Vatican Easter Vigil Mass

[thomasf]

We receive by intinction at our parish and I really do love this manner of receiving Jesus.

~Liza

What parish do you attend?

 

[Spiller]

One of the things that I really detest about CAF is when people begin to nitpick terminology like this. Especially when the terminology being nitpicked is being similarly used in official texts. It’s even more obnoxious when the behavior is being committed by a new member.

I’ve been here for quite awhile. I don’t need a lecture about belief in the Real Presence, nor does anyone else when they use an innocuous term, especially after using the “prerferred” term earlier in the post. To me, that suggests that the OP knows his terms and doesn’t require correction. Besides, the people who post on CAF probably aren’t the ones who need instruction in the Real Presence. Better that we fight that battle IRL, because that’s where it need be fought.

It is NITPICKING to point out the Precious Blood is not wine? Are you serious? YES, it actually IS that important not to refer to the Precious Blood as “wine.” It truly is…

WHY use the term “wine?” To save keystrokes? To antagonize others? To sprinkle a hint of dissent amongst the discussion? Why do you call the Precious Blood “wine”?

 

[Spiller]

FWIW, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom refers to the bread cut out of the prosphora as The Lamb as soon as it’s put on the diskos (paten) and even after consecration.

I don’t have my 1962 MR handy, but I’m willing to bet that the Latin uses “hostia” consistently as well.

I “host” is neither a wafer nor is it bread…

 

[Spiller]

Just curious. Why only ‘precious blood?’ Are you not concerned with my use of the word ‘host’, just ‘wine?’

And if you reread that, I use the words body and blood in the previous sentence. I deliberately used host and wine to describe how the Pope was giving the eucharist by intinction.

Because “host” does not simply refer to bread or a wafer. Wine is wine. If you would have said “wafer and wine” I would have mentioned that as well.

 

[Ahlman]

If the second Eucharistic Prayer uses the term “bread” for the Body of Christ, we can probably use the term “wine” for the Precious Blood as well.

Jesus calls himself the “bread of life” in John 6:35 and 6:48, so when this expression is used for the body of Christ in the eucharistic prayer after the consecration, it explicitly refers to Christ himself and not to the ordinary bread it was before the consecration. However, Jesus never refers to himself as “wine”, therefore the precious blood isn’t either referred to as “wine”. Jesus does indeed call himself the “true vine” in John 15:1, but it is not used in the same eucharistic context, and besides you can’t drink a vine if you do not make wine of it. The expression used in the eucharistic prayer for the precious blood is “cup of salvation” or “saving cup”, which is taken from Ps 116:13.

I know it can seem picky to correct people when they refer to the precious blood as “wine”, but if you really believe in transubstantiation it simply isn’t correct to do so. It’s not that hard to say “precious blood” or “the chalice” instead of “wine”, and “host” instead of “bread”, so to really underline our belief in transubstantiation and the real presence, we should try to use as correct wordings as possible.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please return to the OP, everyone. Please any side discussions to new or existing threads. Thank you all.

 

[Spiller]

There wasn’t a paten, but there was another minister, probably a deacon, ministering the chalice of the Precious Blood and he was holding a purificator. Whenever there was a genuine danger of the Precious Blood dripping off the consecrated host, he held out his purificator under the intincted host.

A folded purificator in one’s hand makes a far better “catcher” than a paten, particularly one of those patens with a long handle…

 

[irisheyes66]

One of the things that I really detest about CAF is when people begin to nitpick terminology like this.

Are you serious? The difference between simple wine and His Precious Blood is about as significant as it gets and, as you know, is what makes us who we are.

It should always be corrected, when someone mistakenly refers the the Real Presence as bread/wafer/wine, etc…

 

[MusicMan]

I am dead serious. It was quite clear what the OP meant. I don’t doubt the Real Presence, and I doubt the OP does. This is “know-it-all” behavior versus being geuinely helpful.

 

[irisheyes66]

I am dead serious. It was quite clear what the OP meant. I don’t doubt the Real Presence, and I doubt the OP does. This is “know-it-all” behavior versus being geuinely helpful.

It has nothing to do with being a “know-it-all” and has everything to do with passing on our belief. Sure, here on this forum, there may not be a need to “dot the i’s and cross the t’s” but there is a very slippery slope we have here in front of us. Have you seen the statistics on this issue. Here are some numbers I have taken from Beginning Apologetics 3:

1992 Gallup Poll

30% Of Catholics believe the are receiving the Real Presence.

29% Believe they are receiving bread & wine which is a symbol of Jesus

10% Believe they are receiving bread & wine in which Jesus is also present

24% Believe they are receiving what has become Body and Blood because of their own personal belief.

(I don’t know where the other 7% went )

In a more recent NY Times/CBS Poll:

Taken from Catholics that claim to regularly attend Mass:

Age 65 & Over - Only 51% believe in the Real Presence

Age 45 - 64 - Only 37% believe

Age 30 - 44 - Only 28% believe

Age 18 - 29 - Only 17% believe

Those numbers are staggering and highlight just how very important this issue is.

So you may call it “nit picking” or being a “know it all”. I call it defending the faith!

God Bless.

 

[MusicMan]

I am truly fascinated that we’re more interested in defending the faith from oneanother using 16 year old polls. Our focus should be on educating those who don’t believe instead of those who do and misspoke.

In any case, I haven’t seen any comment on my post #11. Anyone care to comment on the possibility that the Holy Father did this in yet another subtle attempt at setting the stage for unity with the East?

 

[irisheyes66]

I am truly fascinated that we’re more interested in defending the faith from oneanother using 16 year old polls. Our focus should be on educating those who don’t believe instead of those who do and misspoke.

Are you suggesting that the numbers would look better now as compared to 16 years ago? I don’t think so, in fact, I think they would look worse.

Don’t you see that “mis-speaking” adds to numbers. If anything we need to be more diligent than ever in reminding everyone that it isn’t just bread or wine, that it really is Body and Blood of Jesus Christ.

Heck, who knows, maybe someday if we keep pounding this message home to our own members, we’ll begin to see more consistent displays of respect for the presence of Jesus Christ such as genuflecting, silence, adoration, etc… All too often I see kids, teens and adults (even EM’s) walk right past the body of our Lord without any acknowledgment or sign of respect. This lack of respect has not gotten any better in the last 16 years, rather I see it much more now than I did in the past.

So, in closing, sure mis-speaking seems innocent on the surface. But if you look at the big picture of our Church, mis-speaking can be quite damaging as it serves to reinforce the belief that the Eucharist is only a symbol and not the real presence.

I’ll step down from the soap box now and disappear into the shadows.

God Bless.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.