Vatican Confirms SSPX Is Being Offered Personal Prelature

[curlycool89]

By the fact that everywhere there is forced nationalization, there is anti-celericalism.

Which is an argument appealing to enumerative induction. That doesn’t actually prove anything though.

And please stop using “forced nationalization”. It makes you sound like you have no idea what you’re talking about.

But, if you want evidence, putting the Pope under house arrest for one.

Ok, another history lesson.

The Pope’s voluntarily refused to leave the Vatican in protest for loosing secular power (I’d argue that it’s better that the Pope is no longer a secular ruler because it allows him to put all his effort into his actual job of being Pope, but that’s an argument for another time). It was more akin to a hunger-strike then having food withheld. The Pope was free to leave at any time, but chose not to.

 

[Moore11]

Did you look at the statutes of Opus Dei that I posted above? That’s what I mean by contained. Opus Dei is very contained. It has nothing to do with being a decease. It has to do with the nature of a prelature, unless the Holy Father decides to change the paradigm, which he can do. If he keeps the current paradigm, yes the SSPX will be contained and yes, it will make many bishops very happy. They will not be obliged to include the SSPX in their diocesan councils, deaneries or synods, as they must do with priests who belong to religious communities. They cannot exclude the regular priests or the society priests, such as the FSSP. They can exclude the prelature priests.

On the flip side, if the bishop and the SSPX superior get along well, the bishop is free to invite the SSPX and the superior is free to grant them permission to participate in diocesan life and have an influence outside of the prelature.

It think it’s a dream to say that the SSPX is going to come in as a power house, because it’s not realistic. It’s very small and most Catholics are comfortable where they’re at.

It’s also very offensive to make such a statement as if to suggest that the rest of us who have been around during the last 50 years have been doing nothing but sitting on our hands waiting to be rescued by the SSPX. Over the last 50 years, thousands of religious and clergy have quietly made significant contributions to the Church and some very noticeable, such as Bl. Mother Teresa. Now, that’s a power horse. The woman left behind three religious congregation with more than 5,000 religious. Ninety percent of them are converts from Hinduism and Islam who started as volunteers with no intention of becoming Catholic, much less joining a religious community

The Franciscans of the Renewal are another power horse. They began with six Capuchin Friars. They’re almost 200 of them and many of them were thugs and are now consecrated religious thanks to the influence of the six friars who walked the streets of Harlem and the Bronx and stood on the corner playing their guitars.

Does the SSPX have something to offer? Very much so. It has a charism that is a great gift of the Holy Spirit. But it will not save the Church by itself and it can learn a great deal from those of us who have been here for 50 years. We should not overestimate them or underestimate them. The hope is that they will fit into the Church’s structure and bring a much needed gift into the Church for those who need what God offers through them. And that they will be open to learning from the rest of us as well. For this to work, it has to be a mutually enriching relationship.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

I’m not so sure. I can see where you think the SSPX will be of little political force within the Church off the bat. BUT this Pope has been mindful of the future and has appointed conservative cardinals and been a friend to those of a conservative mind. This Pope AND the next may very well have a soft spot for the SSPX.
Though we look at a prelature as a tool that the Pope can use in this situation to “keep an eye” on the unruly SSPX it may very well also be an actual personal prelature, something the Pope desires for the Church. A society that he himself wants not just for unity but also for influence.
Either way this up and down is killing me!

 

[Brooklyn]

Did you look at the statutes of Opus Dei that I posted above? That’s what I mean by contained. Opus Dei is very contained. It has nothing to do with being a decease. It has to do with the nature of a prelature, unless the Holy Father decides to change the paradigm, which he can do. If he keeps the current paradigm, yes the SSPX will be contained and yes, it will make many bishops very happy. They will not be obliged to include the SSPX in their diocesan councils, deaneries or synods, as they must do with priests who belong to religious communities. They cannot exclude the regular priests or the society priests, such as the FSSP. They can exclude the prelature priests.

I think this is what the SSPX prefers. They will not be included in diocese decisions, but neither will they be affected by them in any way. But isn’t that true of religious orders as well? The biggest fear of the SSPX is to be shut down by the bishops. This is not possible if they are a Personal Prelature. As you say, win win.

On the flip side, if the bishop and the SSPX superior get along well, the bishop is free to invite the SSPX and the superior is free to grant them permission to participate in diocesan life and have an influence outside of the prelature.

 

[JReducation]

I’m not so sure. I can see where you think the SSPX will be of little political force within the Church off the bat. BUT this Pope has been mindful of the future and has appointed conservative cardinals and been a friend to those of a conservative mind. This Pope AND the next may very well have a soft spot for the SSPX.
Though we look at a prelature as a tool that the Pope can use in this situation to “keep an eye” on the unruly SSPX it may very well also be an actual personal prelature, something the Pope desires for the Church. A society that he himself wants not just for unity but also for influence.
Either way this up and down is killing me!

A prelature is not part the decision making machine. The decision making machinery is the priests council, deanery, Bishops Conference, and Conference of Major Superiors (male only). The prelature has neither a voice nor a vote in any of these . . . as the paradigm exists now. However, what we do have is many Holy Cross Fathers in very influential positions in the Vatican. Those are all scholarly posts. Right now, the SSPX does not have any big name scholars. They can have. It’s really up to their general council.

I think this is what the SSPX prefers. They will not be included in diocese decisions, but neither will they be affected by them in any way. But isn’t that true of religious orders as well?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The advantage of the prelature is that it’s a bishop dealing with another bishop and the prelature is not there to take over a diocesan parish, school or other ministry. It’s there to minister to its people and for the sake of its apostolate. The bishop has nothing to worry about, unless the prelate assigns a few psychos. That can happen with anyone.

Does this mean that the chapels of the prelature will not be doing confirmations, weddings, and funerals?

Because if they are then they will be acting more like the personal parishes that many bishops have set up for the EF rather than acting as a personal prelature.

 

[Not_Sure_1]

I can’t help but see that as a reward for disobedience.

The founds of the Priestly Faternity of Saint Peter left the SSPX and returned to communion with Rome. They were allowed to form a priestly society.

The SSPX holds out for a number of years longer and evently are given a personal prelature.

How can it not be viewed as a reward for disobedience?

I pray to God to change my heart and mind on this but as it stands I can not accept this. Yes it will happen but I am unable to support or be happy about it.

What about the disobedience of those who remained in the Church, and added all the innovations inimical to the tradition of the Church? What about the disobedience of those who covered up those abuses?

Why are the sins of the SSPX any different (I say they are less evil), than the sins of those who stayed in the Church to try to destroy it? Was anyone disciplined for the clown masses, the altar girls (added when the Pope strictly opposed it)? How about for ripping the altars from the Church? Is anyone being disciplined now for the homosexual masses, the politicians who are allowed to continually receive communion after declaring themselves enemies of the Church?

If the sins of all those priests, bishops, laymen, are not being punished by the Pope, and are forgiven or ignored due to the ravages of time; why can we not forgive the SSPX, who (at least) try to be good, and oppose evil, and try to stick to what the Church has been for 2000 years? It amazes me that we do so much to reconcile with Jews and Protestants and Secularists, but when the Holy Father (in his great wisdom of years, and with the hand of the Holy Spirit always guiding his hand) decides to reconcile with Catholics, people are up in arms!
The excommunications are lifted. Bring them home. Welcome them. We need their like to fight the battles that will come.

 

[LightBound]

What about the disobedience of those who remained in the Church, and added all the innovations inimical to the tradition of the Church? What about the disobedience of those who covered up those abuses?

Why are the sins of the SSPX any different (I say they are less evil), than the sins of those who stayed in the Church to try to destroy it? Was anyone disciplined for the clown masses, the altar girls (added when the Pope strictly opposed it)? How about for ripping the altars from the Church? Is anyone being disciplined now for the homosexual masses, the politicians who are allowed to continually receive communion after declaring themselves enemies of the Church?

If the sins of all those priests, bishops, laymen, are not being punished by the Pope, and are forgiven or ignored due to the ravages of time; why can we not forgive the SSPX, who (at least) try to be good, and oppose evil, and try to stick to what the Church has been for 2000 years? It amazes me that we do so much to reconcile with Jews and Protestants and Secularists, but when the Holy Father (in his great wisdom of years, and with the hand of the Holy Spirit always guiding his hand) decides to reconcile with Catholics, people are up in arms!
The excommunications are lifted. Bring them home. Welcome them. We need their like to fight the battles that will come.

On another note…Would you (or anyone else on here) please provide some proof of this mythical “clown Mass” that apparently exists? I’m not trying to be difficult, but I have heard this urban legend more than a few times, but no one can find an actual one performed in a legitimate diocese (as in one “in line” with Rome).

Also, altar servers that happen to be female are not anything to be disciplined over…the Pope has actually thanked those females for their service…just because some Catholics do not like them does not make it a liturgical abuse in itself…

 

[Dom_Passeri]

On another note…Would you (or anyone else on here) please provide some proof of this mythical “clown Mass” that apparently exists? I’m not trying to be difficult, but I have heard this urban legend more than a few times, but no one can find an actual one performed in a legitimate diocese (as in one “in line” with Rome).

Also, altar servers that happen to be female are not anything to be disciplined over…the Pope has actually thanked those females for their service…just because some Catholics do not like them does not make it a liturgical abuse in itself…

That was Schonborn in Austria, wasn’t it? I mean, most recently…lol

They used to have “liturgical dancers” all the time where I grew up. Barf.

 

[LightBound]

That was Schonborn in Austria, wasn’t it? I mean, most recently…lol

They used to have “liturgical dancers” all the time where I grew up. Barf.

A quick google and I have found what you mentioned in Austria…
Wow! That was certainly “something”. I’m all for the Mass in the vernacular and people wearing modest, but comfortable apparel to Church, but this was too much! I have been accused of being a cafeteria Catholic and a flaming liberal here on CAF and even I find this “celebration of Mass” has crossed the line. There’s one thing about “meeting people where they are” when it comes to allowed variables in the Mass and then there’s this: the-american-catholic.com/2010/07/05/unholy-mass-in-austria-with-explicit-approval-of-cardinal-schonborn/

Thank you Dom, I guess it wasn’t one of those urban legends after all…

 

[TrueLight]

In talking to some laity who attend SSPX chapels today, I am so struck by how much we need to pray for discernment for our Holy Father, Bishop Fellay, the three other bishops, the priests and the laity who attend these masses. There is a lot of confusion.

We should also pray for patience and for resistance to speculating on what the documents hold. The speculation in itself is causing much angst.

Let us pray to our Blessed Mother for her guidance in all things.

May God’s will be done.

 

[freshwind]

On another note…Would you (or anyone else on here) please provide some proof of this mythical “clown Mass” that apparently exists? I’m not trying to be difficult, but I have heard this urban legend more than a few times, but no one can find an actual one performed in a legitimate diocese (as in one “in line” with Rome).

youtube.com/watch?v=-ONNQnFVyvY

romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2006/12/a_sacrilegious_.html

youtube.com/watch?v=wedpLBTKd84

1st and 3rd seems to work…the 2nd states it was removed.

on the 3rd one skip to 3:30 or so and watch for a bit

sad but true

 

[justme]

What about the disobedience of those who remained in the Church, and added all the innovations inimical to the tradition of the Church? What about the disobedience of those who covered up those abuses?

First, this thread is talking about the SSPX. I believe that if you wish to talk about other groups and what they have or have not done and what the Church has or has not done in response is fodder for another thread.

Second. I assumed that we were all adults here and understand that wrong is wrong. That just becuase someone does something wrong does not give license to others to do wrong as well.

Third, that we all understand that sometimes some a punished where others are not but that we also understand that any lack of punishment does not give us free reign to break the laws.

Why are the sins of the SSPX any different (I say they are less evil), than the sins of those who stayed in the Church to try to destroy it? Was anyone disciplined for the clown masses, the altar girls (added when the Pope strictly opposed it)? How about for ripping the altars from the Church? Is anyone being disciplined now for the homosexual masses, the politicians who are allowed to continually receive communion after declaring themselves enemies of the Church?

I think someone needs to take a time out.

Homosexual masses? Really?

 

[JReducation]

Does this mean that the chapels of the prelature will not be doing confirmations, weddings, and funerals?

Because if they are then they will be acting more like the personal parishes that many bishops have set up for the EF rather than acting as a personal prelature.

The prelate is the proper ordinary of the prelature. He has the same faculties that a diocesan bishop has. Imagine the prelature like the Military Archdiocese. The difference is that the Military Archdiocese is a local Church. A prelature is not a Church. More appropriately, it’s an organism. The prelate can confirm and the priests of the prelature con witness weddings and celebrate the Mass of Christian Burial. Opus Dei already does it.

Again, as I keep saying, unless they change the rules. Opus Dei is the only point of reference that we have. Canon Law is deliberately vague on prelatures. Which allows the Holy See and the prelate a lot of wiggle room.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Please keep to the topic. This is about why the cop pulled you over, not about why he didn’t pull over the other guy who was speaking 10 miles faster than you were.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The prelate is the proper ordinary of the prelature. He has the same faculties that a diocesan bishop has. Imagine the prelature like the Military Archdiocese. The difference is that the Military Archdiocese is a local Church. A prelature is not a Church. More appropriately, it’s an organism. The prelate can confirm and the priests of the prelature con witness weddings and celebrate the Mass of Christian Burial. Opus Dei already does it.

Again, as I keep saying, unless they change the rules. Opus Dei is the only point of reference that we have. Canon Law is deliberately vague on prelatures. Which allows the Holy See and the prelate a lot of wiggle room.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

So it is like a reward.

They (the SSPX) get to have a foot hold in dioceses where their chapels can act as parishes with out the need to interact with the diocese.

 

[Brooklyn]

No. That’s the beauty of being male and religious. You must be given a vote in the deanery. Your priests must be voting members of the priests’ council, your superior must vote in the council of major superiors, but the bishop has not say in what you do, nor can the diocese dictate to you. You can move men around at your discretion. You can manage money, property and people at your discretion. You have the right to introduce your traditions and customs into your parishes and schools, even if they do belong to the diocese. The diocese cannot intervene. You are protected by the Vicar for Religious who is the buffer between you and the diocesan bishop. Your superior is an ordinary of equal rank with the bishop. You have a great deal of influence in a diocese, the more numbers you have. But you can decide how much or how little you take from the diocese. You must have the bishop’s permission to enter his diocese. Once you enter, you cannot be asked to leave. A priest of a prelature can be invited to participate in the life of the diocese, but he may also be disinvited. Is there such a word?

The SSPX has not been involved in any dioceses for many years, if ever. I don’t think it would be a big deal to them to be ignored now. In fact, I think they would prefer it. If I understand a Personal Prelature, they are responsible for themselves, and they would be answerable directly to the Pope. No Bishop would be able to touch them. That is exactly what the SSPX would want.

Opus Dei has their HQ here in NYC, and they own some very nice property right in midtown Manhattan and are very active. They are even somewhat active in diocese parishes, such as Our Saviour where Father George Rutler is pastor. I’m sure the same thing would happen with the SSPX. There would probably be a good number of people who would start attending SSPX parishes and supporting them financially. And I don’t know how it would work, but I think it’s a pretty good bet that the SSPX and the FSSP would reunite in some way. The Institute of Christ the King would probably also be involved with them in some way.

If the rumor is true, BIG IF . . . they will be asked to close down anything that is less than three years old. They will need permission to open any new places. But that’s not a hard thing for a prelature to get. The advantage of the prelature is that it’s a bishop dealing with another bishop and the prelature is not there to take over a diocesan parish, school or other ministry. It’s there to minister to its people and for the sake of its apostolate. The bishop has nothing to worry about, unless the prelate assigns a few psychos. That can happen with anyone.

 

[JReducation]

The SSPX has not been involved in any dioceses for many years, if ever. I don’t think it would be a big deal to them to be ignored now. In fact, I think they would prefer it. If I understand a Personal Prelature, they are responsible for themselves, and they would be answerable directly to the Pope. No Bishop would be able to touch them. That is exactly what the SSPX would want.

 

[Big_Feet]

Can we please get back to the SSPX and a possible Personal Prelature discussion?
There is another thread going about the age of the “Traditional Latin Mass”

Thank you!

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Church history is very interesting, but it belongs in a thread by itself. I’m separating the prelature thread and the history of the Tridentine Mass into two. Please post appropriately.

 

[iloveangels]

How did you get the impression that anyone feels that an prelature is a punishment? On the contrary. Some have argued that it’s a reward.

I said that it was not a reward. I did not say that it’s a punishment. I said that if you ask any religious superior general, we would tell you that we would not want to be a prelature. As we are, we are free of the influence of the local bishops and of the Holy See. We’re autonomous. That’s not saying that a prelature is a punishment.

I think a prelature does exactly what the SSPX needs. It provides it with room to grow and exercise its apostolate. It also does what the bishops need. It keeps the SSPX contained, if it follows the model of the Opus Dei as I pointed out above from their statutes. It provides a win win situation for everyone. Bishops and SSPX superiors who work well together are free to do so and those who do not can keep their distance from each other.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

In the US, it’s not the number of people in the SSPX that are going to change anything really. There’s not enough of them. Rather, it’s the idea of the whole thing that’s going to make the difference. Some people are going to lose their “pet whipping boy.” People are going to have to consider what having the SSPX back in principle might mean.