Vasectomy and respecting my wife's catholic faith

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rpp said:
And you base this on what? That attitude is certainly contradicted in the Bible. God killed a man for contraception (Genesis 38). Clearly God is not indifferent
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Oh please.
God punished Onan for disobeying his command. We all know that.
 
To the OP:

When I was still a Protestant, I had my tubes tied. It was the worst decision of my life. My DH and I STILL regret that decision with all of our hearts.
DON’T DO IT.
 
AeroChunky said:
Oh please.
God punished Onan for disobeying his command. We all know that.
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The command was to bear children with his brother’s widowed wife. He contracepted, God punished him.

Interesting that you did not respond to the rest of my post.

Nor have you really answered what changed, God or society?

But then, I expect as much from a hit-and-run poster.
 
rpp said:
The command was to bear children with his brother’s widowed wife. He contracepted, God punished him.

Interesting that you did not respond to the rest of my post.

Nor have you really answered what changed, God or society?

But then, I expect as much from a hit-and-run poster.
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Here we go, the name calling has begun.

Some of us work you know. The rest of your post was a statement, not a question…

As for the rest of your post…Catholics says that when you contracept you use your spouse as an object of lust and you lie to each other.

That is, again, subjective reasoning.
Sexual intimacy is definitely being very open and close to your spouse. If both of you are of the same mindset there is no lies. Both of us agree that it’s far better for us not to have more kids…what we have we can handle…barely.

Choosing contraception is to be honest enough with each other to accept that we can’t handle more, but we do not want to deny our spouse. This way we experience the intimacy and love that brings two married people together and firms and strengthens the bonds of marriage.

In intimacy one gives all of yourself to your spouse…that is the essence of intimacy. this “lie” that I supposedly tell is just not a fact.

I also answered your other question…God is indifferent to contraception.

Onan’s sin was disobedience to a command…just like the poor sod who tried to steady the Ark and touched it disobeyed a command of God.

Contraception is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, even though the concept and practice thereof was definitely the order of the day. Animal intestines fashioned rudimentary condoms…herbs were used as contraception since the Egyptian eras.

All these rules are just reasoned out by men who never married and have no idea of the stresses and burdens of childbirth and rearing.

Catholicism looks good on paper, but in practice there is definitely areas where it does not translate into practice.

There, are you happy that I answered your questions?

I don’t want you to think that I’m a hit-and-run poster, now do I?
:rolleyes:
 
Well, I’m done for the day folks, I’m heading home.

Have a happy Halloween.

rpp, I posted this for your benefit so that you don’t think I’m hitting and running again.

Just to be sure, mmk?
 
My wife and I were in a similar situation. Despite going through all the NFP education, practicing it strictly and very carefully, we got pregnant three years in a row and are in over our head. We cherish and adore our three kids and sure as heck appreciate them. We wouldn’t send 'em back or trade 'em for the world.

However, we don’t want more and we disagree with Church teaching on this matter. We went through the usual guilt, self-loathing, and I posted a thread that got hundreds and hundreds of replies about NFP and our feelings about it. We got slammed and reamed by hundreds of folks using the usual CAF and EWTN talking points about how we’re hypocritical cafeteria Catholics and how our marriage would be ruined and forever marred.

When my wife and I went to the hospital we had a crisis. The baby was breached and a cesarian last minute was necessary. My wife had a horrific reaction to the surgery and panicked in the operating room. It shocked and terrified her. Then the anasthesia caused a reaction with my wife. My son had to be pulled out kicking and screaming with that little suction device. My wife would not open her eyes or take a breath properly prompting nurses and doctors to call back the anasthesiologist. He was concerned. My wife would wake up or breathe. I thought I’d lose her that morning. Well, she finally woke up and breathed, and was a real mess. During it all, she wanted a tubal ligation. I supported her 100% and our priest totally understood. We got counseling on it and felt good about the decision we made.

You need to make sure that whatever you do, you do it with your wife’s full knowledge. You’re in a terrible situation having divergent beliefs on this issue. I’ll be sure to pray for ya! If you want to PM me and talk about it, you have a sympathetic ear.

Our sex lives were RUINED AND TORMENTED by NFP for three years. We hated it and don’t believe in it whatsoever.

I don’t recommend, however, that you go get a vasectomy without her knowing at this point and you need to get some counselling from your church, her church and do some more prayer, meditation and think this over long and hard.

I do know the pitfalls of NFP and I think it lacks common sense. I know I’ll be trashed, bombed, scorched, and maimed by a horde of folks in here after saying this, but it’s how we felt.

NFP looks great on paper but the length of time you’ll go without sex is silly and unnecessary. A healthy sex life is not all of a marriage but it’s very important.

I see nothing wrong with the vasectomy and it is your body, you’ve had three kids, but you need buy-in from your wife and need to come to a consensus. This kind of stuff just tears up a marriage.

Did you know about NFP and her philosophy before you married or did she come to it later?

Best of luck, God bless! PM me if you need to!
 
rpp said:
And you base this on what? That attitude is certainly contradicted in the Bible. God killed a man for contraception (Genesis 38). Clearly God is not indifferent.

Rather it is YOU deciding that this is something YOU want to do and it is YOU who are indifferent to God’s commandments.

A husband who contracepts or cooperates in contracepttion is merely using his wife as a sexual plaything. The same is true for the wife. It is not an expression of love, it is a denial and it is use. There is no self donation, just selfishness.
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Poppycock. That’s ludicrous. My wife and I completely disagree and there are a lot of loving couples who have strong, healthy, romantic, close marriages who contracept. Using your wife as a sex toy if you contracept is typical guilt trip tripe. Boloney.
 
johnhahn said:
We currently have 3 children together.
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Do you consider them a blessing from God?
We have attempted to practice natural family planning, although our 3 children were conceived while we were trying to prevent conception with NFP - my wife and I went to all the NFP classes and according to the instructor, we were following the NFP rules correctly.
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The sympto-thermal method is statistically shown to be 100% effective, if followed. You might get another opinion as to how you’re following the rules.

Nonetheless, other methods have no greater effectiveness. I know someone who, after a vascectomy, got her wife pregnant. Hmmmmm…go figure.

I also know two gentlemen that had to have their testicle removed because of infections they contracted during their vasectomy. This turned out to be a rather drastic measure to keep from having any more children, which I don’t think any man would recommend.

If you think intercourse now is infrequent, after losing their testicles, these men didn’t even want to have sex anymore. Something to think about. I knew these men personally and can tell you if they had to do it all over again, they wouldn’t have taken the risk, no matter how small the brochures portray that risk to be.
Most evangelical / protestant churches do not condone or speak against birth control - some members use it, others are against it.
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Yes, but before 1900 it would have been difficult to find any organized Protestant body defending the moral lawfulness of contraception. All Protestant Christian communities used to believe contraception was a grave sin, as did all of the Protestant Reformers. Such changing moral beliefs among Protestants are not well rooted in sound Christian theology, nor do they agree with the founders of Protestant Reformation. See more here.
"…would my wife be sinning if I go through with the operation with her knowing?
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She is obliged to attempt to talk you out of committing such serious sin, according to Matt 18:15ff. If she does not assent to your sin, she is not sinning.

Matt 18:15ff - "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
What if I don’t tell her? - this is hypothetical, as I would surely tell her before I went through with it.
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If you didn’t tell her, she is not culpable for your sin, much like the case of adultery.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Poppycock. That’s ludicrous. My wife and I completely disagree and there are a lot of loving couples who have strong, healthy, romantic, close marriages who contracept. Using your wife as a sex toy if you contracept is typical guilt trip tripe. Boloney.
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This, and your post above it, are excellent. Good for you and your wife. This is an intensly personal decision. Folks need to remember that while it is oh-so easy to armchair-quarterback someone else’s life, actually living it day to day is something else again.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Poppycock. That’s ludicrous. My wife and I completely disagree and there are a lot of loving couples who have strong, healthy, romantic, close marriages who contracept. Using your wife as a sex toy if you contracept is typical guilt trip tripe. Boloney.
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You can disagree if you like, but statistics are not with you. The divorce rate among couples who do not contracept is below 10%. Compared to the national average of approximately 50%.
 
rpp said:
The divorce rate among couples who do not contracept is below 10%. Compared to the national average of approximately 50%.
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Interesting. Where did you find that statistic?
 
rpp said:
You can disagree if you like, but statistics are not with you. The divorce rate among couples who do not contracept is below 10%. Compared to the national average of approximately 50%.
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Ughhhh! Terrible use of statistics…but typical.

–Rico
 
rpp said:
You can disagree if you like, but statistics are not with you. The divorce rate among couples who do not contracept is below 10%. Compared to the national average of approximately 50%.
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Could it also be that the couples that do not contracept are mostly Catholic and are not allowed to divorce?
The statistic may be tainted by outside rules enforced on their marriage.
 
AeroChunky said:
Could it also be that the couples that do not contracept are mostly Catholic and are not allowed to divorce?
The statistic may be tainted by outside rules enforced on their marriage.
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**There is no “enforcing” going on. There are no Church Police who track down divorcees and flog them in public:rolleyes:

Plus, divorce is allowed but not encouraged. It is remarriage/adultery that is a sin… but still no Church Police:shrug:
**
 
kage_ar said:
Back up this claim from official Catholic documents (that Catholics are not allowed to divorce).
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How about these ones:

CCC
(first half) 2384 Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign.

2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society.

2400 Adultery, divorce, polygamy, and free union are grave offenses against the dignity of marriage.

So, what I’m saying is that based on these outspoken writings against divorce, many Catholics are hampered in divorce where the same couple, if they were not Catholic, would maybe have gone ahead with it?

And guys, please…note I said “Could it also be” meaning that I’m wondering about the statistics and their validity…I’m not outright disputing it so that I need to be called out and asked for back-ups…but then, I did it anyway:p
 
AeroChunky said:
Could it also be that the couples that do not contracept are mostly Catholic and are not allowed to divorce?
The statistic may be tainted by outside rules enforced on their marriage.
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The divorce rate among Catholics is, sadly, approximately the same as divorce rates overall. The problem is that many people who identify themselves as Catholic do indeed use contraception. The reasons are varied, but many attribute the primary reason to poor instruction and ignorance leading people to, wrongly, think that contraception is a personal choice rather than a very grave sin.
 
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