Vatican Council II and code of canon law

[Melchior_1]

Bravo!! I think that brother is living with blinders on. If Vatican II was such a success, why is the pope calling for the “reform of the reform?” Why, because it was not a success.

Here’s a little tidbit; what if Vatican II saved the Church? What if there was no Council, and as a result those who disobey grabbed a hold of something else to subvert?

Brother has the perspective of someone who is involved with the consecrated life. I have the perspective of working with a Society of Apostolic Life for 11 years. Those are two areas that Vatican II yielded very real fruits.

 

[JReducation]

Bravo!! I think that brother is living with blinders on. If Vatican II was such a success, why is the pope calling for the “reform of the reform?” Why, because it was not a success.

No, not blinders. These are facts.

The “reform of the reform” is about the liturgy, not the Universal Church. It’s an expression that the Holy Father coined to address the silliness that people have inserted into the liturgy that was not meant to be there.

Besides the three major points that the Holy See itself points out in the article that I posted in Post #1 and the fact that I posted in my other post, I have never said that we do not have problems. I have simply said that there are many fruits that most people don’t see.

1. 
   *]Did you know that there were no such institutes as Societies of Apostolic Life until the Code of 1983 and that for 200 years these communities were in Limbo?
   
   *]Did you know that fraternal communities of religious had been taken over by priests and that their confreres had lost their rights until Vatican II demanded that they return to their roots?
   
   *]Did you know that there are more than 20,000 Poor Clare nuns in the world today? One of the highest numbers in history.
   
   *]Did we ever have Catholic communication system like we have today, since the time of St. Maximilian Kolbe and Mother Tecla?
   
   *]Did we ever have as many lay movements as we do today?
   
   *]Did we have as many charities where clergy, religious and lay people cooperate to bring Christ to the poor and to serve him in the poor?
   
   *]Did you know that the census in our diocesan seminaries is growing?
   
   *]Did you know that the religious brother, who almost became extinct by 1965 is coming back and in some dioceses there are hundreds of them?
   
   *]Did you know that there are many new communities of brothers?
   
   *]Did you know that there are many lay people who are now involved in the study of theology and in seminary education, which was never the case before? Some lay theologians are excellent: ie. Dr. Hahn and Dr. Martin.
   
   *]Have you ever stopped to listen to some of the talk shows on EWTN and to their guests? It’s incredible the number of ministries that are taking place right in our backyard and we don’t know it.
   
   If I have blinders on, it may be that I’m missing some fruits that have come out of Vatican II and the Code of 1983.
   
   Also, I would like to close with saying that the same pope who calls for the reform of the reform is the one who is saying that there are many good fruits to Vatican II and the Code of 1983. He has said this repeatedly and made special mention of it several times during the month of October 2012 when the Church remembered the 50th anniversary of the Council. We have to be careful how we quote people to see the context.
   
   Are there problems waiting to be resolved? Of course there are. But we have to be careful not to become so focused on what’s wrong that we miss what’s good. That’s not healthy either. That can lead to despair, anger, frustration and other emotions that don’t resolve problems. Do you see what I mean?

 

[pnewton]

What I see are empty churches, convents, seminaries, Catholic schools, few people at confession, cafeteria Catholics, a clergy with no backbone, etc.

Perhaps you should go to a Church when Mass is* going on*. I have no problem seeing full Churches.

As far as fruits, the Catechism is an wonderful example. We also have the Constitutions. Do you not think of knowledge as a fruit. As far as numbers, the Catholic Church measures well across the world and when seen against other large denominations, all of which are fairing worse.

I find your pessimism rather dismissive of any fruit. Such an outlook will acknowledge no “fruit” were it presented to you from an angel. Have you considered the possibility that you may be the one that is not open? I won’t say you have blinders. That is rather uncharitable, as well as an illogical fallacy (begging the question).

 

[ProVobis]

Here’s a little tidbit; what if Vatican II saved the Church? What if there was no Council, and as a result those who disobey grabbed a hold of something else to subvert?

Well, most today had no part in the council or they aren’t old enough to remember what it was before then. Just as with Trent, the effects of it will diminish over time, unless everyone adheres to every sentence of every document written which I doubt. So your point will eventually become moot IMO.

 

[agnes_therese]

Bravo!! I think that brother is living with blinders on.

No, he’s not. You seem to be looking for only the negatives. My church is not empty, our diocesan seminary is not empty, there’s a line at confession before every Mass, and my parish priest has a backbone. And other parishes I visit are the same.
Sorry to disappoint you.

If Vatican II was such a success, why is the pope calling for the “reform of the reform?” Why, because it was not a success.

No one is saying the results of Vatican II were perfect. Many things that happened since then have nothing to do with the actual documents and actions of the Council. Before you blame Vatican II for everything, perhaps you need to learn more about it. The documents are easily available.

 

[JReducation]

I repeat, “the reform of the reform” was a phrase that Pope Benedict coined referring to the silliness that had crept into the liturgy that was not part of the vision when the liturgical reform took place. It also addresses things that were part of that vision that have not worked and need to be changed for something that works or recover what was in that place.

The term has nothing to do with the universal Church. We tend to think that Vatican II and the Code of 1983 is for the Latin Church alone. This is not the case. The Code of 1983 is for the Latin Church alone. Vatican II was for 23 Catholic Churches.

We have to think more globally when thinking of a council and more narrowly when thinking about a law. A council speaks to the universal Church. Law speaks to a target audience.

 

[jacobhalo]

No, he’s not. You seem to be looking for only the negatives. My church is not empty, our diocesan seminary is not empty, there’s a line at confession before every Mass, and my parish priest has a backbone. And other parishes I visit are the same.
Sorry to disappoint you.

No one is saying the results of Vatican II were perfect. Many things that happened since then have nothing to do with the actual documents and actions of the Council. Before you blame Vatican II for everything, perhaps you need to learn more about it. The documents are easily available.

I’ve read all 16 documents. They were beautifully written. But I’m not talking about what was written, I’m talking about what happened AFTER Vatican II. Firstly, the mass was changed to satisfy the Protestants, who had 6 ministers on the Liturgical committee. The Council of Trent said that this mass must be unchanging. In that respect, we lost our identity. Secondly, the Council of Trent said that no one other than the priest can touch the chalice and drink from it, and the priest who drinks from it must be celebrating mass. Now, we have lay people touching everything that used to be only for the priest to touch. We have Eucharistic ministers, actually, they were supposed to be called extraordinary ministers, in other words, only used in extraordinary circumstances. I didn’t see extraordinary circumstances in the parish to which I used to belong. I hear the same from friends of mine who belong to other parishes. The doctrine of " no salvation outside the church" is no longer in effect. I thought that was an infallible doctrine. Now, even other religions have a chance for salvation- not according to Jesus, who said the only way to the father is through me. He didn’t say one of the ways. We used to convert people. Now, that is no longer allowed. There were so many changes in the church, that it makes me sick. That is why, for the last 10 years, I’ attend the Traditional Latin mass.
The church even changed the words in the New Testament to satisfy the Jews. It used to be the Jews cried, “Crucify him” now it says the people cried… It is said that the Jews worship the same God as Christians, No they don’t. They don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus IS God. There is much more that I can write… So I don’t want to hear that no doctrines were changed during Vatican II.

 

[jacobhalo]

No, he’s not. You seem to be looking for only the negatives. My church is not empty, our diocesan seminary is not empty, there’s a line at confession before every Mass, and my parish priest has a backbone. And other parishes I visit are the same.
Sorry to disappoint you.

No one is saying the results of Vatican II were perfect. Many things that happened since then have nothing to do with the actual documents and actions of the Council. Before you blame Vatican II for everything, perhaps you need to learn more about it. The documents are easily available.

I’m glad to hear, but you situation is the exception.

 

[pnewton]

I’m glad to hear, but you situation is the exception.

On what do you base this statement? Her situation is similar to mine.

 

[Melchior_1]

Firstly, the mass was changed to satisfy the Protestants, who had 6 ministers on the Liturgical committee.

There was Protestant observers at other Councils too, including at Trent. I have yet to see any Church documentation to show that the Mass was changed to satisfy Protestants.

The Council of Trent said that this mass must be unchanging. In that respect, we lost our identity.

Yet the Liturgy was changed after Trent a few times before the 1950’s.

Secondly, the Council of Trent said that no one other than the priest can touch the chalice and drink from it, and the priest who drinks from it must be celebrating mass.

Groups like the Franciscans, Trappists, Cisterians, have all allowed their Brothers to drink the Blood. And a lot of them are not priests.

Now, we have lay people touching everything that used to be only for the priest to touch.

And deacons too, right? Right.

The doctrine of " no salvation outside the church" is no longer in effect.

Can you please provide documentation on this?

Now, even other religions have a chance for salvation- not according to Jesus, who said the only way to the father is through me. He didn’t say one of the ways.

Jesus is the way to Heaven, yes. This has not changed. The concept is a straight forward one; there’s a possibility that God will have mercy on those who are not Catholic. By having mercy on them and letting them have one final chance at the moment before they die, it allows them to say “YES” to Christ and enter His kingdom. How they live their life on Earth will dictate if they say “yes” or not, with Catholics having the superior advantage in that our very Faith is the True Faith, allowing us the best chance to say YES.

Also, you know you sound like a Protestant saying that you don’t need to pray with Mary, as they often say “no one goes to the Father except through Me”?

We used to convert people. Now, that is no longer allowed.

Care to provide a document stating this? I’ve seen several converts and reverts over the years.

That is why, for the last 10 years, I’ attend the Traditional Latin mass.

If this is how you want to express your Catholic faith, good on ya!

The church even changed the words in the New Testament to satisfy the Jews. It used to be the Jews cried, “Crucify him” now it says the people cried…

Can you please provide an example of this translation? Because if I recall correctly, at the last Good Friday I was at they said “CRUCIFY HIM”.

It is said that the Jews worship the same God as Christians, No they don’t.

Our Pope disagrees with you. The last four disagree with you. If you want proof that Jews worship the same God as us, try reading the entire Old Testament.

They don’t believe Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus IS God. There is much more that I can write…

But they believe in God the Father. Their perspective of the Trinity is incomplete, but they still believe in God the Father.

So I don’t want to hear that no doctrines were changed during Vatican II.

There was no change in doctrine, my friend.

 

[choliks]

We have Eucharistic ministers, actually, they were supposed to be called extraordinary ministers, in other words, only used in extraordinary circumstances. I didn’t see extraordinary circumstances in the parish to which I used to belong. I hear the same from friends of mine who belong to other parishes.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of “extraordinary” here. In the language of the Church, extraordinary simply means “not the ordinary”, NOT “out of the ordinary”. The ordinary here is the priest and the deacon. Not having extraordinary circumstances does not necessitate Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion.

In the Philippines, Masses are almost every hour and are always full to the brim. Since there are no deacons to assist the priest, extraordinary ministers of holy communion are used.

jacobhalo:

The doctrine of " no salvation outside the church" is no longer in effect. I thought that was an infallible doctrine.

I’ve read somewhere that this is still in effect, and is applied almost exclusively to Catholics, to discourage apostasy. It’s like losing your inheritance, if you leave your family. I know it’s a poor analogy, but it’s what i can think of right now.

jacobhalo:

The church even changed the words in the New Testament to satisfy the Jews. It used to be the Jews cried, “Crucify him” now it says the people cried…

I don’t know what bible you’re reading. Even the Passion account in Luke’s Gospel in the much maligned New American Bible still contain those phrases.
Luke 23:21:

21 but they continued their shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”
vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PX6.HTM

 

[agnes_therese]

Firstly, the mass was changed to satisfy the Protestants

Proof, please.

 

[TEPO]

I’ve always had a distaste for some parts of canon Law… I’m glad that the 2nd counsel of the Vatican at least cleared some of it up… They could have done more though.

One result I don’t like though is that the role of Monasterys have become less involved in evangelization and have increased in charity fund raising… Not that there is any wrong in charity -it’s just that there has been significant declines in Catholic faithfulness… Nobody dares to push “faith” anymore because they think that they’re not supposed to.

…but that’s not what the Counsel called for.

 

[jacobhalo]

On what do you base this statement? Her situation is similar to mine.

On what basis? Here are some stats taken from cara. georgetown.edu.
1965 total priests - 58,632 2012- 38,964
1965 religious priests -35, 925 2012-26,661
1965 priestly ordinations-994 2012-480
1965 religious brothers 12,271 2012- 4,447
1965 religious sisters 179,954 2012-54,018
1965 parishes-17,637 2012- 17,644
1965 without a pastor - 549 2012 3,389
1965 mass attendance - no stat. 2012 -24% I can testify that the mass attendance before Vatican II was 85%-90%
You can see that the # of parishes is the same, but the number of priests are way down.

The Catholic pop. has risen from 45 million to 65 million from 1965 to 2012.

 

[PaulinVA]

On what basis? Here are some stats taken from cara. georgetown.edu.
1965 total priests - 58,632 2012- 38,964
1965 religious priests -35, 925 2012-26,661
1965 priestly ordinations-994 2012-480
1965 religious brothers 12,271 2012- 4,447
1965 religious sisters 179,954 2012-54,018
1965 parishes-17,637 2012- 17,644
1965 without a pastor - 549 2012 3,389
1965 mass attendance - no stat. 2012 -24% I can testify that the mass attendance before Vatican II was 85%-90%
You can see that the # of parishes is the same, but the number of priests are way down.

The Catholic pop. has risen from 45 million to 65 million from 1965 to 2012.

Jacob,
Unfortunately, we don’t know what those statistics would be if Vatican II had not happened. There was a lot going on in society at large in the sixties and seventies. Those other things would still have had an effect of Catholics even if they were still going to Mass in latin and receiving Communion on the tongue at altar railings.

 

[TimothyH]

I’ve always had a distaste for some parts of canon Law… I’m glad that the 2nd counsel of the Vatican at least cleared some of it up… They could have done more though.

One result I don’t like though is that the role of Monasterys have become less involved in evangelization and have increased in charity fund raising… Not that there is any wrong in charity -it’s just that there has been significant declines in Catholic faithfulness… Nobody dares to push “faith” anymore because they think that they’re not supposed to.

…but that’s not what the Counsel called for.

Many people don’t understand that monastics such as Benedictines and Cistercians (Trappists) are exempt from Canon law. As concecrated religious under solemn vows, canon law simply doesn’t apply to them. They are exempt, as are Franciscans, Dominicans, and Carmelites.

In the late 1800’s, the orders of consecrated religious were pulled away from their core mission as envisioned by their founders and laid out in their rules of life. Evangelization as we think about it - going out into the secular world and preaching to people - simply isn’t what Benedictine monastics do. Their way of life is to live as family in an enclosed community in a life of work, prayer, silence and love for one another.

Its not that Benedictines and Cistercians have abandoned public preaching and teaching, but just that it was never part of what they were about in the first place. They haven’t abandoned anything but rather have returned to their roots, to what they were supposed to be in the first place and were forced away from by the First Vatican Council. .

Preaching and teaching is part of the core of who and what Dominicans are, not monastics. Caring for and hospitality to the poor has alwasy been a part of Benedictine monasticism. Everyone who knocks on the door of the monastery is treated as if they are Christ. This is commanded by their rule of life. Public preaching is not commanded by their rule of life.

If you want to be evangelized by monastics, you need to go to them. Spend three or four days in a retreat at a monastery and you will be evangelized to your core simply by being in their presence.

-Tim-

 

[TEPO]

Many people don’t understand that monastics such as Benedictines and Cistercians (Trappists) are exempt from Canon law. As concecrated religious under solemn vows, canon law simply doesn’t apply to them. They are exempt, as are Franciscans, Dominicans, and Carmelites.

In the late 1800’s, the orders of consecrated religious were pulled away from their core mission as envisioned by their founders and laid out in their rules of life. Evangelization as we think about it - going out into the secular world and preaching to people - simply isn’t what Benedictine monastics do. Their way of life is to live as family in an enclosed community in a life of work, prayer, silence and love for one another.

Its not that Benedictines and Cistercians have abandoned public preaching and teaching, but just that it was never part of what they were about in the first place. They haven’t abandoned anything but rather have returned to their roots, to what they were supposed to be in the first place and were forced away from by the First Vatican Council. .

Preaching and teaching is part of the core of who and what Dominicans are, not monastics. Caring for and hospitality to the poor has alwasy been a part of Benedictine monasticism. Everyone who knocks on the door of the monastery is treated as if they are Christ. This is commanded by their rule of life. Public preaching is not commanded by their rule of life.

If you want to be evangelized by monastics, you need to go to them. Spend three or four days in a retreat at a monastery and you will be evangelized to your core simply by being in their presence.

-Tim-

Amen, and thank you Tim for the response.