Vassula Disinvited

[Ghosty]

And the priest who knowingly communes her.

Assuming he knows her, and has reason to believe she hasn’t recanted her questionable positions, yes.

Then again, we have nothing here but Fr. Ambrose’s hearsay that she even communes regularily in any Church at all, so it’s a matter of speculation either way. All we know for certain is that she has been spoken against by the CDF, and she’s been excommunicated from the Greek Orthodox Church. I think that it’s silly to try and use her situation, as speculative and unusual as it is, against either Communion. Heck, I don’t even know how comfortable I am speculating on her worthiness or unworthiness to receive the Eucharist.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Joe_Monahan]

Off-topic, but welcome back, John. Haven’t seen a post from you in about 2 weeks and was getting concerned. I also notice you’re posting from back home - hope you’re enjoying a good visit.

Everyone else,

Let’s keep in mind that Vassula drives your Mod up a wall and that he has a low tolerance for discussion of her, thinking that there’s not much worth saying that hasn’t been said already. Regardless of where she is communing and by whom, it’s relatively clear that neither the Orthodox nor the Catholics are anxious to claim her.

As to the Mansours (Claire and Dr. Antoine), sponsors of this event, they are Maronite Catholics who became Vassula enthusiasts after a falling-out with Myrna Nazzour, whose first US visit they sponsored. They also have past history with both Medjugorje and with an Australian “visionary” named Debra Geileskey, who heads up something called the Magnificat Meal Movement.

Joe

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Ghosty:

Assuming he knows her, and has reason to believe she hasn’t recanted her questionable positions, yes.

Then again, we have nothing here but Fr. Ambrose’s hearsay that she even communes regularily in any Church at all, so it’s a matter of speculation either way

From Vasoula Ryden’s letter addressed to Father Prospero Grech, Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, in response to a letter she received from Cardinal Ratzinger, 4th April 2002:

Here in Rome I live out from the centre and quite far from my Greek Orthodox Church which is in the centre of Rome. There is a Slavic Orthodox church at the Tre Fontane, which I attended but I do not understand the language. And so I allow myself once in a while, since half of the time I am away, to receive Holy Communion in the Sanctuary of the Madonna del Divino Amore which is 3 km from my place. I believe the Second Vatican Council allows me to do this when, as reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic church says: "a certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged” (CCC 1399).

tlig.org/cdf.html

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Fr Ambrose:

From Vasoula Ryden’s letter addressed to Father Prospero Grech, Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, in response to a letter she received from Cardinal Ratzinger, 4th April 2002:

Here in Rome I live out from the centre and quite far from my Greek Orthodox Church which is in the centre of Rome. There is a Slavic Orthodox church at the Tre Fontane, which I attended but I do not understand the language. And so I allow myself once in a while, since half of the time I am away, to receive Holy Communion in the Sanctuary of the Madonna del Divino Amore which is 3 km from my place. I believe the Second Vatican Council allows me to do this when, as reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic church says: "a certain communion in sacris, and so in the Eucharist, “given suitable circumstances and the approval of church authority, is not merely possible but is encouraged” (CCC 1399).

tlig.org/cdf.html

But that still would not make her a Catholic. Absent mortal sin, a Catholic can always rec. Holy Communion and doesn’t need the special approval of church authority. This approval is only needed by a non-Catholic,ie, if she was a Catholic, she wouldn’t be making an appeal to the exception, now would she?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

JKirkLVNV:

But that still would not make her a Catholic. Absent mortal sin, a Catholic can always rec. Holy Communion and doesn’t need the special approval of church authority. This approval is only needed by a non-Catholic,ie, if she was a Catholic, she wouldn’t be making an appeal to the exception, now would she?

Vasssoula IS, by Catholic theology, in mortal sin. She has remarried while her first husband is still alive and is living in adultery.

How can she recieve communion when all other people in that parish in her marital situation would be denied it?

 

[Forest-Pine]

Fr Ambrose:

Vasssoula IS, by Catholic theology, in mortal sin. She has remarried while her first husband is still alive and is living in adultery.

How can she recieve communion when all other people in that parish in her marital situation would be denied it?

However, if she remains an Orthodox (excommunicated from the sacraments though she may be), would the Orthodox rule concerning divorce and remarriage apply, or the Catholic one?

This seems to favor the position that she remains Orthodox with a dispensation of some sort from the Catholic church to receive communion there (whether by a right understanding of the canon or a naive or defiant priest–that I do not know.)

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Forest-Pine:

However, if she remains an Orthodox (excommunicated from the sacraments though she may be), would the Orthodox rule concerning divorce and remarriage apply, or the Catholic one?

Interesting question! Does the Catholic teaching of the indissolubility of marriage apply to Roman Catholics but not to the Orthodox or Eastern Catholics?

 

[Forest-Pine]

Fr Ambrose:

Interesting question! Does the Catholic teaching of the indissolubility of marriage apply to Roman Catholics but not to the Orthodox or Eastern Catholics?

I do not know the Eastern canons concerning this (if she converted to Catholicism I believe she would automatically be under the Eastern canons). However, I do know that a Latin Catholic who receives communion in an Eastern Catholic church is still held to the western canons (for instance: fasting) and is still able to present himself for communion in the EC church when following the RC canons. It would seem to work in the other way as well that an EO or EC who was receiving communion in a RC church would be expected to follow eastern canons–which would include marriage.

That would be a somewhat circular answer though, as it would bring us back to the fact that under the eastern canons she would be unable to receive communion (being excommunicated and all).

I looked up canon 1399 (as you quoted earlier) and do not think it is the one that applies to the Orthodox being able to receive a dispensation to communion. I am curious as to its wording because I wonder if it says something to the effect of “An Orthodox, unable to receive communion in his own church, may request communion from the Roman Catholic Church” or some such. If that is the case, one could argue that being excommunicated would constitute not being “able” to receive in an Orthodox church. (Though I would not want to be the one arguing such a position!)

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Forest-Pine:

I do not know the Eastern canons concerning this (if she converted to Catholicism I believe she would automatically be under the Eastern canons). However, I do know that a Latin Catholic who receives communion in an Eastern Catholic church is still held to the western canons (for instance: fasting) and is still able to present himself for communion in the EC church when following the RC canons. It would seem to work in the other way as well that an EO or EC who was receiving communion in a RC church would be expected to follow eastern canons–which would include marriage.

I’d like a second opinion please. Do Catholics acknowledge that the Orthodox have a right to divorce and remarriage? And is an Orthodox person in a second marriage entitled to Catholic communion?

Is the Catholic rule about the indissolubility of a sacramental marriage applicable to Roman Catholics only?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Fr Ambrose:

Vasssoula IS, by Catholic theology, in mortal sin. She has remarried while her first husband is still alive and is living in adultery.

How can she recieve communion when all other people in that parish in her marital situation would be denied it?

Ya got me swinging, Father, I’ve no idea. I’m just saying she isn’t a Catholic.

 

[Ghosty]

Fr Ambrose:

I’d like a second opinion please. Do Catholics acknowledge that the Orthodox have a right to divorce and remarriage? And is an Orthodox person in a second marriage entitled to Catholic communion?

Is the Catholic rule about the indissolubility of a sacramental marriage applicable to Roman Catholics only?

It’s my understanding that this is actually a very complicated matter, and I’ve heard answers that contradict eachother even from people who have been involved in the marriage recognition/annulment process for Orthodox involved in the Catholic Church. There is also quite possibly practical differences between Roman recognition and Eastern Catholic recognition, going back to the canons of the Council of Trullo.

Peace and God bless!

 

[Carlos_Palad]

When was Vassula excommunicated by the Greek Orthodox Church?

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

When was Vassula excommunicated by the Greek Orthodox Church?

I hope this will be helpful…

The GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH has issued the following statement (the original is in Greek) on its official website regarding Vassula Ryden.

ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

Synodal Commission on Heresies and Sects.

"The Commission, having examined the evidence, has reached the conclusion that Vasoula Ryden is excommunicated from the Orthodox Church, although she still presents herself as a member.

"In addition it should be known that the Church periodical “Dialogue” has printed extensive reports regarding Vasoula Ryden’s organisation.

"Vasoula has asked the Greek Minister of Justice to bring to trial for slander and libel both the Secretary of the Greek Orthodox Synodal Commission on Heresies, Fr Kyriako Tsoiro, and the Church publication. The trial was scheduled for 30 June 2000; however Ryden withdrew the charge two days before the trial was due to commence.

---

There is more on the web site of the Greek Church but my Greek is far too bad to attempt a translation.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I am not even sure if it is true she is a Greek Orthodox laywoman. She is in a state of excommunication. No doubt the Greek Church hopes for her repentance but at this time one can’t say that she is Greek Orthodox without qualifying it.

The GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH has issued the following statement (the original is in Greek) on its official website regarding Vassula Ryden.

ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

Synodal Commission on Heresies and Sects.

"The Commission, having examined the evidence, has reached the conclusion that Vasoula Ryden is excommunicated from the Orthodox Church, although she still presents herself as a member.

"In addition it should be known that the Church periodical “Dialogue” has printed extensive reports regarding Vasoula Ryden’s organisation.

"Vasoula has asked the Greek Minister of Justice to bring to trial for slander and libel both the Secretary of the Greek Orthodox Synodal Commission on Heresies, Fr Kyriako Tsoiro, and the Church publication. The trial was scheduled for 30 June 2000; however Ryden withdrew the charge two days before the trial was due to commence.

Yes, the Orthodox and Latins seem to be rightly agreeing on this point, and taking appropriate action for their flocks.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Being excommunicated doesn’t mean one is no longer Catholic, it means one cannont take part in the Sacraments. It’s likely that in this case she remains Greek Orthodox but unable to receive Sacrements in that rite.

When one persists in the excommunication, one is cut off. To our mind, if she is regularly communing in the Latin church, she is Latin (the reason why we don’t allow intercommunion).

To be explicit, that she communes at a Latin church is why we consider her Latin, not because she was excommunicated. Since we have removed her from communion, we await you to do the same. Maybe the Protestants will have her.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Off-topic, but welcome back, John. Haven’t seen a post from you in about 2 weeks and was getting concerned. I also notice you’re posting from back home - hope you’re enjoying a good visit.

Everyone else,

Let’s keep in mind that Vassula drives your Mod up a wall and that he has a low tolerance for discussion of her, thinking that there’s not much worth saying that hasn’t been said already. Regardless of where she is communing and by whom, it’s relatively clear that neither the Orthodox nor the Catholics are anxious to claim her.

As to the Mansours (Claire and Dr. Antoine), sponsors of this event, they are Maronite Catholics who became Vassula enthusiasts after a falling-out with Myrna Nazzour, whose first US visit they sponsored. They also have past history with both Medjugorje and with an Australian “visionary” named Debra Geileskey, who heads up something called the Magnificat Meal Movement.

Joe

It would seem that we are agreed that it is questionable if she is Orthodox or Catholic (or orthodox or catholic) in any sense of those terms.

 

[Carlos_Palad]

I hope this will be helpful…

The GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH has issued the following statement (the original is in Greek) on its official website regarding Vassula Ryden.

ecclesia.gr/greek/holysynod/commitees/heresies/heresies-0008.htm

Synodal Commission on Heresies and Sects.

"The Commission, having examined the evidence, has reached the conclusion that Vasoula Ryden is excommunicated from the Orthodox Church, although she still presents herself as a member.

"In addition it should be known that the Church periodical “Dialogue” has printed extensive reports regarding Vasoula Ryden’s organisation.

"Vasoula has asked the Greek Minister of Justice to bring to trial for slander and libel both the Secretary of the Greek Orthodox Synodal Commission on Heresies, Fr Kyriako Tsoiro, and the Church publication. The trial was scheduled for 30 June 2000; however Ryden withdrew the charge two days before the trial was due to commence.

---

There is more on the web site of the Greek Church but my Greek is far too bad to attempt a translation.

Father, bless!

I clicked on the link you provided but, apparently, it has been removed from the said site.

Actually, if the Orthodox were more vocal against Vassula, then maybe Rome will finally take strong measures to keep her and her followers and teachings out of Catholic churches and communities.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Father, bless!

I clicked on the link you provided but, apparently, it has been removed from the said site.

Actually, if the Orthodox were more vocal against Vassula, then maybe Rome will finally take strong measures to keep her and her followers and teachings out of Catholic churches and communities.

A combined Catholic-Anglican initiative wanted to bring her to New Zealand and contacted me expecting I would want to be involved. I referred them to the Greek Archdiocese in America who told them that Vassula was a charlatan who refused any guidance from the Orthodox Church and had been excommunicated. Their project did not proceed.