Vatican commission gave mixed verdict on Medjugorje phenomena: report [CWN]

[zab]

For those who have been skeptical and therefore don’t know the contents of the first seven visits, can somebody reliably summarize them?

From Bishop Ratko Peric’s denfense of his predecessor, Bishop Zanic:
…From 1981 to 1993, he (Bishop Zanic)followed the “Medjugorje phenomenon” by establishing the First Commission from 1982 to 1984, followed by an extension of the same from 1984 to 1986.
As a Marian bishop, he was at first open to the “apparitions”. In his first statements, he defended the priests before the communist attacks as well as the possibility of Marian apparitions. He believed that the “visionaries” were having some inner experiences, but he was very careful that their subjectivity would not be replaced by supernatural “apparitions”.
That is to say, the so-called “apparition” in Medjugorje, known as “Our Lady” from the first moments of the so-called apparitions, appeared not only in a very strange fashion, but also in a way completely unworthy of the Immaculate Virgin Mary.[6] This behavior became even more worrisome in the following months when the “apparition” launched - through the self-proclaimed seers of Medjugorje - a series of charges against this faithful servant of the Church and very devout son of the Mother of God.
In response to many demands of the faithful regarding the behavior of the Medjugorje “apparition” during the initial period of the apparent apparitions in St. James parish, located in this diocese, as his successor, I feel obliged to present this faithful servant of the Church, thereby defending him from many lies and slander.[7] What follows is a collection of documentation between the period of December 1981 and January 1983, relating to a truly strange phenomenon that the “apparition” of Medjugorje, according to the documented statements of the “visionaries” and their “spiritual leader” Fr. Tomislav Vlašić, OFM[8] (who in 2009, due to serious offenses and misdeeds was dismissed from the Franciscan, OFM, order and laicized), directed various sharp threats and attacks against Bishop Pavao Žanić of Mostar-Duvno, while at the same time placing under its protection two Franciscans known for their disobedience towards the decisions of their Religious superiors and the Holy See…

See the entire statement from Bishop Peric md-tm.ba/clanci/attacks-medjugorje-apparition-against-diocesan-bishop-pavao-zanic

 

[zab]

For those who have been skeptical and therefore don’t know the contents of the first seven visits, can somebody reliably summarize them?

The First seven Days (From Bishop Peric)
md-tm.ba/clanci/first-seven-days-apparitions-medjugorje

 

[Fiasco]

…

Why have two shrines dedicated to Our Lady Queen of Peace so close to each other?
If you believe in this, that’s your thing, but i’ll stick with the two vilified bishops, Donal Foley and others.

Have a read of zab’s two posts, and click on his link.

 

[ProdigalSun]

Why have two shrines dedicated to Our Lady Queen of Peace so close to each other?
If you believe in this, that’s your thing, but i’ll stick with the two vilified bishops, Donal Foley and others.

Have a read of zab’s two posts, and click on his link.

Why not have two? Why does it have to be the same? I do believe in this! Our lady brought me back to the Church. It has a lot to do with my trip to Medjugorje. I have my story as well as many other people. I’m not sure why you call the bishops vilified. I have never read of or heard any vilification of the church on the contrary everyone always speaks of obeisance. If the Church would come out and demand that no one talk about or go to Medj anymore I would comply with this.

What I find hard to understand is why such a push against this. The church has not officially condemned anything about Medjugorje. They have taken the responsibility of the apparitions out of the bishops hands. The latest commission has given the early apparitions a vote of confidence. with a basic tie for the ongoing apparitions. The Church is smart in the fact it will not rush to judgments about any of this.

Time will tell what this is all about. The 10 secrets will really be the key to this whole thing. “The Blessed Virgin Mary has told the visionaries that the third secret will be a lasting sign placed on the Hill of Apparitions. All six visionaries know what the sign will be. They have said that it will be a beautiful, indestructible, permanent sign and all those who go to Medjugorje will be able to see it.” If this does not come to pass then we have a clear “SIGN” that this whole thing is false. But if it does come then what? What will you do then? I will still have my faith that was made stronger by my journey nothing will change that whether all of this is false or not. You will have missed one of the greatest moments of our time and not only that but actively fought against it. I think being skeptical of this phenom is healthy but to really understand it one must go there. I know I was very skeptical.

 

[Fiasco]

Why not have two? Why does it have to be the same? I do believe in this! Our lady brought me back to the Church. It has a lot to do with my trip to Medjugorje. I have my story as well as many other people. I’m not sure why you call the bishops vilified. I have never read of or heard any vilification of the church on the contrary everyone always speaks of obeisance.

The book “Medjugorje: The Message” brought me back to the Sacraments in 1990 after an absence from them of more than 20 years. A handful of years ago, i re-read parts of it, and the level of emotion in it came as a shock. Plus: a chapter almost entirely devoted to attacking (ie vilifying) Bishop Zanic was a disgrace!

God doesn’t allow evil unless He can bring good out of it, as is almost certainly the case with both of us.

There’s been a campaign of contempt for the legitimate authority of (the late) Bishop Zanic and Bishop Peric. Add disobedience to it…**and that includes the alleged “visionaries”!
That’s not from Heaven! **
St Pio submitted to the “requests” of his superiors, even though his superiors were wrong. In the end he was vindicated. He was canonised, not because of all of his mystical experiences, but because he led a life of heroic virtue, even while being persecuted.
Compare him with these “visionaries”, openly defying two bishops in succession!

What I find hard to understand is why such a push against this. The church has not officially condemned anything about Medjugorje. They have taken the responsibility of the apparitions out of the bishops hands. The latest commission has given the early apparitions a vote of confidence. with a basic tie for the ongoing apparitions. The Church is smart in the fact it will not rush to judgments about any of this.

Got the strong feeling you haven’t read or heard any decent “arguments” against this phenomenon. Those who reject it base their convictions on reason and Church teachings. Going by what i’ve seen online, the promoters rely a lot on emotion, and often resort to name-calling…not to mention the above-mentioned book.
You ought to go online and read comments by, say, Patrick Madrid, Jimmy Akin, Louis Belanger and Donal Foley, whose book “Medjugorje Revisted” is a real eye-opener.

The level-headed Mariologist, Fr Manfred Hauke: [You have to read a bit of the first one before you get to Fr Hauke.]

[catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-293.html

](http://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-293.html)catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2010/02/fr-hauke-respon.html

…a lasting sign placed on the Hill of Apparitions. All six visionaries know what the sign will be. They have said that it will be a beautiful, indestructible, permanent sign…

But if it does come then what? What will you do then?

The same as when the “Great Sign” over The Pines, long ago predicted by the fake “apparitions” in Spain, appears.

I will still have my faith that was made stronger by my journey nothing will change that whether all of this is false or not. You will have missed one of the greatest moments of our time and not only that but actively fought against it. I think being skeptical of this phenom is healthy but to really understand it one must go there. I know I was very skeptical.

And get caught up in all of the emotion, cheap trinket “miracles”, imagined “miracle of the sun” phenomena etc. Plus contributing to the pilgrimage and accommodation gravy train.

This short article is a sobering read:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7724

Did you read zab’s two posts, and click on his link? Shaking hands, clothing getting dirty…

The lies told by Vicka, Ivan and Marija.
Vicka’s flinching when supposedly in a state of ecstasy.
The entity sided with two disobedient Franciscans against the bishop, and even threatened him!!!
Fr Vlasic was appointed the “visionaries” spititual director, even though he’d fathered a child in 1976…eventually laicised, and now in a New Age cult.
**ETC
**
Having lost the (almost completed) first attempt to do this post, thanks to a provider’s failure, that’ll have to be it!!!
Scrappy and all!

 

[ProdigalSun]

The book “Medjugorje: The Message” brought me back to the Sacraments in 1990 after an absence from them of more than 20 years. A handful of years ago, i re-read parts of it, and the level of emotion in it came as a shock. Plus: a chapter almost entirely devoted to attacking (ie vilifying) Bishop Zanic was a disgrace!

**God doesn’t allow evil unless He can bring good out of it, as is almost certainly the case with both of us.**not sure what you mean by this.

There’s been a campaign of contempt for the legitimate authority of (the late) Bishop Zanic and Bishop Peric. Add disobedience to it…**and that includes the alleged “visionaries”!
That’s not from Heaven! **
St Pio submitted to the “requests” of his superiors, even though his superiors were wrong. In the end he was vindicated. He was canonised, not because of all of his mystical experiences, but because he led a life of heroic virtue, even while being persecuted.
Compare him with these “visionaries”, openly defying two bishops in succession!

Got the strong feeling you haven’t read or heard any decent “arguments” against this phenomenon. Those who reject it base their convictions on reason and Church teachings. Going by what i’ve seen online, the promoters rely a lot on emotion, and often resort to name-calling…not to mention the above-mentioned book.
You ought to go online and read comments by, say, Patrick Madrid, Jimmy Akin, Louis Belanger and Donal Foley, whose book “Medjugorje Revisted” is a real eye-opener.

The level-headed Mariologist, Fr Manfred Hauke: [You have to read a bit of the first one before you get to Fr Hauke.]

[catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-293.html

](http://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-293.html)catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2010/02/fr-hauke-respon.html

The same as when the “Great Sign” over The Pines, long ago predicted by the fake “apparitions” in Spain, appears.

And get caught up in all of the emotion, cheap trinket “miracles”, imagined “miracle of the sun” phenomena etc. Plus contributing to the pilgrimage and accommodation gravy train.

This short article is a sobering read:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=7724

Did you read zab’s two posts, and click on his link? Shaking hands, clothing getting dirty…

The lies told by Vicka, Ivan and Marija.
Vicka’s flinching when supposedly in a state of ecstasy.
The entity sided with two disobedient Franciscans against the bishop, and even threatened him!!!
Fr Vlasic was appointed the “visionaries” spititual director, even though he’d fathered a child in 1976…eventually laicised, and now in a New Age cult.
**ETC
**
Having lost the (almost completed) first attempt to do this post, thanks to a provider’s failure, that’ll have to be it!!!
Scrappy and all!

As with all stories throughout history there are usually a few different sides to each issue. with the truth being somewhere in the middle. The apparitions origins have all but been approved, PF delegate will give his pastoral recommendations sometime in June, A stopping of the diocesan ban has been recommended… etc. I think you are going to be disappointed with your assessment of where things ought to go. What ever happens now the truth will be revealed in the years to come.

Peace!

 

[Fiasco]

As with all stories throughout history there are usually a few different sides to each issue. with the truth being somewhere in the middle. The apparitions origins have all but been approved, PF delegate will give his pastoral recommendations sometime in June, A stopping of the diocesan ban has been recommended… etc. I think you are going to be disappointed with your assessment of where things ought to go. What ever happens now the truth will be revealed in the years to come.

Peace!

To start:
Did you click on any of those links, including zab’s one, and read the statement by Bishop Peric on his other post?

not sure what you mean by this If this thing is not authentic, God has still been able to use it to turn both of us around, along with lots of others.

Anyway, don’t hold your breath waiting for “The Sign”.

 

[zab]

As with all stories throughout history there are usually a few different sides to each issue. with the truth being somewhere in the middle. The apparitions origins have all but been approved, PF delegate will give his pastoral recommendations sometime in June, A stopping of the diocesan ban has been recommended… etc. I think you are going to be disappointed with your assessment of where things ought to go. What ever happens now the truth will be revealed in the years to come.

Peace!

The Vatican has always stood by the decision of the local bishop. I don’t know where you get* “A stopping of the diocesan ban has been recommended…etc.”*.

 

[commenter]

The Vatican has always stood by the decision of the local bishop. I don’t know where you get* “A stopping of the diocesan ban has been recommended…etc.”*.

What worries me is that we will see a **shopping **of the diocesan ban. In other words, an ambiguous statement that leaves the door open to multiple interpretations.

so as … “it’s not exactly an approved private revelation (but could be maybe), the revelations are not coming from Mary (well, except the first few revelations might be sincere, not exactly true but sincere), and you must be obedient to the local bishop (except those who don’t want to be, as long as they can find some authoritative statement among the millions of words, that they can relate to…”

And the local bishop retains full episcopal pastoral authority (well, sort of, other than issues that are **globally **pastoral, in which case those issues fall under some other pastoral provision - or no, maybe this refers not to special issues, but to special persons, those who live outside that diocese…So the local bishop’s pastoral credibility is intact, except where supersceded if a million pilgrims show up at a forbidden site, but for all those other unapproved private apparitions with less than defiant 1000 pilgrims, the number of pilgrims does not add up to an alternative episcopal challenge…If there are under 10,000 defiant pilgrims show up at some other forbidden site, their defiance can be ignored.

And the local bishop’s “final” decision is no longer final, so the any “final” decision by various pastoral visitor of uncertain job title and authority, not to mention the committee(!) . Since permanent local decisions can be overturned, therefore any “permanent” decisions by the Visitor or commission vote are equally non credible. If you disagree with **any **pastoral or even doctrinal position of the Church, it now becomes non permanent, so maybe you can ignore it as well. The CCC might well be written in pencil, since any and every statement you disagree with you can now designate as non-permanent, so you can ignore it in the meantime.

Am I the only one who sees no benefit from ambiguity?

 

[Fiasco]

What worries me is that we will see a **shopping **of the diocesan ban. In other words, an ambiguous statement that leaves the door open to multiple interpretations…

Great post!

i feel that Bishop Peric, along with the late Bishop Zanic, has had the rug pulled out from under him.

Am I the only one who sees no benefit from ambiguity?

You’re certainly NOT the only one who sees no benefit from ambiguity. We need no-nonsense/definitive answers. No “legal” loopholes.