G
GRod
Guest
Hello. Does anyone have any church father quotes that support the vatican 2 teaching that there is no salvation outside the church but that you can still be invincibly ignorant about the church and be saved
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
H
HeDa
Guest
Documents from Vatican II found here.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
Look into documents Nostra Aetate and Ad gentes. Lumen gentium has a bit on mission work that could interest you as well. All the rest are good to read. Remember that all Church documents are to be read in context and the world looked a bit different 50 years ago than it does today.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/index.htm
Look into documents Nostra Aetate and Ad gentes. Lumen gentium has a bit on mission work that could interest you as well. All the rest are good to read. Remember that all Church documents are to be read in context and the world looked a bit different 50 years ago than it does today.
Emeraldlady
New member
Bearing in mind that that tenet is Scriptural first and foremost. Romans 2,
12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
12 All who have sinned apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.
G
Genesis315
Guest
St. Augustine:
It bears pointing out, Vatican II does not teach that non-Christians can be saved (the Fathers don’t either). Rather, it teaches that “God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him” (Ad Gentes 7).”
Vatican II defines this faith as “an obedience by which man commits his whole self freely to God, offering the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals, (4) and freely assenting to the truth revealed by Him.” (Dei Verbum 5)
In particular, this means faith in Christ, since Christ “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65); “what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son” (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross). See also CCC 161.
Even if in good conscience, people in non-Christian religions cannot have faith since they do not assent to God’s revelation–they simply do not believe what God has revealed. Their belief is merely “religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself” and therefore “the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held.” (Dominus Iesus 7).
Likewise, heresy–the deliberate denial of a revealed truth by a Christian–destroys faith altogether, since one is no longer assenting to God the revealer, but trusting one’s own judgment: “Since faith is one, it must be professed in all its purity and integrity.” (Lumen Fidei 48). On the flip side, because faith is one, if one has faith in Christ–who is the fullness of revelation–faith is not destroyed by innocent ignorance about the various articles of faith: “there is no difference in the faith of ‘those able to discourse of it at length’ and ‘those who speak but little’, between the greater and the less: the first cannot increase the faith, nor the second diminish it.” (Lumen Fidei 47, quoting St. Irenaeus).
Note, the above refers to Christians who appear outside the Church due to heresy, but because of their ignorance, are not actually separated heretics.But though the doctrine which men hold be false and perverse, if they do not maintain it with passionate obstinacy, especially when they have not devised it by the rashness of their own presumption, but have accepted it from parents who had been misguided and had fallen into error, and if they are with anxiety seeking the truth, and are prepared to be set right when they have found it, such men are not to be counted heretics.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102043.htm
It bears pointing out, Vatican II does not teach that non-Christians can be saved (the Fathers don’t either). Rather, it teaches that “God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him” (Ad Gentes 7).”
Vatican II defines this faith as “an obedience by which man commits his whole self freely to God, offering the full submission of intellect and will to God who reveals, (4) and freely assenting to the truth revealed by Him.” (Dei Verbum 5)
In particular, this means faith in Christ, since Christ “is the Father’s one, perfect and unsurpassable Word. In him he has said everything; there will be no other word than this one” (CCC 65); “what he spoke before to the prophets in parts, he has now spoken all at once by giving us the All Who is His Son” (CCC 65, quoting St. John of the Cross). See also CCC 161.
Even if in good conscience, people in non-Christian religions cannot have faith since they do not assent to God’s revelation–they simply do not believe what God has revealed. Their belief is merely “religious experience still in search of the absolute truth and still lacking assent to God who reveals himself” and therefore “the distinction between theological faith and belief in the other religions, must be firmly held.” (Dominus Iesus 7).
Likewise, heresy–the deliberate denial of a revealed truth by a Christian–destroys faith altogether, since one is no longer assenting to God the revealer, but trusting one’s own judgment: “Since faith is one, it must be professed in all its purity and integrity.” (Lumen Fidei 48). On the flip side, because faith is one, if one has faith in Christ–who is the fullness of revelation–faith is not destroyed by innocent ignorance about the various articles of faith: “there is no difference in the faith of ‘those able to discourse of it at length’ and ‘those who speak but little’, between the greater and the less: the first cannot increase the faith, nor the second diminish it.” (Lumen Fidei 47, quoting St. Irenaeus).
Last edited:
D
Dovekin
Guest
Even if in good conscience, people in non-Christian religions cannot have faith since they do not assent to God’s revelation–they simply do not believe what God has revealed.
I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you trying to affirm Ad Gentes saying God “can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith…”? After quoting that, you seem to say non-Christians cannot have faith?the sacred books of other religions, which in actual fact direct and nourish the existence of their followers, receive from the mystery of Christ the elements of goodness and grace which they contain.
Dominus Iesus 8
DI, in the quote above, affirms that other religions “receive from the mystery of Christ…” That may not mean the fullness of Revelation offered by Christ, but it apparently is enough for faith. This is iargely repeating what Justin Martyr wrote::
Whatever things were rightly said among all men, are the property of us Christians. For next to God, we worship and love the Word who is from the unbegotten and ineffable God, since also He became man for our sakes, that, becoming a partaker of our sufferings, He might also bring us healing. For all the writers were able to see realities darkly through the sowing of the implanted word that was in them. For the seed and imitation imparted according to capacity is one thing, and quite another is the thing itself, of which there is the participation and imitation according to the grace which is from Him.
Justin Martyr 2nd Apology 13
All this holds true not only for Christians, but for all men of good will in whose hearts grace works in an unseen way. For, since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.
Gaudium et Spes 22
G
Genesis315
Guest
If a non-Christian is brought to faith in Christ, he would no longer be non-Christian. Of course, this can even happen at the “eleventh hour” (as Our Lord notes in the parable of the laborers in the vineyard) in a way known only to God. Non-Christians do not have faith because they do not assent to the truth revealed by God solely on the authority of the revealer, which is what theological faith is.
The elements of goodness found among those with an upright conscience who have yet to come to faith, lead to faith in Christ by the grace of Christ. They are seeds of the Word because they lead those of goodwill to faithful reception of the Word. As St Justin Martyr said, “For the seed and imitation imparted according to capacity is one thing, and quite another is the thing itself, of which there is the participation and imitation according to the grace which is from Him.”
God offers and makes concretely available to every single person the means of salvation, and that means always includes faith in Christ.
CCC:
The elements of goodness found among those with an upright conscience who have yet to come to faith, lead to faith in Christ by the grace of Christ. They are seeds of the Word because they lead those of goodwill to faithful reception of the Word. As St Justin Martyr said, “For the seed and imitation imparted according to capacity is one thing, and quite another is the thing itself, of which there is the participation and imitation according to the grace which is from Him.”
God offers and makes concretely available to every single person the means of salvation, and that means always includes faith in Christ.
CCC:
161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation.42 "Since “without faith it is impossible to please [God]” and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘But he who endures to the end.’"43
Last edited:
D
Dovekin
Guest
I am not trying to argue with you. I understand your position. I am just curious why you quoted Ad Gentes, which seems counter to your point. The interpetation you offered seems out of sync with the context.“Therefore those men cannot be saved, who though aware that God, through Jesus Christ founded the Church as something necessary, still do not wish to enter into it, or to persevere in it." Therefore though God in ways known to Himself can lead those inculpably ignorant of the Gospel to find that faith without which it is impossible to please Him (Heb. 11:6), yet a necessity lies upon the Church (1 Cor. 9:16), and at the same time a sacred duty, to preach the Gospel. And hence missionary activity today as always retains its power and necessity
Ad Gentes 7
The “inculpably ignorant who find faith” seems to me to contrast with those “who do not wish to enter” into the Church, but their status does not relieve the responsibility “to preach the Gospel.” IOW, they are not among who “cannot be saved” but somehow do not need to hear the Gospel to be saved. Yet does not make sense otherwise.
.
G
Genesis315
Guest
I think maybe we are saying the same thing? Ad Gentes says a person who culpably remains separated from the Church cannot be saved. Agreed.
It then says that God can lead those who are not culpable to what they need to be saved. Even though God could do it himself and does so in some cases, in His wisdom He wills the Church to seek the incorporation of all into the Church–both the culpable who might be persuaded to repentance and the inculpable who are brought what they desire.
It then says that God can lead those who are not culpable to what they need to be saved. Even though God could do it himself and does so in some cases, in His wisdom He wills the Church to seek the incorporation of all into the Church–both the culpable who might be persuaded to repentance and the inculpable who are brought what they desire.
D
Dovekin
Guest
Certainly I would not disagree with that.It then says that God can lead those who are not culpable to what they need to be saved. Even though God could do it himself and does so in some cases, in His wisdom He wills the Church to seek the incorporation of all into the Church–both the culpable who might be persuaded to repentance and the inculpable who are brought what they desire.
The issue is “what they need to be saved.” It describes it as faith, that faith “without which it is impossible to please God.” The implcation of the though…yet construction is, I think, that they can come to faith while being ignorant, or without the Church preaching to them. That sort of upsets the theological faith/belief distinction in DI.
I suspect the resolution is what St Justin offered, they have it but not as resplendently as the flowering in the Church. The Church is saying the ignorant might be saved, but we still have an obligation to reach out to them. Salvation does not complete the mission.
S
steve-b
Guest
As for the first part of the questionHello. Does anyone have any church father quotes that support the vatican 2 teaching that there is no salvation outside the church but that you can still be invincibly ignorant about the church and be saved
St Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, direct disciple of St John the apostle, wrote
The Church is
Catholic http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm ch 8
schismatics won’t be going to heaven http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0108.htm ch 3
the second part of the question
The ECF’s follow tradition, both oral and written, and tradition shows that Ignorance has always been a possible escape.
For example:
Heb 10:26-27
“if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,…”
IOW, before receiving specific knowledge of a certain act being sin, there is no sin.
It’s not saying someone is completely let off the hook, but it might let them off the hook
Last edited:
- Status
- Not open for further replies.