Vatican document on the Reformation Anniversery

[Pulvis]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/weeks-prayer-doc/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20160531_week-prayer-2017_en.html

“Given the fact that the history of the Reformation was marked by painful division, this is a very remarkable achievement. The Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity has worked hard to produce a shared understanding of the commemoration. Its important report, From Conflict to Communion, recognizes that both traditions approach this anniversary in an ecumenical age, with the achievements of fifty years of dialogue behind them, and with new understandings of their own history and theology. Separating that which is polemical from the theological insights of the Reformation, Catholics are now able to hear Luther’s challenge for the Church of today, recognising him as a “witness to the gospel” (From Conflict to Communion 29). And so after centuries of mutual condemnations and vilification, in 2017 Lutheran and Catholic Christians will for the first time commemorate together the beginning of the Reformation.”

 

[jaimeleglise]

I don’t believe this is something to celebrate. The Protestants went on to splinter into thousands of denominations. Many people are now born into faiths that deny The Real Presence, the Sacrament of Confession, the Intercession of Mary and the Saints. They do not have a Mass, the highest form of worship. They miss out on many things.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

“witness of the gospel”…yes. Try these, from Luther’s pamphlet Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil (Luther’s works Vol. 41):“You say, “What comes out of our mouth must be kept!” I hear it – which mouth do you mean? The one from which the farts come? (You can keep that yourself)" - p281

"Dear God, what an utterly shameless, blasphemous lying-mouth you are." - pg 300

**“You are the worst rascal of all the rascals on earth.” - *pg. 341 ***

"May God punish you, I say, you shameless, barefaced liar, devil’s mouthpiece, who dares to spit out, before God, before all the angels, before the dear sun, before all the world, your devil’s filth." - pg. 349

"A natural donkey, which carries sacks to the mill and eats thistles, can judge you – indeed, all creatures can! For a donkey knows it is a donkey and not a cow. A stone knows it is a stone; water is water, and so on through all the creatures. But you mad asses do not know you are asses." - pg 360
There’s a lot more where that came from.

(those interested can read the entire pamphlet here. It is one of the last of Luther’s writings and represents his mature thinking as a ‘great reformer’)

 

[fin]

Yes. But I guess someone here on Caf would still defend him as someone just misunderstood and not that bad at all.

 

[josh987654321]

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/weeks-prayer-doc/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20160531_week-prayer-2017_en.html

“Given the fact that the history of the Reformation was marked by painful division, this is a very remarkable achievement. The Lutheran-Roman Catholic Commission on Unity has worked hard to produce a shared understanding of the commemoration. Its important report, From Conflict to Communion, recognizes that both traditions approach this anniversary in an ecumenical age, with the achievements of fifty years of dialogue behind them, and with new understandings of their own history and theology. Separating that which is polemical from the theological insights of the Reformation, Catholics are now able to hear Luther’s challenge for the Church of today, recognising him as a “witness to the gospel” (From Conflict to Communion 29). And so after centuries of mutual condemnations and vilification, in 2017 Lutheran and Catholic Christians will for the first time commemorate together the beginning of the Reformation.”

I will read through the link, but what you have quoted here, and what I have heard, this is just madness. absolute madness.

For starters, I have no I’ll will toward my Lutheran brothers and sisters who sincerely try to follow Christ nor have I condemned them.

However, as Catholics, we believe in the **One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church **as we say in the creed at every Mass, Rosary or Chaplet of Divine Mercy. To then turn around and commemorate the reformation is nonsense. There is nothing to commemorate about the fracturing of the Church. It’s something we are sad about and we hope for their return. What exactly are they still protesting and that’s what we can discuss in the hopes they may come back to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[josh987654321]

I don’t believe this is something to celebrate.

Exactly! We say ‘One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church’ every single week at Mass, when we profess the creed, why would we then turn around to commemorate the reformation in some way? It’s crazy.

The Protestants went on to splinter into thousands of denominations. Many people are now born into faiths that deny The Real Presence, the Sacrament of Confession, the Intercession of Mary and the Saints. They do not have a Mass, the highest form of worship. They miss out on many things.

I agree, many protestants do great work, and I agree with many of my protestant brothers and sisters in Christ on many things and there are others I disagree, (especially when they miss out on Christ’s real presence, literally, body, blood , soul and divinity, in the Holy Eucharist), however, we believe in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we believe Christ founded One Church, the Roman Catholic Church and that if they are protesting something, then lets discuss that and hopefully one day they may convert to the Roman Catholic Church and we can be part of the One Church as I believe Christ intended for us to be.

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[dmar198]

I would like to point out that “commemorate” is not the same thing as “celebrate.” In this document: catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/not-a-reformation-but-a-revolution Karl Keating points out the true meaning of commemorate and gives examples to prove it is not the same thing as “celebrate”: “Working from the Latin, to commemorate (“with memory”) means to keep something in memory or not to lose memory of it. … We commemorate 9/11 because we want to keep in mind the wickedness of the terrorism and the heroism of so many victims, police, and firefighters—but we don’t celebrate what happened on that day. We gladly would give up the heroism if we could have been spared the terror.” source

We can commemorate the Reformation without celebrating its problems.

 

[twf]

I don’t believe this is something to celebrate. The Protestants went on to splinter into thousands of denominations. Many people are now born into faiths that deny The Real Presence, the Sacrament of Confession, the Intercession of Mary and the Saints. They do not have a Mass, the highest form of worship. They miss out on many things.

Don’t paint all Protestants with one brush. In many ways we have more in common with traditional Lutherans than they themselves have with the various Evangelical / Pentecostal movements that arose in 19th/20th century America. Lutherans DO believe in the Real Presence (even if their Eucharist is not valid from a Catholic perspective), they do celebrate a liturgy that greatly resembles the Mass, they do practice private confession in some cases and certainly public absolution during the liturgy (again I’m not speaking of validity). Many Lutherans also seem to believe in the intercession of the saints - my mother, who is currently worshiping as a Lutheran (originally coming from an Evangelical background) certainly does and proudly sings the Ave Maria.
Fruitful dialogue is possible if we focus on what we have in common with the more “high church” Protestants.

 

[saellis]

Nothing to celebrate here in this 500th anniversary of a schism that never should have happened but let us extend the hand of friendship to our Protestant brothers anyway.

 

[rfournier103]

I am all for working to reach out to our Protestant/non-Catholic brethren. We have made great strides.

~The Catholic Church has reformed the Liturgy and since 1970 the Novus Ordo is said in the vernacular.

~The Catholic Church has encouraged the study of Sacred Scripture by the laity.

~The Catholic Church has relaxed its rules on fasting and abstinence.

~The Catholic Church has even backed off its claim that there is no Salvation outside the Church.

~The Catholic Church has changed itself to be more appealing and easier to be a part of.

I personally think that the Church has done quite a bit to commemorate the Reformation and meet non-Catholic Christians more than half way. I don’t see what this “commemoration” further accomplishes. At the end of the day, we will still be separated brethren and the Church that Christ founded will be no more appealing to Protestants than it was last year.

If I were Protestant, I’d be celebrating. But as a Catholic, I have to ask what is the purpose of the Church participating in this commemoration? The titans of the Reformation - Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, and Knox hated the Catholic Church. I wonder what kind of message “commemorating” their hard work against Christ’s Church sends?

 

[ComplineSanFran]

I personally think that the Church has done quite a bit to commemorate the Reformation and meet non-Catholic Christians more than half way. I don’t see what this “commemoration” further accomplishes. At the end of the day, we will still be separated brethren and the Church that Christ founded will be no more appealing to Protestants than it was last year.

If I were Protestant, I’d be celebrating. But as a Catholic, I have to ask what is the purpose of the Church participating in this commemoration? The titans of the Reformation - Henry VIII, Luther, Calvin, and Knox hated the Catholic Church. I wonder what kind of message “commemorating” their hard work against Christ’s Church sends?

The purpose is ‘thanksgiving and confession and (to) look ahead, committing ourselves to common witness and continuing journey.’ This is stated in the preface of the Common Prayer, the liturgy to be used throughout the world by Roman Catholics and Lutherans during this 500th anniversary of the Reformation.

 

[josh987654321]

I would like to point out that “commemorate” is not the same thing as “celebrate.” In this document: catholic.com/blog/karl-keating/not-a-reformation-but-a-revolution Karl Keating points out the true meaning of commemorate and gives examples to prove it is not the same thing as “celebrate”: "Working from the Latin, to commemorate (“with memory”) means to keep something in memory or not to lose memory of it.

That would be fine then I believe, however, that’s not the first thing that comes into my head with ‘commemorate’ and the key question is, is this ‘commemoration’ **with **the Lutherans? Because if so, then that would not make sense at all, in reference to your 9/11 analogy, it would be like commemorating it with the terrorists, who do not see 9/11 as a tragedy but a victory.

The Lutherans don’t see the reformation as something to mourn, but rather Luther as a hero, so I believe it would make no sense for us to commemorate it with them nor them commemorating it with us.

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[paperwight66]

Umm… you do know that the Roman Church is only one of 23 Catholic churches, don’t you? Admittedly the biggest, but we are not the ONLY Catholic church.

 

[rfournier103]

Umm… you do know that the Roman Church is only one of 23 Catholic Churches, don’t you? Admittedly the biggest, but we are not the ONLY Catholic Church.

There is ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH. There is the Latin/Western BRANCH of the Church, and there is the Eastern BRANCH of the Church.

Within these branches are different RITES. The Roman Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, the Melkite Rite, the Maronite Rite, and so on…

Each and every one of these RITES/Churches fall under the authority of the Roman Pontiff. The term “Roman Catholic” when used to describe the Catholic Church at large doesn’t really convey the “whole” story in my opinion.

As I understand it, at the beginning of the Reformation, the early Protestants believed that they were part of/an extension of the TRUE Universal/Catholic Church, and used the term “ROMAN Catholics” to differentiate the “Papal” Church from themselves. Just like “Roman” Catholics used the term “Lutherans” to describe many of the early Protestants. The names stuck, and here we are today.

There is ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church under the jurisdiction of the Vicar of Christ, and within that Church there are several rites. It doesn’t mean there are 23 different “Churches”. There’s just one.

 

[billy15]

~The Catholic Church has even backed off its claim that there is no Salvation outside the Church.

I agree with the majority of your post, I just wanted to kindly highlight this claim for a second.

Your statement’s not that cut and dry; the Church hasn’t “backed off” the doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church. It is still a dogma of the Catholic Church that "there is no salvation outside the Church. But there has, as with many doctrines, a development of doctrine on this issue. If someone invincibly ignorant outside the visible Church is saved, then i it through those same merits found in the treasury of the true Church. Thus, said person’s salvation would come, and only come through the Church. Typically, we see the last part of Lumen Genitum 16 (a often quoted text when this comes up) absent from such explanations on how Protestants, Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc. might be saved:

"Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience…

“But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention.” (Lumen Gentium, 16)

Just because one is “invincibly ignorant of our most holy religion”, as Bl. Pope Pius IX said, this ignorance is no sense a cause of salvation, but instead is a condition that is to be fulfilled to avoid culpability in their ignorance. The Church is still absolutely necessary for our salvation. Dr. Ralph Martin gives a great treatment of this in his book Will Many Be Saved? I highly recommend it; it was really informative.

 

[billy15]

There is ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH. There is the Latin/Western BRANCH of the Church, and there is the Eastern BRANCH of the Church.

Within these branches are different RITES. The Roman Rite, the Ambrosian Rite, the Melkite Rite, the Maronite Rite, and so on…

Each and every one of these RITES/Churches fall under the authority of the Roman Pontiff. The term “Roman Catholic” when used to describe the Catholic Church at large doesn’t really convey the “whole” story in my opinion.

As I understand it, at the beginning of the Reformation, the early Protestants believed that they were part of/an extension of the TRUE Universal/Catholic Church, and used the term “ROMAN Catholics” to differentiate the “Papal” Church from themselves. Just like “Roman” Catholics used the term “Lutherans” to describe many of the early Protestants. The names stuck, and here we are today.

There is ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church under the jurisdiction of the Vicar of Christ, and within that Church there are several rites. It doesn’t mean there are 23 different “Churches”. There’s just one.

I think you’re pretty much on target here. Not to pick on you at all, but just to clarify, we can say there are 23 (it’s actually twenty-four as of 2015) Churches… but you’re right to say we are all part of the ONE Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and we can call that Church Roman to show we are under the jurisdiction of the the Vicar of Christ, as you said, Rfournier. We just have to differentiate between rites and sui iuris (or particular) Churches:

CODE OF CANONS OF THE EASTERN CHURCHES

“Canon 27 - A group of Christian faithful united by a hierarchy according to the norm of law which the supreme authority of the Church expressly or tacitly recognizes as sui iuris is called in this Code a Church sui iuris.

“Canon 28 - A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.”

To simplify, the Catholic Church is divided into six distinct rites, and within those six rites, there are 24 distinct and autonomous Churches. Of course, to reiterate, all 24 of these Churches are in communion with the Pope in Rome.