Vatican Confirms SSPX Is Being Offered Personal Prelature

[iloveangels]

Again, you’re confusing me with “tradition” and the “Church as it is today.” How are the needs of the Church - the salvation of mankind - any different than they ever were? I will agree that the world is probably more evil than it has ever been, but that just means the needs are even greater, not different.

I come from a much older tradition than you do my friend. I come from tradition that dates back to 1209. I know what I mean when I say stuck in 1962. The Church did not end there. There are many great things that happened after 1962 that deserve our attention and from which we can all learn, as well as many great people. We cannot deny the work and contribution to law of Pope Paul VI. We cannot deny the work and contribution to Catholic philosophy and Catholic pastoral care of Bl. John Paul II. We cannot deny the power of evangelization of Mother Teresa of Calcutta. We cannot deny that the world has changed much since 1962. Those are just a few of the many things.

…

Actually, evil is about the same. It’s just a different kind of evil. The world and the Church are very different. The pastoral needs of people have changed, because their circumstances have changed. If we reduce needs to mass and confession, then there is no difference between today and the year when we were founded, April 9, 2009. But there is a lot more to it than that.

…

It’s interesting looking at these two posts one right after another. You both seem to be talking past each other because you’re talking about change in different ways. One way to think of change is long term–what would it mean for the nature of human beings and salvation itself to change…Another way to think of change is in the temporal sense–aka yes we have cars now and cultures are different etc.

The other contrast is that one of you is talking as a concerned layperson from the viewpoint of a layperson, with a layperson’s assumptions in place; the other is talking solely from inside a religious congregation, so that a completely different set of assumptions in underneath the remarks…

A good example: The exigencies of the Franciscan order don’t have much to do with most laypeople, either in 1209 or in 2012–aka whether St. Francis forbid his friars to ride a horse or own a book and whatnot. The fact of the matter is that laypeople did ride horses on occasion freely and didn’t own books because of cost & scarcity in those days. This was before the invention of the printing press.

The people of the church include both people in religious congregations AND laypeople, as well as clergy. Discussions like this involve all.

 

[TrueLight]

In the US, it’s not the number of people in the SSPX that are going to change anything really. There’s not enough of them. Rather, it’s the idea of the whole thing that’s going to make the difference. Some people are going to lose their “pet whipping boy.” People are going to have to consider what having the SSPX back in principle might mean.

And also, some people are going to wonder if there is some truth in what the SSPX has been saying all along.

 

[Hesychios]

And also, some people are going to wonder if there is some truth in what the SSPX has been saying all along.

I think most people are asleep, and will not know what happened nor understand any of it.

 

[TrueLight]

I think most people are asleep, and will not know what happened nor understand any of it.

True. I tend to forget that not every Catholic is as focused on this stuff as we are.

 

[JM3]

And also, some people are going to wonder if there is some truth in what the SSPX has been saying all along.

Please enlighten us on what these’truths’ would be.

 

[TrueLight]

Please enlighten us on what these’truths’ would be.

No thanks. I already ate some worm today.

 

[JReducation]

The exigencies of the Franciscan order don’t have much to do with most laypeople, either in 1209 or in 2012–aka whether St. Francis forbid his friars to ride a horse or own a book and whatnot.

As I said in another thread, this is where I bail out. Because I have no more to contribute. I regret that we (Franciscans) live in another world of our own making, a reality that cripples our ability to see, understand and contribute to the SSPX event.

God bless!

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[TimothyH]

True. I tend to forget that not every Catholic is as focused on this stuff as we are.

The truth is that most Catholics, if they have heard of the SSPX at all, know of them as those guys who didn’t like Vatican II and got themselves excommunicated. Whether it is a correct understanding or not, that’s the extent of what people know and have understood.

It can be explained that the excommunications have been lifted, or that the SSPX has been regularized, or that the Holy Father has said they are in full communion with the Church, but the fact is that when someone starts talking about the SSPX, throwning around terms like the “Hermenutics of continuity” and telling people that the Mass they attend is a break with tradition, the room is going to empty really fast.

Not directed at you specifically TrueLight… My advice to traditionalists in general is to talk about how wonderful the Mass is and how it has made a positive impact in your life. You have a willing audience with wide eyes and open ears. The moment you start talking about returning to the way things were, correcting mistakes, or bringing back reverence however, you have shot yourself in the foot, especially if you take it to the classroom without the knowledge of the pastor or head of PSR.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Please enlighten us on what these’truths’ would be.

But inuendo, vauge statements, and oblique references are so much more fun.

-Tim-

 

[iloveangels]

And also, some people are going to wonder if there is some truth in what the SSPX has been saying all along.

A few might, yes. I don’t know how many might be that analytical about it. It will register somewhat on peoples’ event scales though.

They might say, hmm, the Church is more “center” than I thought, not so progressive now. Or they might say “I wonder what all that was about then?”

We have to remember that most people aren’t as interested in this as people who come to CAF to talk about it. People are pretty secularized these days.

 

[TrueLight]

But inuendo, vauge statements, and oblique references are so much more fun.

-Tim-

It’s called avoiding infractions in the same way you avoid mine fields.

 

[Big_Feet]

It’s called avoiding infractions in the same way you avoid mine fields.

It’s called making innuendo, vague statements, and oblique references, and then running with no explanation! Very similar to “baiting,” in my estimation.

 

[Moore11]

It’s called avoiding infractions in the same way you avoid mine fields.

I have noticed it goes like this.
Traditional Poster=TP
Normal (for lack of a better term) Poster =NP

TP: Something like “the sspx has a point” or “the TLM is very holy to me.”
NP why whatever do you mean?
TP I mean I like the SSPX and the TLM
NP Like? like you mean it is better than something else?
TP Well, for me yes.
NP (alarm bells ringing) mod notified.

It is such an emotional subject but I have noticed that traditionalists are often baited and emotionally fall for the bait because they care about their position. If it is done on purpose it is a dirty trick and if it is done by a well meaning person then it is annoying.

 

[TrueLight]

It’s called making innuendo, vague statements, and oblique references, and then running with no explanation! Very similar to “baiting,” in my estimation.

BigFeet, please tone down the hostility. I haven’t done anything to you.

 

[jam070406]

I have noticed it goes like this.
Traditional Poster=TP
Normal (for lack of a better term) Poster =NP

TP: Something like “the sspx has a point” or “the TLM is very holy to me.”
NP why whatever do you mean?
TP I mean I like the SSPX and the TLM
NP Like? like you mean it is better than something else?
TP Well, for me yes.
NP (alarm bells ringing) mod notified.

It is such an emotional subject but I have noticed that traditionalists are often baited and emotionally fall for the bait because they care about their position. If it is done on purpose it is a dirty trick and if it is done by a well meaning person then it is annoying.

Bingo!!

 

[Big_Feet]

BigFeet, please tone down the hostility. I haven’t done anything to you.

not hostile at all.
I am just stating my opinion.

I do get just as frustrated (mildly, if you will) as others do when the vague references are made, clarifications are asked for, and the original poster ducks and covers such as you did. If you have an opinion, and are willing to put it out there, you should also willing to back it up. (that is just my opinion - take it for what you will)

 

[Mike30]

not hostile at all.
I am just stating my opinion.

I do get just as frustrated (mildly, if you will) as others do when the vague references are made, clarifications are asked for, and the original poster ducks and covers such as you did. If you have an opinion, and are willing to put it out there, you should also willing to back it up. (that is just my opinion - take it for what you will)

I would think that anyone who has spent any time on this particular topic knows exactly, and I do mean exactly, what the poster was talking about. It has been argued over and over, rehashed ad nauseum and utterly kicked to death.

Merely stating what is painfully obvious doesn’t require extensive re hashing.

PS. If you truly don’t know or understand what the poster was speaking of just PM me. I’ll tell you.

 

[curlycool89]

I have noticed it goes like this.
Traditional Poster=TP
Normal (for lack of a better term) Poster =NP

TP: Something like “the sspx has a point” or “the TLM is very holy to me.”
NP why whatever do you mean?
TP I mean I like the SSPX and the TLM
NP Like? like you mean it is better than something else?
TP Well, for me yes.
NP (alarm bells ringing) mod notified.

I don’t see anything in that hypothetical conversation that would warrant mod intervention. People are free to say that they personally like the EF better, so long as they keep the tone subjective.

What gets people into trouble is when they start trying to say either a) EF is better for everyone no one should go to the OF or b) OF is flawed and that makes the EF better (both as objective “truths”). Both of those run into huge theological issues that, frankly, are beyond the scope of most of our knowledge (save for a few people, Br. JR being the most prominent). So that topic is at least de facto forbidden because it just results in fighting (and name calling: archaic out of touch conservatives vs. progressive-liberal-modernists, or pick your favourite insults and pro/con labels).

 

[justme]

I have noticed it goes like this.
Traditional Poster=TP
Normal (for lack of a better term) Poster =NP

TP: Something like “the sspx has a point” or “the TLM is very holy to me.”
NP why whatever do you mean?
TP I mean I like the SSPX and the TLM
NP Like? like you mean it is better than something else?
TP Well, for me yes.
NP (alarm bells ringing) mod notified.

It is such an emotional subject but I have noticed that traditionalists are often baited and emotionally fall for the bait because they care about their position. If it is done on purpose it is a dirty trick and if it is done by a well meaning person then it is annoying.

Actually that last bit, the “Well, for me yes.” seems to be lacking in most cases. The TP if not saying that their way is the right way go way out to let everyone know that they believe that it is the best way (and they seldom add “in my opinion” or “for me”)

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

not hostile at all.
I am just stating my opinion.

I do get just as frustrated (mildly, if you will) as others do when the vague references are made, clarifications are asked for, and the original poster ducks and covers such as you did. If you have an opinion, and are willing to put it out there, you should also willing to back it up. (that is just my opinion - take it for what you will)

And we get annoyed when we give said clarifications and then get smacked with an infraction. Are you sure TrueLight is baiting? You might be baiting…