to is copyrighted 1999. There it has the letter between the Holy See and CEM that I refer to, in which the Holy See grants permission for the use of “ustedes” for use in all Mexican dioceses, even if “ustedes” is never actually printed in the Ordinary.

Sorry, I meant to say the letter that I was referring to was the one that states that the Spanish-language Ordinary of the Mass is approved for all countries. I got a little confused with so much information.

 

[Digitonomy]

But…I think maybe if somebody emailed them they could provide the answer to your question about who actually produces (or produced) the Spanish translation of the Ordinary for the Mass.

That seems like a good idea. I’ll work on composing a proper Spanish inquiry on the topic and send it out this weekend.

By the way, I had earlier assumed that Ponencias Encuentros was a document title such as the Holy Father uses, e.g. Deus Caritas Est, Evangelium Vitae, etc. Looking it up just now, I find it means “Meeting Papers.”