Vatican age of consent

[mcteague]

I came across this table on the age of consent worldwide. And no!, I am not planning on having sex with any minors. I just happened to follow a link.
In any event, it listed the age of consent in Vatican city as 12.
I found this rather baazar to say the least.
Can anyone confirm this, or explain why if it is accurate?
avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

 

[runningdude]

Mary, mother of our Lord was 12 years old when Gabrielle announced the good news.

If this website is in fact accurate, then it simply reflects that 12 years old was selected as the minimum worldwide age for marriage that the Church recognizes. In most countries, such as the US, its much higher (~16). But in some desperately poor countries, especially in that past where life expectancy can be only 20-30 years old, then the Church may permit children as young 12 to marry. By 16 they may be too frail .

Church law in Vatican city would not be overruled by the age of consent - absolutely no sex outside of marriage. With such a rigid rule in place, there is simply should not have been any logical need for elaborate age of consent laws, although today they have developed rigid guidelines in place to protect children.

However, as Vatican City has no jails, this age of consent law might play a role in whether offenders are simply kicked out of Vatican City, or handed over to the Italians and charged with statutory rape, in addition to any other necessary penalties.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

It sounds weird in today’s world but age 12 was not unheard of for girls to marry back in the day.And as the other poster points out, life expectancies differ-different times, different places.

 

[losh14]

I came across this table on the age of consent worldwide. And no!, I am not planning on having sex with any minors. I just happened to follow a link.

This link doesn’t give the full explanation.

Before you get creeped out, consider that according to this chart from George Mason University, the age of consent in the U.S. in the 1880s was as low as 7 (Delaware) and generally 10 or 12.

chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-sources/24

Why? Very different time and place - lifespans were shorter, and for a family with too many mouths to feed, marrying off an elder child would help the rest of the family survive. If you could go to work in a factory at 10, risking your life and limb for a pittance, why couldn’t you also marry?

Consider an opposite example - in China, as a population control measure - marriageable age is 20 for women and 22 for men. This is distinct from age of consent, but when we talk about age of consent in light of Catholic teaching, this must be taken as coequal with marriageable age.

The age of consent when the Vatican was established as a modern, independent state in 1929 was 12. This is because that was the age of consent in Italy - and at the time, it wasn’t unheard of for a 12-year-old to marry. It still isn’t unheard of in many less-developed nations, which is why Canon Law holds the age of consent (and of marriage) to the greater of 12 years or whatever the local age is.

In 2009, the Vatican began a policy of accepting changes to Italian law only upon review. This is understandable - it avoids the Vatican adopting increasingly pro-LGBT rights initiatives that had been making ground in Italian law. At that time, Italy’s age of consent remained at 12. With only ~560 citizens of Vatican City (and most of them likely celibate clergy) there’s not much reason to review this law. Wiki (sorry) suggests that only 43 of these citizens are lay people.

Subsequently, Italy changed the age of consent to 14, with the exception that a minor under the age of 13 met consent with someone who was no more than 3 years older. This “Romeo and Juliet” clause is what I find most disturbing - it allows sexual predation among younger children. I don’t think a 14-year-old is ready for the realities of sex and marriage, even though a 10- and 11-year-old could legally marry in Italy. I think the age of consent remains 16 in our state (Missouri) mostly because of the rural populations who tend to marry younger - or tend to have shotgun weddings more often.

Knowing all this, let’s think through the issue:

• If a crime occurs within Vatican City, it is tried by Italian courts according to Italian law. Thus, child molestation would fall under Italian law. So changing the Vatican age of consent would have no impact.
• If marriage occurs within Vatican City, it would have to satisfy the age of consent in the Vatican. Because there are only 43 lay people in the City, it is likely that all marriages taking place there are Catholic pilgrims who are wealthy enough to travel to the Vatican, and hence likely well past the age of consent. So changing the Vatican age of consent would have no impact.
• Americans tend to look at everything through an Amerocentric lens, and people tend to be predisposed towards ideas that support their frame of reference in the world. So an American evangelical who thinks the Catholic Church is a haven for pedophiles would have a field day with the Vatican age of consent. This might be a reason to change it (to 25, ha, let’s show those Chinese!), but I doubt it would decrease the perception that the child abuse scandal has fostered.

I hope this answers your question. Thank you for asking it.

 

[losh14]

However, as Vatican City has no jails, this age of consent law might play a role in whether offenders are simply kicked out of Vatican City, or handed over to the Italians and charged with statutory rape, in addition to any other necessary penalties.

Good point, I believe all criminal cases are handed over to the Italian police and tried under Italian Law.

 

[Brendan]

In the Church’s eyes, The “Age of Consent” is the same as the Age of Marriage (by definition).

And that would be 16 for males and 14 for females.

Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.

 

[mcteague]

Thank you all for very interesting and informative answers. Most things can be understood, and not just about the Catholic church, if we simply take the time to ask people with greater knowledge. And we don’t jump to conclusions.
Thanks again

 

[centurionguard]

In the Church’s eyes, The “Age of Consent” is the same as the Age of Marriage (by definition).

And that would be 16 for males and 14 for females.

Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.

Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.

I have no qualms in how the Church sees it…but its certainly not indicative of maturity in a 16 year old teen-aged boy or a 14 year old teen-aged girl. Hardly what I would term as a mature man or woman since they both don’t meet the legal requirements of matrimony unless the parents give them away in marriage.

I for one have a little difficulty fathoming the logical reasoning as to why the Church mainstays this section of Canon Law in today’s ultra modern age Sexual Revolution.

Respectively how can a 16 year old boy and 14 year old girl truly understand the profound moral aspects of Holy Matrimony and the Self-Sacrificial Love that is incorporated within it.

Many Adults can’t figure it out.

Peace
Chris

 

[runningdude]

I have no qualms in how the Church sees it…but its certainly not indicative of maturity in a 16 year old teen-aged boy or a 14 year old teen-aged girl. Hardly what I would term as a mature man or woman since they both don’t meet the legal requirements of matrimony unless the parents give them away in marriage.

I for one have a little difficulty fathoming the logical reasoning as to why the Church mainstays this section of Canon Law in today’s ultra modern age Sexual Revolution.

Respectively how can a 16 year old boy and 14 year old girl truly understand the profound moral aspects of Holy Matrimony and the Self-Sacrificial Love that is incorporated within it.

Many Adults can’t figure it out.

Peace
Chris

The Church’s standard applies worldwide. In countries that have this problem of the “sexual revolution”, the marriage age is higher (probably 16-17 in the US for both genders).

Plus, maturity is required, and its absence is grounds for declaring a marriage null.

 

[Viki63]

Mary, mother of our Lord was 12 years old when Gabrielle announced the good news.
.

How do we know this?
I always thought of her, and have seen her portrayed, as about 16 years old.

 

[centurionguard]

It’s really impossible to generalise on this. Years ago my cousin Jacinta married at 16 to a man about 15 years older. Much waving of hands and shouting about how it wouldn’t last ensued. Two decades later they probably have one of the strongest marriages I know. Amusingly enough her mother married at age 18 to a man in his 40’s and they too had a very strong marriage but she was concerned her daughter was getting married too young.

My paternal grandmother was married at age 15 and her husband was in his 30’s. That would be seen as creepy nowadays but both my grandfathers married twice and the second time they married women somewhat younger than themselves. On the other hand my mother was 5 years older than my father.

Hello Jharek;

I read and know of a number of these married situations similar to as you describe.
Most though to the best of my memory existed prior to the 1970’s and going back into the first and second World War and of course centuries and millenia in the past.

In rare instances however; I have heard of (“young”) marriages in the media, but usually it is rare at least in my recollection since the 1970’s. I suppose young marriages are in much higher occurrences in third world countries than in then western world and perhaps some in countries in the east.

Peace
Chris

 

[Petergee]

Sorry but most of you here have got the wrong end of the stick. “Age of consent” is a concept in the **civil **legal systems of some countries (many other countries have no such concept). It has nothing to do with the legal age of marriage, with canon law or with the moral law.

The only significance of the age of consent is that, in cases of alleged rape or sexual assault, the fact that the alleged victim was below a certain statutory age when the act took place, is itself deemed to be proof that the victim did not consent. This is called “statutory rape” and a charge of rape is proven even if it has been proven that the under-age victim willingly took part in the act without any force, threats or inducements.

 

[centurionguard]

Sorry but most of you here have got the wrong end of the stick. “Age of consent” is a concept in the **civil **legal systems of some countries (many other countries have no such concept). It has nothing to do with the legal age of marriage, with canon law or with the moral law.

The only significance of the age of consent is that, in cases of alleged rape or sexual assault, the fact that the alleged victim was below a certain statutory age when the act took place, is itself deemed to be proof that the victim did not consent. This is called “statutory rape” and a charge of rape is proven even if it has been proven that the under-age victim willingly took part in the act without any force, threats or inducements.

…

Hello Petergee;

I’m not ignoring what you wrote but (“Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.”) makes no mention about rape.

And Canon 1083 §1 is how the Catholic Church sees the (“Age of Consent”).
I don’t think its altogether a matter of ignoring civil and legal systems.

In the Catholic Church Canon Law supersedes civil legal systems but doesn’t ignore them altogether.

Peace
Chris

 

[ChadS]

…

Hello Petergee;

I’m not ignoring what you wrote but (“Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.”) makes no mention about rape.

And Canon 1083 §1 is how the Catholic Church sees the (“Age of Consent”).
I don’t think its altogether a matter of ignoring civil and legal systems.

In the Catholic Church Canon Law supersedes civil legal systems but doesn’t ignore them altogether.

Peace
Chris

I’m not sure why Canon law is even being talked about in this discussion. Petergee is correct to say that the “age of consent” more properly applies to civil laws rather than ecclesial laws and is used most often to prosecute people for statutory rape. Also, don’t you see a contradiction that the Vatican says age of consent is 12, but Canon law states the youngest a male can marry is 16 and a female is 14?

ChadS

 

[Petergee]

…

Hello Petergee;

I’m not ignoring what you wrote but (“Can. 1083 §1. A man before he has completed his sixteenth year of age and a woman before she has completed her fourteenth year of age cannot enter into a valid marriage.”) makes no mention about rape.

And Canon 1083 §1 is how the Catholic Church sees the (“Age of Consent”).
I don’t think its altogether a matter of ignoring civil and legal systems.

In the Catholic Church Canon Law supersedes civil legal systems but doesn’t ignore them altogether.

Peace
Chris

You are even more confused than most on this thread.

Of course the canon law about the age at which a valid marriage can be contracted says nothing about rape. I should hope marriage has nothing to do with rape! Canon Law says nothing about the “age of consent” which to give it its fullness means simply “age below which the civil law presumes that a person is incapable of wilfully consenting to sexual activity”. Canon Law certainly does not deny that a person is able to wilfully consent to marriage at younger ages than the arbitrary ages she sets for marriage.

And Canon Law does not “supersede” civil legal systems! This lie is peddled by some who unfairly attack the Church over the sexual abuse scandals. Canon Law exists to govern the workings of the Church and of her members in relation to the Church. Civil legal systems remain exaclty as they would be without canon law (although most of them in the West were originally largely based on canon law). The Church urges every man to obey and comply with the civil laws of his country except those laws which are plainly contrary to the universal moral law.

 

[roelblomsma]

Yeah, let’s hope everyone understands that this law was composed in times that a girl of 12 was simple ready to become a mother. I’d say a woman should mary when she has the mental notion of the responsabillity of this agreement. Let’s say after 19 years of age. The same counts for a man. I don’t see that a boy of 16 would fully comprehend the responsabillity of marriage.

 

[losh14]

Let’s note again that the Age of Consent - the civil and criminal code concept - was adopted by the Vatican when it accepted whilom Italian law. While it does appear odd that Canon Law prohibits marriage before 16 for men and 14 for women while keeping age of consent at 12, I think the Canon Law age is intentional while the civil law age is merely accepted. With so few persons of this age in the Vatican (indeed, are there any minors living in Vatican City?), and with any such persons under the protection of Italian law and subject to the protection of Italian police, does a statutory age of consent have meaning for the Vatican?

 

[centurionguard]

Yeah, let’s hope everyone understands that this law was composed in times that a girl of 12 was simple ready to become a mother. I’d say a woman should mary when she has the mental notion of the responsibility of this agreement. Let’s say after 19 years of age. The same counts for a man. I don’t see that a boy of 16 would fully comprehend the responsibility of marriage.

I don’t see that a boy of 16 would fully comprehend the responsibility of marriage.

NO! he most certainly would not, neither would a 14 year old girl.

But who knows…they certainly can’t do much worse than huge vast numbers of adults in the Catholic Church who regrettably end up in divorce.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

NO! he most certainly would not, neither would a 14 year old girl.

But who knows…they certainly can’t do much worse than huge vast numbers of adults in the Catholic Church who regrettably end up in divorce.

Good point.Back in the day, teens would marry & stay married til death did them part.
We knew a couple who married when the bride was 13 (pregnant) & they remained married until she died at 21 in a car wreck.( No, they weren’t Catholic.)
For all the marriage preparation stuff & dragging out the age of marriage til the late 20’s or more, what’s the success rate? It’s still a coin toss.Sad…

 

[markomalley]

I came across this table on the age of consent worldwide. And no!, I am not planning on having sex with any minors. I just happened to follow a link.
In any event, it listed the age of consent in Vatican city as 12.
I found this rather baazar to say the least.
Can anyone confirm this, or explain why if it is accurate?
avert.org/age-of-consent.htm

Maybe you could find the Vatican Law that confirms what this table says. Here is a link to all the laws of the Vatican City State.