Vatican II All Over Again

[Randy_Carson]

Randy never said Vatican 2 was a bad thing.
He is referring to how liberals in the Church have interpreted Vatican 2.

Now the liberals are misinterpreting me.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Battle of Lepanto and the restoration of the permanent diaconate might be in the running for best thing to happen in the last 1000 years.

-Tim-

Or Thomas Aquinas.

Or Trent.

Or Fatima.

Or Mother Teresa.

Or…well, you get the idea.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is absolutely not the reality of our modern day media. Many newspapers etc. have an AGENDA.

After last week’s interview with the Pope, one local newspaper had a headline proclaiming “Pope, Bishop At Odds on Gays” – a deliberate distortion and “vested interest” to divide the community and nurture anti-Catholic bias in our community. It had nothing to do with “reflecting a reality of what is happening with the people inside the church.”

Much of the media are pro-abortion and pro-gay “marriage”, and intentionally misrepresents the Catholic and other churches which have a different agenda than theirs.

 

[Aramis]

Are we seeing the pontificate of Pope Francis being hijacked in the same manner?

THe media is trying. The church isn’t in the same kind of turmoil that the first few decades after a council leaves it its wake, so I expect they will fail.

We should be seeing some more Easternisms; His Holiness is much more familiar with the Byzantine Churches than his predecessors.

 

[larsont7]

1,000 misinformed reporters will influence millions of misinformed readers.

This seems to be the biggest issue. I think many here on CAF think that the majority of Catholics are as informed as they are. Problem is, those who care about their faith enough to post on a Catholic forum are probably much more informed then your everyday Catholic.

If every Catholic was as knowledgeable about the faith as a typical CAF poster, then Pope Francis’s choice of words would not be a cause of concern. However, because the majority of Catholics and non-Catholics get most of their “knowledge” from the mainstream media and not Catholic sources, then any ambiguity in our Holy Father’s words can become an easy target and result in damaging consequences.

Case in point - I was just watching the local news a couple nights back, and the reporter was interviewing a Catholic lesbian living with her “wife”, and she was ecstatic about the Pope’s words on how her lifestyle has now become accepted in the Church. IMHO, this is very dangerous and could lead many eternal souls to perdition if not clarified succinctly and swiftly.

 

[edwest2]

This seems to be the biggest issue. I think many here on CAF think that the majority of Catholics are as informed as they are. Problem is, those who care about their faith enough to post on a Catholic forum are probably much more informed then your everyday Catholic.

If every Catholic was as knowledgeable about the faith as a typical CAF poster, then Pope Francis’s choice of words would not be a cause of concern. However, because the majority of Catholics and non-Catholics get most of their “knowledge” from the mainstream media and not Catholic sources, then any ambiguity in our Holy Father’s words can become an easy target and result in damaging consequences.

Case in point - I was just watching the local news a couple nights back, and the reporter was interviewing a Catholic lesbian living with her “wife”, and she was ecstatic about the Pope’s words on how her lifestyle has now become accepted in the Church. IMHO, this is very dangerous and could lead many eternal souls to perdition if not clarified succinctly and swiftly.

You are right. And each of us can make those clarifications here and contact our local, national or other news source to politely point out any errors. I think helping just one person know the truth about Church teaching is of immense value. We need to evangelize some of our brothers and sisters who have become confused or believe inaccurate and false “news.”

And be undaunted.

Peace,
Ed

 

[AndyP2010]

So who does more damage to the body of Christ?

1000 misinformed reporters, or 10 angry Catholics who feel the need to micro-manage the Pope on the internet?

Or maybe the thousands of angry Catholics who are still upset over the red shoes.

 

[severus68]

Perhaps he is saying things just fine, but traditionalists aren’t comfortable with those things?

As you know, many liberals use the tactic of, “well, the Pope didn’t** really** mean what he said… here’s how I’m going to re-interpret it.”

I don’t think “traditionalists” are above using the same strategy. We’ve got a crowd here that is to the right of the Church on many issues, e.g. capital punishment, war, torture, poverty, etc.

Yes.

 

[AndyP2010]

Also, in times like these, its best to reconcile the tough things in the Church with the acceptable things to make it look as one complete whole. So God’s mercy as compatible with God’s law as the article posted by the Randy illustrates. This way you leave no room for interpretation of things in a progressive way.

and you most likely end up not saying anything. Goodness knows what you and Randy think of the Bible, divinely inspired and inerrant, and yet look at what 500 year of ‘Bible alone’ has done to the Church. Of course it is the word of God and one of the Churches greatest treasures.

 

[larsont7]

Originally Posted by VeritasLuxMea
I don’t think “traditionalists” are above using the same strategy. We’ve got a crowd here that is to the right of the Church on many issues, e.g. capital punishment, war, torture, poverty, etc.

What does it mean to be to the right of the Church on these issues?

Capital punishment - the Church does not make a doctrinal statement one way or the other on this issue; recent Popes and the current CCC say its use is generally no longer necessary, but it is NOT an intrinsic evil and a Catholic is free to support or oppose its use.

War - not sure what you mean by this either. I don’t think anyone wishes or hopes for war, and if they do, then yes, they aren’t following Church teaching. However, whether or not a specific war is considered just is a very complicated issue, and does not have simple answers. One can have an opinion about whether or not a war is just without falling out of line of Church teaching.

Torture - I must have missed the thread where traditionalists were promoting torture, so I’ll leave this one alone.

Poverty - I don’t know how anyone can be to the right of the Church regarding poverty. I’m sure all faithful Catholics (traditional or not) wish for an end to poverty. Now whether, and to what extent, the government should be involved can be debated, but the only official Church teaching on poverty is that we are all called to help our brothers and sisters in need to the best of our ability.

 

[severus68]

The problem, from my perspective, is that they are essentially political labels. They don’t necessarily make it easier for us to communicate because these labels bring their own baggage with them from the political arena, and they cause people to get defensive. I am Catholic–neither liberal nor conservative but Catholic. I accept Church teaching and attempt to follow it to the best of my, albeit limited, ability. I worship it the ways permitted by the Church and I am obedient to my bishop who is in authority over me. I don’t lobby for change in areas that can’t be changed. My preferences in other areas are just that my preferences but they don’t change the fact that I am Catholic. If one were to look closely and avoid superficial labels one would find in some area’s of practice I am very conservative, in others maybe my thought is more on the liberal side but to label me one way or the other does a diservice to me and I would venture to say to a good many others. I feel ill served by both political parties and by the labels conservative and liberal. I feel rather than helping the conversation they just muddy the waters.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

Agreed. These labels just divide and confuse. The Church does not use them, why do we need to?

 

[JustaServant]

This is absolutely not the reality of our modern day media. Many newspapers etc. have an AGENDA.

After last week’s interview with the Pope, one local newspaper had a headline proclaiming “Pope, Bishop At Odds on Gays” – a deliberate distortion and “vested interest” to divide the community and nurture anti-Catholic bias in our community. It had nothing to do with “reflecting a reality of what is happening with the people inside the church.”

Much of the media are pro-abortion and pro-gay “marriage”, and intentionally misrepresents the Catholic and other churches which have a different agenda than theirs.

Peruse this site sometime:
chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/

Journalism has always been in the business of exploitation and sensationalism. Headlines attract readers. Who’s gonna read “Pope makes statements in line with Church teaching”?

 

[clem456]

This seems to be the biggest issue. I think many here on CAF think that the majority of Catholics are as informed as they are. Problem is, those who care about their faith enough to post on a Catholic forum are probably much more informed then your everyday Catholic.

Knowledge is power, they say. But Christianity is not about power. It is clear in the Gospels that the demons know God, they proclaim the truth of who Jesus is. They are full of knowledge. So? Our knowledge will turn to dust as Paul says in Corinthians:

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

While we are reading and posting on the internet, puffing up our knowledge, someone is down at the soup kitchen, someone else is at adoration, a single mother is working to send her kids to Catholic schools, someone is visiting the nursing home to care for the forgotten. Our knowledge will turn to dust someday.

If every Catholic was as knowledgeable about the faith as a typical CAF poster, then Pope Francis’s choice of words would not be a cause of concern. However, because the majority of Catholics and non-Catholics get most of their “knowledge” from the mainstream media and not Catholic sources, then any ambiguity in our Holy Father’s words can become an easy target and result in damaging consequences.

And so? What are we to do? Catholics don’t control the media. People have been giving false testimony since that Friday morning 2000 years ago. What did Jesus do in the face of misunderstanding? Show some fortitude, continue to be faithful, love his enemies and those who are lost. He did it with very few words, and was completely misunderstood. What did most of his orthodox followers do? Abandon him. Notice he was not successful by the standards we are holding Francis to. There is a huge difference between being successful and being faithful, that distinction is lost in this discussion. If you want success and popularity, Christianity might not be for you.

Case in point - I was just watching the local news a couple nights back, and the reporter was interviewing a Catholic lesbian living with her “wife”, and she was ecstatic about the Pope’s words on how her lifestyle has now become accepted in the Church. IMHO, this is very dangerous and could lead many eternal souls to perdition if not clarified succinctly and swiftly.

Why do you worry about things that are outside the call God has given you this morning?

 

[Jaberwocky]

and you most likely end up not saying anything. Goodness knows what you and Randy think of the Bible, divinely inspired and inerrant, and yet look at what 500 year of ‘Bible alone’ has done to the Church. Of course it is the word of God and one of the Churches greatest treasures.

And argumentation like yours is the biggest problem in this thread.

No one is saying the Bible is not Orthodox. No one is saying that Pope Francis is not Orthodox. What everyone is pointing out is that the Pope Francis has been ambiguous in his language.

The Church is needed because she provides clear teaching for the faithful to follow by interpreting Bible and Tradition. When the Church itself is ambiguous in her teaching, that is when we get confusion and the Church becomes a tool to be used just as the Bible is used with respect to its ambiguous sounding passages.

So your example is a good one. But your analogy is a failure. This thread shows that ambiguous language is bad when used by the Church. That is because she is suppossed to teach the faithful very clearly. If the Church itself starts becoming equally ambiguous, then we just have the same problem as “Bible alone”.

 

[Jaberwocky]

Knowledge is power, they say. But Christianity is not about power. It is clear in the Gospels that the demons know God, they proclaim the truth of who Jesus is. They are full of knowledge. So? Our knowledge will turn to dust as Paul says in Corinthians:

While we are reading and posting on the internet, puffing up our knowledge, someone is down at the soup kitchen, someone else is at adoration, a single mother is working to send her kids to Catholic schools, someone is visiting the nursing home to care for the forgotten. Our knowledge will turn to dust someday.

This is a purely rhetoric based argument made to make the other party feel some emotional guilt. One could equally counter argue that while you were on this forum typing up a reply, the same thing was happening.

Aside from all that, Knowledge is a GIFT of the Holy Spirit. So if I were you, I would take a serious look at your own Theology here.

It is also important to understand what St. Paul refers to as knowledge. He is not speaking about Divine Revelation which is knowledge in itself. If all knowledge were worthless, then even Divine Revelation is worthless. So no, Paul is clearly speaking about something else.

Seeking the knowledge of the Holy religion and discussing it IS fruitful.

And so? What are we to do? Catholics don’t control the media. People have been giving false testimony since that Friday morning 2000 years ago. What did Jesus do in the face of misunderstanding? Show some fortitude, continue to be faithful, love his enemies and those who are lost. He did it with very few words, and was completely misunderstood. What did most of his orthodox followers do? Abandon him. Notice he was not successful by the standards we are holding Francis to. There is a huge difference between being successful and being faithful, that distinction is lost in this discussion. If you want success and popularity, Christianity might not be for you.

So lets follow your early Church analogy. What happened when Christ was misrepresented? They were pronounced as heretics and the heresy was suppressed and the position was restated with clarity and force. So your idea that the early Church did nothing against those who misrepresented her is false.

The Church also issued decrees on her position on misrepresented issues through councils, decrees, encyclicals, dogmatic pronunciations which were super clear and took every care to avoid causing confusion and misunderstanding.

As for success and popularity, there is a lot of popularity and success today in that sense but no clear conveying of the faith in these interviews. It is certainly packed in the words of the interview but unpacking it is not something that the average Catholic and non-Catholic who reads the interview can even come close to doing.

Why do you worry about things that are outside the call God has given you this morning?

How can we presume what his/her call is this morning?

 

[clem456]

This is a purely rhetoric based argument made to make the other party feel some emotional guilt.

No, it’s an observation. You think serving others and spending time in prayer is based in emotion?

One could equally counter argue that while you were on this forum typing up a reply, the same thing was happening.

That’s why I said we. You and I. Us

Aside from all that, Knowledge is a GIFT of the Holy Spirit. So if I were you, I would take a serious look at your own Theology here.

I don’t have my own theology.

It is also important to understand what St. Paul refers to as knowledge. He is not speaking about Divine Revelation which is knowledge in itself. If all knowledge were worthless, then even Divine Revelation is worthless. So no, Paul is clearly speaking about something else.

Let’s hear St Paul speak about knowledge for himself:

13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,** but do not have love, I gain nothing…

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away**.

 

[edwest2]

Peruse this site sometime:
chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/

Journalism has always been in the business of exploitation and sensationalism. Headlines attract readers. Who’s gonna read “Pope makes statements in line with Church teaching”?

Not so. I work in the media and watched news go from news to infotainment. Pick up a copy of the Creation of the Media by Pulitzer Prize Winner, Paul Starr. As recently as 2000, veteran newsman, Walter Cronkite, was telling Larry King that he was concerned about the tabloidization of the news. If anything, this is one piece of evidence that the media, in some cases, no longer wants to report news accurately, and wants to distort news to serve an agenda.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Jaberwocky]

No, it’s an observation. You think serving others and spending time in prayer is based in emotion?

No, you were trying to say “you should feel bad about yourself for wasting time here” because “knowledge is dust”.

That’s why I said we. You and I. Us

But you are still here?

I don’t have my own theology.

The one you stated though was incorrect. St. Paul by no means was speaking on knowledge in general. To say as such is incorrect.

Let’s hear St Paul speak about knowledge for himself:

I think the main problem here is that you are not getting the full message. Knowledge includes information on how to love as well. Divine revelation itself, including the words of St. Paul is Knowledge. So St. Paul is not saying knowledge is not important just as much as he is not saying prophecy is not important.

His point is that the knowledge should then be used to LOVE and LOVE correctly. Now as hopefully we all know, instructing the ignorant and passing down the truths of our Holy Religion to others and discussing it is also an act of LOVE. It is an act of Spiritual Charity. There is a distinction between temporal charity and spiritual charity of which spiritual charity is actually held above temporal works of charity.

So I still have to say that what you said before was not right. But I do not wish to discuss this further because the topic of this thread is not about you or me or what others should be doing instead of spending time on CAF.

 

[edwest2]

I do wish people would stop blaming “the media” if/when something goes awry within the Catholic church.

Journalists report on what is happening, on what people are saying and doing and feeling, on what is in front of their eyes.
They don’t care if the Church “remakes” itself or not, they don’t put quotes in the pope’s mouth, they don’t have a vested interest in what is happening or not happening within the Catholic church…unless they are a religious publication.

Editors/reporters look to see if there is anything new said or done that day, and if so, they report on it.
The pope gave a hard-hitting interview about abortion and “the throwaway culture” days following that big, “controversial” interview last week…and this vague “media” group you speak of reported on that, too, en masse.

The media are not “accomplices” in remaking the Catholic church. And they can’t always report in ways that will make you happy.

They are reflecting a reality of what is happening with the people inside the church.
It may not be an accurate reflection of what is in the hearts and minds of many here on CAF–I think it surely is not–but it is accurate for many, many other Catholic churchgoers.

.

I disagree. The media is a tool by which to shape public opinion.

Peace,
Ed

 

[clem456]

So lets follow your early Church analogy. What happened when Christ was misrepresented?

He quietly went to his death. Many of his followers were martyred.

They were pronounced as heretics and the heresy was suppressed and the position was restated with clarity and force. So your idea that the early Church did nothing against those who misrepresented her is false.

Force never solves anything. This is Christianity without the cross.

The Church also issued decrees on her position on misrepresented issues through councils, decrees, encyclicals, dogmatic pronunciations which were super clear and took every care to avoid causing confusion and misunderstanding.

As for success and popularity, there is a lot of popularity and success today in that sense but no clear conveying of the faith in these interviews. It is certainly packed in the words of the interview but unpacking it is not something that the average Catholic and non-Catholic who reads the interview can even come close to doing.

You’re criticizing the conveyance of the faith by the successor to Peter.
Average Catholics take the Pope’s words at face value.
Our sidewalk prayer group is going to the clinic this Saturday. They don’t seem to be stuck in confusion and anxiety.