Vasectomy for medical reasons, high risk pregnancies..anyone deal with this?

[jwashu]

I’m not entirely sure that Fr. Vincent is actually morally correct in his opinion. To my knowledge, when the pill is used for medical reasons the woman needs to be non-sexually active - whether she is single or married. Its not just the abortive effects of the pill that make it illicit for a Catholic - it is also the refusal being open to life.

Some of the apologists on this site (and others like it) are not quite as apologetic as the Holy Father & Holy Church intends. Sometimes they themselves were improperly catechized, but sometimes they bend and disregard the rules to ‘gain’ more people to the Church. It may not be popular, but one cannot be wrong morally by refusing to take birth control (of whatever type). However, it is entirely possible to be morally wrong by taking birth control (of whatever type). I, for myself, would MUCH rather err on the side of caution (and life for my unborn children)! I also tend to find better moral answers of this type on EWTN’s Q&A - particularly the pro-life one. However, even on EWTN there are some that dissent from the Truth. Popular culture has invaded our clergy as well as our members.

No that is not correct. If the PRIMARY use for the pill is for medical reasons then the secondary effect, (birth control) is morally neutral. I studied our Faith a great deal before my conversion and while I’m not an Apologist I have never seen Fr. Serpa be incorrect on anything. Some of the others… possibly but not Fr. Serpa.

 

[HouseArrest]

Hi HouseArrest,
Sorry I’m not familiar with what TTA means and I’m not sure I’m catching what you are saying. So is it that abstaining during the wife’s fertile period is seen as a sacrifice or offering?

Trying To Avoid a pregnancy. I’m looking at it like this - it is unneccessary to worry about the infertile time, pregnancy is not possible. If a couple is infertile does that mean they never have sex? Of course they can. So when I’m infertile for two weeks, why would it be a sin?

 

[dkoinzan]

Abstaining is not fun! We did it for close to a year after two of our children were stillborn. It isn’t the end of the world though. We worked hard to find out what was wrong with me and I worked to get health. I had a constant fertile show. In the end we were able to go on to have our sixth baby who was my fourth c-section. Most of my pregnancies were high risk. The point of the matter is that children are treasures and I would gladly give my life for any or all of them. In the end I would hate to get to St. Peter and find out God’s will for me was more children and I said “NO.” Even worse would be to find out because of my fear I had somehow killed one. I think that the most awesome Mother is the one who gives her life for the life of her child, like St. Gianna. I want to be around to get my babies raised, but what if it were my death that would show them how to get to heaven.

 

[jwashu]

Would that mean that while Texas Ryan may not have a vasectomy because there is no medical reason, his wife could go on the pill because there is a medical reason? Or is a high risk pregnancy considered a medical reason?

I think I am starting to see the logic, just need more clarification.

Peace
F

When it comes down to that though the pill has a LOT of risks as women get older in regards to cancer etc… and I’m glad NFP works for most of you, for others it just won’t - there are always exceptions for every rule.

To the OP, you know what the Church teaches but you also know your situation. My suggestion - Pray about this. Spend some time at an adoration chapel in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Talk to your priest and maybe even multiple priests. I believe God wants children to grow up with 2 parents.

What decision you make is between you and God. I don’t pretend to fully know the Will of God. However, like Kierkegaard’s “Knight of Faith,” I believe we can be called to do things through Faith that seem to go against our reasoning.

Joe

 

[shannyk]

Fr. Serpa’s response was spot on correct, morally you’d be sound heeding his advice. I’m surprised yet again to see people debating this based on their ‘opinions’.

On another note, have you considered consulting another doctor? Perhaps a doc specializing in high risk obstetrics or a Catholic ob/gyn if you can find one?

NOT giving medical advice here, but, you have to realize docs are very risk management oriented. His advice to you has a lot to do with his high HIGH malpractice insurance rates. He’s likely not giving a toot about your moral convictions, and he just might not be giving you sound medical advice either. I think it’s a bit beyond his scope of practice to say ‘no more pregnancies’ and tell you to get a vasectomy. He’s to give diagnosis and options, not orders to patients.

What I’m saying is, get another opinion. Breech births and repeat c-sections are nothing to scoff at, but they might not be the death sentence he’s claiming they are. Get a second opinion AND regardless of that, learn a method of NFP as everyone else suggested.

 

[Texas_Ryan]

For the sake of the discussion, our OB GYN is a female pro-life doctor. She has been a blessing to our family. My wife had been going to the same male doctor all her life and got this new doc as a referral from a friend.

The Doctor’s first priority the the health of her paitent, my wife. When she tells us that further pregnancies would be harmful to mother and baby, we listen. She told us that if we did not have a scheduled c-section for the first baby, (it was breech feet first, then sideways), mother and baby would have had severe problems.

We are not going to shop for a medical opinion until we get the one we want. A woman’s relationship with her OB GYN is far beyond my understanding.

Needless to say, I trust this Doctor with my wife’s life and our babies.

Abstinence would make for a very rocky marriage.

If NFP did not work and we had a problem, I would never get over it. As parents, we have an obligation to be there for our kids. I am not going to put my wife’s health at risk. She has inconsistent ovulation and we can never have a normal cycle.

I am going to take this to our priest. Maybe speak to several.

 

[BiologyBrain]

For the sake of the discussion, our OB GYN is a female pro-life doctor. She has been a blessing to our family. My wife had been going to the same male doctor all her life and got this new doc as a referral from a friend.

The Doctor’s first priority the the health of her paitent, my wife. When she tells us that further pregnancies would be harmful to mother and baby, we listen. She told us that if we did not have a scheduled c-section for the first baby, (it was breech feet first, then sideways), mother and baby would have had severe problems.

We are not going to shop for a medical opinion until we get the one we want. A woman’s relationship with her OB GYN is far beyond my understanding.

Needless to say, I trust this Doctor with my wife’s life and our babies.

Abstinence would make for a very rocky marriage.

If NFP did not work and we had a problem, I would never get over it. As parents, we have an obligation to be there for our kids. I am not going to put my wife’s health at risk. She has inconsistent ovulation and we can never have a normal cycle.

I am going to take this to our priest. Maybe speak to several.

I think the relationship your wife has w/ her ob/gyn is a good one. I don’t doubt your wife’s ob/gyn as being sincere & a pro-life woman at all. However, sometimes it is still best to get 2nd (and even 3rd opinions) especially when its such a touchy/moral subject. This is a life-changing event for both of you.

You mention that you couldn’t get over it if NFP didn’t work & you had a problem. Well, none of the other methods (except complete abstinence) are 100% either. Basically, the way I feel is that morally, NFP (very conservative) is the best answer for your problem. If I were you I’d look into the Pope Paul VI Institute & their options. For a small fee you can send your wife’s medical history and NFP charts (if available) to Dr. Hilgers & have him give his expert opinion on a resolution for the issues at hand. At the Institute they have a unique way of looking at many ob/gyn problems that even sincere pro-life doctors don’t consider b/c its not main-stream and taught in med school.

I think it would be a great idea to speak to several priests. I would also advise you to pray long and hard before making any type of final decision. I’m sure the latter is already underway for you & your wife, but it never hurts to reinforce! Good luck & you sound like you’re probably already on the right track. It just helps sometimes to know there are others out there who are going through similar things as you and/or support you even if its just in prayer.

 

[mizznicole]

Just because a doctor is anti-abortion doesn’t make them pro-life, kwim? This is a common evangelical position (pro-contraception, but anti-abortion). Just something to consider.

 

[mark_a]

I got my answer in the ask an apologist, but wanted to get some thoughts from others.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=350200

The Doctor has said no more pregnancies. Both have been high risk due to breech. Both have been c-section due to the breech and an inverted cervix which would make natural birth very dangerous for mother and baby.

The Doctor suggested I get snipped as opposed to messing with female hormones. I want to do the right thing. The thought of a celibate marriage seems impossible.

I’m going to talk to our Priest about it, but wanted to hear from some others.

I haven’t read the entire thread, so please excuse me if this information has already been passed along:

There is a link between vasectomy and dementia. It has something to do with antibodies attaching to the sperm that’s being dumped into your own body and affecting the brain.

Just google vasectomy and dementia

 

[Jennifer_J]

For the sake of the discussion, our OB GYN is a female pro-life doctor. She has been a blessing to our family. My wife had been going to the same male doctor all her life and got this new doc as a referral from a friend.

The Doctor’s first priority the the health of her paitent, my wife. When she tells us that further pregnancies would be harmful to mother and baby, we listen. She told us that if we did not have a scheduled c-section for the first baby, (it was breech feet first, then sideways), mother and baby would have had severe problems.

We are not going to shop for a medical opinion until we get the one we want. A woman’s relationship with her OB GYN is far beyond my understanding.

Needless to say, I trust this Doctor with my wife’s life and our babies.

Abstinence would make for a very rocky marriage.

If NFP did not work and we had a problem, I would never get over it. As parents, we have an obligation to be there for our kids. I am not going to put my wife’s health at risk. She has inconsistent ovulation and we can never have a normal cycle.

I am going to take this to our priest. Maybe speak to several.

Abstinence would only make a rocky marriage if you LET it. Many marriages have to be abstinent for various reasons–it’s not a death sentence…or a recipe for divorce.

I also hate to tell you that NFP works, regardless of cycle irregularity for almost all women. NFP has you looking for fertility signs, it’s not based on calendars or when you ‘should’ ovulate. You look for signs of ovulation. With the need to avoid, then you would abstain until all the signs point to past ovulation (temps, mucous, cervix, fertility monitors, etc.) It is rare for NFP to not work for a woman and there are at least 4 variations of NFP to follow. I don’t understand the utmost belief in surgery, pills and plastic, but heaven forbid that NFP might actually work. How would you feel if you got one of the procedures or pills and THEY would fail? It happens, you know. The only 100% foolproof, no pregnancy activity is ABSTINENCE. If you have sex and have all organs in place, then it is possible that a baby could result.

 

[Sr_Sally]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I’m not shopping for an answer saying it’s ok, just looking for others experiences.

I know when my wife was younger, she had severe cycles and had to be on the pill because she was losing so much iron.

Also, she has odd ovulation cycles. It’s a wonder we did not get pregnant sooner!

We had to get a fertility monitor. Not to share too much, but she was ovulating on day 6 for the first baby and day 12 for the second baby.

With odd cycles like that, NFP can be quite the challenge…

I don’t want to put her health at risk.

Please get her a copy of Fertility, Cycles and Nutrition. You can get it from the Couple to Couple league (they teach NFP). Read through it with her and help her implement their advice. They have had wonderful success with the nutritional changes they recommend.

 

[gardenswithkids]

We are not going to shop for a medical opinion until we get the one we want. …I am going to take this to our priest. Maybe speak to several.

Interesting–you are willing to talk to seveal priests for what might be various spiritual opinions but you aren’t willing to speak to another doctor for another medical opinion.

I don’t know your wife’s situation and we can’t give medical advice here, but I’ll share that I delivered a breech baby vaginally without any labor complications. A nurse told me that most other doctors would have insisted on my having a c-section, but I had old doc who was familiar and comfortable with delivering my baby breech. Everything went fine with my child’s breech delivery. I have gone onto have other normal (non-breech) deliveries. I’m very glad that I avoided a c-section as it seems that repeated c-sections are often part of the reason why some women are told by their doctors that future pregnancies present a health risk.

…Needless to say, I trust this Doctor with my wife’s life and our babies…

Am I correct that this is your wife’s doctor, not yours? Think about it–you’re getting medical advice from a doctor who is not your doctor, who specializes in caring for women (not men), who suggested that you consider having your male reproductive parts sliced apart? I suggest you see a Catholic pro-life doctor for* yourself* and discuss all the potential side affects of vasectomies. Since you can’t imagine life without sex, you might not want to take a chance at impotency, prostate cancer, permanent groin pain, etc., etc… Do the research. Setting moral theology aside, vasectomies may not be the harmless procedure some might lead you to believe.

 

[Seatuck]

For the sake of the discussion, our OB GYN is a female pro-life doctor. She has been a blessing to our family. My wife had been going to the same male doctor all her life and got this new doc as a referral from a friend.

The Doctor’s first priority the the health of her paitent, my wife. When she tells us that further pregnancies would be harmful to mother and baby, we listen. She told us that if we did not have a scheduled c-section for the first baby, (it was breech feet first, then sideways), mother and baby would have had severe problems.

We are not going to shop for a medical opinion until we get the one we want. A woman’s relationship with her OB GYN is far beyond my understanding.

Needless to say, I trust this Doctor with my wife’s life and our babies.

Abstinence would make for a very rocky marriage.

If NFP did not work and we had a problem, I would never get over it. As parents, we have an obligation to be there for our kids. I am not going to put my wife’s health at risk. She has inconsistent ovulation and we can never have a normal cycle.

I am going to take this to our priest. Maybe speak to several.

Ok, so you won’t shop for a medical opinion that you want but you will shop for the moral opinion that you want?

 

[Texas_Ryan]

Ok, so you won’t shop for a medical opinion that you want but you will shop for the moral opinion that you want?

How am I shopping for a moral opinion? I have not talked to the Priest yet. Asking strangers on an internet message board is not shopping for the opinion I want. How do know the opinion I want anyway?

Are you saying the doctor is wrong?

She has

Irregular ovulation cycles
Inverted cervix
Breech babies
2 c sections

You can find a wacky doctor that will tell you anything. Just like you can find a priest (Father Pfleger in Chicago), who will validate anything.

I would not seek medical advice from a priest much like I would not give the doctor a confession.

I started this thread to see if anyone else has been in the situation.

 

[Seatuck]

How am I shopping for a moral opinion? I have not talked to the Priest yet. Asking strangers on an internet message board is not shopping for the opinion I want. How do know the opinion I want anyway?

Are you saying the doctor is wrong?

She has

Irregular ovulation cycles
Inverted cervix
Breech babies
2 c sections

You can find a wacky doctor that will tell you anything. Just like you can find a priest (Father Pfleger in Chicago), who will validate anything.

I would not seek medical advice from a priest much like I would not give the doctor a confession.

I started this thread to see if anyone else has been in the situation.

I’m not questioning the diagnosis. I do question your Pro-life doctor suggesting you get a vasectomy. I’m not questioning you and your wife prayerfully deciding that you cannot risk another pregnancy . Your comment that you would speak to several priests suggests you would be looking for one to agree . That’s what struck me about the post. Perhaps it was unfortunate wording on your part but I see I wasn’t the only one to read it that way.

Church teaching is clear. Even if you find 10 priestst to agree.
I understand this is a difficult cross to bear. I think that many couples have gone before and made it out ok. Many babies have been born through the grace of God with more difficult problems being present as well. It is your right to not take that risk. But you must follow God’s plan for marriage and not break the natural law by mutilating yourself. You are rushing to accept a life of abstinence when It is not clear you must at this point. But if that is the situation then God will take care of you and your marriage if that is the case. This is what he died on the cross for. To show you the way to die to your self and your difficulties. You can do this. With His help.

 

[HouseArrest]

I don’t know what is so frightening about NFP. It’s information. There’s more good that comes of it beyond avoiding or acheiving pregnancy. I have read many posts on this board alone that credit NFP with diagnosing health issues.

It might be difficult to believe that it works, mainly because people make fun of it and our culture scoffs at it. Even so, I don’t know how someone can discredit NFP without even going to a class. Why not contact the Institute and get the information? What is there to lose? Sometimes I think people don’t want it to work. Not you, maybe, but I get that feeling on a lot of threads like these.

 

[shannyk]

How am I shopping for a moral opinion? I have not talked to the Priest yet. Asking strangers on an internet message board is not shopping for the opinion I want. How do know the opinion I want anyway?

Are you saying the doctor is wrong?

She has

Irregular ovulation cycles
Inverted cervix
Breech babies
2 c sections

You can find a wacky doctor that will tell you anything. Just like you can find a priest (Father Pfleger in Chicago), who will validate anything.

I would not seek medical advice from a priest much like I would not give the doctor a confession.

I started this thread to see if anyone else has been in the situation.

See I don’t understand this. I mean, if your wife had some other life threatening condition, would you not seek the opinion of another doctor just because the first one is nice?

Sure, you have a relationship with your doctor, a working relationship. They are providing you a service. I don’t care how nice she is, how much of a blessing she seems to be, she’s being paid to provide you health care. I’m glad she’s trustworthy, and nice, and those docs are hard to come by, but ANY GOOD DOCTOR will not mind and in fact will encourage if not suggest patients get second opinions. I’m not sure if you’re afraid you’re gong to offend her? but really, who cares. If your wife’s life truly is at risk? You will consult several priests but not more than one doctor?

This is not a matter of shopping for the diagnosis you want, this is a matter of different doctors with different perspectives and educations and experiences. Medicine is very much an art, there is much that is beyond standard care that varies doc to doc and patient to patient.

As for other people being in this situation, I know there are a few ladies here who use NFP to avoid due to serious life threatening medical issues. I know my own mother had 7 c sections and was told after one (me) not to have any more children. This was in the day of the old rhythm method so, yeah, there were more pregnancies. She had neurological and heart problems that meant she had planned c-sections and was hospitalized for a good part of the later part of her pregnancies.

I’m also not sure why you think a vasectomy is foolproof. I’m not sure why you assume NFP would be akin to total abstinence.

I think you need more information all around.

 

[shannyk]

I don’t know what is so frightening about NFP. It’s information. There’s more good that comes of it beyond avoiding or acheiving pregnancy. I have read many posts on this board alone that credit NFP with diagnosing health issues.

It might be difficult to believe that it works, mainly because people make fun of it and our culture scoffs at it. Even so, I don’t know how someone can discredit NFP without even going to a class. Why not contact the Institute and get the information? What is there to lose? Sometimes I think people don’t want it to work. Not you, maybe, but I get that feeling on a lot of threads like these.

because it means they have to actually do something to change their behavior. it’s like loosing weight, people search and search for the right miracle cure and what it comes down to is changing behavior, behavior that we convince ourselves we can’t control.

 

[Good_Daughter]

Hi Texas Ryan

Like your wife, I have irregular menstrual cycles. Although I’m currently due with baby #5, my husband and I intend, for very serious reasons, to avoid pregnancy in the future.

Our plan is to use NFP in a conservative way. If we have any doubts about my fertility, we will certainly abstain. If my cycles are tricky to decipher, we’re looking at lots of abstinence.

One thing that makes abstinence more bearable is that I’ve learned there are times when the most life-giving love doesn’t involve sex. Sacrifice, it seems, is the foundation of authentic love. It can be tough to put that in to practice, but the joy that enters a relationship centered on the teaching of our Lord is indescribable.

God bless you and your wife.

 

[PeterMuz]

Thanks for answering my question Jennifer. So, it looks like it comes down to two reasons…

1. Each act of the marital embrace must be objectively procreative

Doesn’t the use of methods like NFP for years on end ultimately interfere with a couple’s chances of being objectively procreative? Not in the same way as the other ways you mention but the result is none the less the same. We have figured out how to have sex without getting pregnant. Which is fine because of the unitive benefits for the couple.

1. Sterilization mutilates healthy body parts and makes them not work properly for no reason other than non-fertility.

This is fine but we have to be careful where we draw the line on this. When is surgery ok, and not ok? Is it ok to give someone else a kidney? What about breast reduction surgery? Cleft lip? Etc. I haven’t looked, there may be some guidance in the Catechism about this.

This is obviously a well established teaching of the church and I’m not out to change it. It doesn’t really effect me. I have my children am now single and celibate and plan on being so for the rest of my life.

However, If I were someone who is married and had been told that a pregnancy could be fatal I would feel very differently about the strength of the reasoning behind these teachings. NFP is not 100% effective of course and a celibate marriage would be very damaging to the couple.

NFP does not interfere with a couple’s chances of being objectively procreative. You are still being open to life. By using NFP you are not taking any steps to control you fertility, but you are leaving it to God, the way it should be. You are right, NFP is not 100%, but is something like 98.5% use effective, which means, when used properly you will not get pregnant.

The difference with steralization or contraception is that you are taking you fertility into your own hands and telling God you know better than he does. I know you were not exactly endorsing contraception but you last sentence would be a little concerning.

I was actually taking to a friend last night and she said that her mother was told it was life threatening to have more children. That was before she gave birth to the friend I was talking to. Maybe someone should post a thread talking about doctors orders v trusting God. Maybe I will do that.

Point is, you have to trust God and you have to be open to life, which means you cannot be sterilized or use contraception. “Open to life” does not mean that you only have sex when the woman is fertile, but just that you do not take any steps yourself to control your fertility.