Vatican Against Immigration. Entry Denied to Priests with Wives and Children

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Fr_Ambrose

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**The Vatican Against Immigration. **
**Entry Denied to Priests with Wives and Children **

chiesa.espressonline.it/dettaglio.jsp?id=6984&eng=y

Interesting! Russia is hauled over the coals by the Vatican and accused of religious discrimination for trying to keep out foreign clergy who bring a different faith with them - but the Vatican is keeping out of Western Europe its own Catholic priests who bring not a different faith but their wives !!! :whistle:

PS: There is mention of this in another thread but it is not attracting much attention from Forum readers.
 
Father Ambrose,

This is old news - although I find it confusing that it’s carried under a current date. The article, according to the lower right corner, was written in 2003 (which is about right, as I recollect).

Many years,

Neil
 
Irish Melkite:
This is old news - although I find it confusing that it’s carried under a current date. The article, according to the lower right corner, was written in 2003 (which is about right, as I recollect).
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I saw today’s date and took it at face value… I follow the articles of Sandro Magister and had not seen this one before.

What has happened in the intervening two years? Has the Vatican succeeded in preventing these unwelcome priests from infiltrating Western Europe?

*Banned in Italy! *

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Vatican Against Immigration. Entry Denied to Priests with Wives and Children
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SO VERY TRUE!!!

…except perhaps that there is a certain level of discretionality among RC bishops in Italy: some keep their Ukrainian Eastern Rite priests and treasurize them, some keep them and ghettoize them, some simply do not give them a license to celebrate in their diocese…

Let me tell you about two examples of cities better left unnamed, to give the idea of how strange and complex may this phenomenon be in Italy.

CASE 1: When an Ukrainian Eastern Rite priest proudly arrived in the archdiocese of X to “minister to Eastern Christians”, the Archbishop told him that Eastern Christians in his diocese were about 98% Orthodox, as far as he could see, and since the other bishops in Italy were already too much involved in opening Ukrainian Catholic churches that were mostly frequented by Orthodox of the Moscow Patriarchate, there was really no reason to set up another such parish for a 2% minority that could attend the local Orthodox churches with the same ease.

CASE 2: When the Cardinal Archbishop of Y was approached by my bishop who asked a place of worship for the MP faithful (incidentally, a suitable place was not “found”, despite 1/3 of the RC places of worship in this large city are no longer officiated), he received my bishop and my dean in a very funny audience. The cardinal started praising his Eastern Rite priest (there is a largish Ukrainian immigration in the city), and admitted that yes, this priest was married, but “of course” his wife and children were still living in Ukraine. At the look of utter amazement from the bishop and the dean (a married priest himself), the cardinal started to justify his blooper by saying “Oh, but I allow him to see his family, and I send him one week-end a month back to Ukraine…” At this, our dean could not resist any longer, and asked “…just like football players, your Eminence?” His Eminence, whether he realized the pun or not, did not answer…
 
Padre Ambrogio:
SO VERY TRUE!!!

…except perhaps that there is a certain level of discretionality among RC bishops in Italy: some keep their Ukrainian Eastern Rite priests and treasurize them, some keep them and ghettoize them, some simply do not give them a license to celebrate in their diocese…

Let me tell you about two examples of cities better left unnamed, to give the idea of how strange and complex may this phenomenon be in Italy.

CASE 1: When an Ukrainian Eastern Rite priest proudly arrived in the archdiocese of X to “minister to Eastern Christians”, the Archbishop told him that Eastern Christians in his diocese were about 98% Orthodox, as far as he could see, and since the other bishops in Italy were already too much involved in opening Ukrainian Catholic churches that were mostly frequented by Orthodox of the Moscow Patriarchate, there was really no reason to set up another such parish for a 2% minority that could attend the local Orthodox churches with the same ease.

CASE 2: When the Cardinal Archbishop of Y was approached by my bishop who asked a place of worship for the MP faithful (incidentally, a suitable place was not “found”, despite 1/3 of the RC places of worship in this large city are no longer officiated), he received my bishop and my dean in a very funny audience. The cardinal started praising his Eastern Rite priest (there is a largish Ukrainian immigration in the city), and admitted that yes, this priest was married, but “of course” his wife and children were still living in Ukraine. At the look of utter amazement from the bishop and the dean (a married priest himself), the cardinal started to justify his blooper by saying “Oh, but I allow him to see his family, and I send him one week-end a month back to Ukraine…” At this, our dean could not resist any longer, and asked “…just like football players, your Eminence?” His Eminence, whether he realized the pun or not, did not answer…
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Not to be hostile, but how, Father, did you come by this information?
 
Fr Ambrose:
I saw today’s date and took it at face value… I follow the articles of Sandro Magister and had not seen this one before.

What has happened in the intervening two years? Has the Vatican succeeded in preventing these unwelcome priests from infiltrating Western Europe?
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Father Ambrose,

To the best of my knowledge, the situation remains status quo. I have no reason to doubt Padre Ambrose’s comments. Much the same situation prevails in a few other Western European countries from what I’ve heard.

I’ll inquire of a few of my knowledgeable UGCC confreres on the Byzantine Forum and see if I can get an update. (The problem seems to revolve chiefly around the Ukes, as they have had sizeable populations needing pastoral care after migration to the West for jobs; I’m unaware of any issue with regard to priests of my Church, but they are considerably fewer in number in these same countries.)

Many years,

Neil
 
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twiztedseraph:
Not to be hostile, but how, Father, did you come by this information?
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How could I ever perceive you as hostile, Seraph? 🙂

The first case was told by the Archbishop himself to our faithful in his town, when they had an audience with him; in the second case, being my bishop and my dean personally involved, I presume it’s quite evident who told me the story…
 
As a traditional Latin Catholic, this position deeply disturbs me. I want to throw in my support for our Eastern brothers.
 
Padre Ambrogio:
How could I ever perceive you as hostile, Seraph? 🙂

The first case was told by the Archbishop himself to our faithful in his town, when they had an audience with him; in the second case, being my bishop and my dean personally involved, I presume it’s quite evident who told me the story…
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Ah very good. One wonders whether said priest in second story had to leave family behind due to good reason…For example children of said Priest have friends, have no experience in that glorious italian tongue (which I studied for some time, excelled, then forgot…), or perhaps schooling was an issue, or maybe the wife was involved in some Church issues…Whatever the case it would be a bit harsh to jump to conclusions, despite the negative connotations of your stories 😃
 
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twiztedseraph:
Whatever the case it would be a bit harsh to jump to conclusions, despite the negative connotations of your stories 😃
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Of course, the point I was trying to stress is that situations are very different in various cities. The city of Y, however, is not the only case I have heard of a compromise by allowing the married priest to minister in Italy only if he leaves his family behind.

In fact, paradoxically, it is not so much the fact of having a married neighbour (whether EO or EC) that may unnerve the typical RC parish priest in Italy, but rather the fact that such neighbour has a parish literally bursting with life, young people, packed full attendance, piety, and so on. Whether things will continue this way within a few generations, time only will be able to tell.
 
Padre Ambrogio:
Of course, the point I was trying to stress is that situations are very different in various cities. The city of Y, however, is not the only case I have heard of a compromise by allowing the married priest to minister in Italy only if he leaves his family behind.

In fact, paradoxically, it is not so much the fact of having a married neighbour (whether EO or EC) that may unnerve the typical RC parish priest in Italy, but rather the fact that such neighbour has a parish literally bursting with life, young people, packed full attendance, piety, and so on. Whether things will continue this way within a few generations, time only will be able to tell.
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Very true…While the Celibacy of Priests is indeed a great tradition, it is a lower case “t”. Thus it is changeable, whether or not I’m for changing it…well I feel it moves too far from Catholic Culture and what would we do with the family of said Priest? Unlike the Orthodox, we don’t have iconostasi so the Priest would be very visable during the service, where would we put his family and what part would they play in the liturgy? We have a new Parish secratary and she gave all the lector jobs to her teen children, while this may indeed be a sign of faith it doesn’t look good to have but one family running one mass…

Just some thoughts.
 
**At closing synod Mass, pope defends priestly celibacy

**By John Thavis
Catholic News Service
In his remarks about the synod’s work, the pope touched briefly on the issue of priestly celibacy, which was strongly affirmed by the synod despite acknowledgment of a priest shortage in some parts of the world.
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“The celibacy that priests have received as a precious gift and the sign of undivided love toward God and neighbor is founded on the eucharistic mystery, celebrated and adored,” the pope said.
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catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506041.htm
 
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twiztedseraph:
Unlike the Orthodox, we don’t have iconostasi so the Priest would be very visable during the service, where would we put his family and what part would they play in the liturgy?
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…and so, at last, you discover one of our best concealed secrets: that the altar area is one of the few remaining reserves where the married Orthodox priest may escape the supervision of his loving wife (hence the name “sanctuary”, which survived in the Western usage…), and that the (historically always growing) iconostasis was developed to protect him from being whipped by the presbytera! 😛
 
Padre Ambrogio:
…and so, at last, you discover one of our best concealed secrets: that the altar area is one of the few remaining reserves where the married Orthodox priest may escape the supervision of his loving wife (hence the name “sanctuary”, which survived in the Western usage…), and that the (historically always growing) iconostasis was developed to protect him from being whipped by the presbytera! 😛
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LOL, whipped, I wonder how Father David would appreciate this exchange? Or mayhaps he’s grounded for not washing his vestments properly…

Do the nuns punish you Father if you don’t keep your cell clean? 😃
 
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twiztedseraph:
Do the nuns punish you Father if you don’t keep your cell clean? 😃
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I have more reasons for fearing God’s punishment when I don’t keep my soul clean… :o
 
[Unlike the Orthodox, we don’t have iconostasi so the Priest would be very visable during the service, where would we put his family and what part would they play in the liturgy? We have a new Parish secratary and she gave all the lector jobs to her teen children, while this may indeed be a sign of faith it doesn’t look good to have but one family running one mass…]

Would you please translate this for me? The priests wife and children have no other responsibilities than to attend church and practice their Orthodox Catholic faith like the rest of the congregation.

Our new priest is in his early thrities and comes from Kiev. In addition to a Masters of Divinity he also has a masters in computer technology & physics. He speaks excellent English. He gave up a very high paying secular job and accepted a 50% cut in pay to be a full time priest. Which is all he ever wished to be. And what a priest he is!!!

His Matushka (wife) and two little girls are part of the congregation at every service. That’s all that is required of them.

Orthodoc
 
Cardinal Sodano tried to drive the married Ukrainian priests from Poland a few years ago (the article touched on it briefly, calling the place ‘Galicia’). The general attitude of the Western Hierarchy and the Curia seems not to have changed toward the Eastern traditions in the last 100 years. I was quite unaware of the recent destruction of the married priesthood in the Italo-Albanian church, which as the article states was complete from 1950 until 1970 when a bishop began ordaining married men once again without permission of the ‘higher ups’

To me this is an excellent indicator of what Orthodox could expect under a unified church controlled by the Vatican.

Until such time as the Western church can demonstrate fair treatment for the eastern churches under the Pope’s omophor, Orthodox Catholic churches should completely avoid the prospect. It is a no-win situation for the smaller Orthodox Catholic communion of churches.

+T+
Michael
 
“Completely avoid?” “NO win?” Pardon me, but a whole pile of red lights just went off on my spiritual dashboard…

As to the issue at hand, it is strange. We have married priest converts from Anglicanism here in the USA and nobody seems to think it will mean an end to celibacy.
 
Irish Melkite:
Father Ambrose,

This is old news - although I find it confusing that it’s carried under a current date. The article, according to the lower right corner, was written in 2003 (which is about right, as I recollect).

Many years,

Neil
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Thank you for point this out. My personal philosophy on such stories (especially in this day and age) is to discount and ignore any article that starts out as deceptive.

“Vatican Against Immigration” ???

This was not an article about immigration but about priestly celebacy.

Now you tell me they posted old news with a new date. Satan is the father of lies and I have better thing to do with my time.
 
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pnewton:
Thank you for point this out. My personal philosophy on such stories (especially in this day and age) is to discount and ignore any article that starts out as deceptive.

“Vatican Against Immigration” ???

This was not an article about immigration but about priestly celebacy.

Now you tell me they posted old news with a new date. Satan is the father of lies and I have better thing to do with my time.
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Not if the old news remains the same. If it was outdated news that has been rectified then you would have a valid complaint. If the news is still accurate the date does not matter. It’s still the most current response to the issue of celibacy.

Orthodoc
 
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