Vatican II All Over Again

[larsont7]

McCall, are you really praying for this?

The man is …

I wonder if you guys are aware of this; Cardinal Bergoglio instituted a weekly Tridentine Mass in Buenos Aires three days after Summorum Pontificum was issued. Are traditionalists aware of this? Do any of you know that he was one of the first Bishops in the world to respond to Summorum Pontificum???

To clarify something, your insistence that Cardinal Bergoglio instituted a weekly TLM Buenos Aires is not true. And after SP was issued, the TLM no longer needed to be “allowed”. That was an Ecclesia Dei provision, not Summorum Pontificum. See more about the TLM in Buenos Aires from people who were around the situation: rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-summorum-pontificum-was-blocked-and.html

As to the list you gave, clearly Pope Francis has done enough to earn our respect and love. I don’t think anyone here questions that. However, that doesn’t always make him right on everything, even as Pope.

I doubt you’d disagree that there are many other popes who have made errors (Pope Honorius is a good example). The protection of the Holy Spirit for the Holy Father is on issues regarding faith and morals when declared ex cathedra. Whether or not the Pope is speaking clearly enough to the press in an interview does not qualify under papal infallibility, so lay people are free to believe that some of his statements should be stated with less ambiguity.

 

[OraLabora]

McCall, are you really praying for this?

The man is

• 76 years old.
• Speaks eight languages including coversational Latin.
• Has been a Jesuit, consecrated religious for 56 years
• Has a degree in philosophy and taught literature and psychology at high school and college levels
• Has been a priest for 53 years
• Was novice master and professor of theology at a major seminary, and was a seminary rector for six years
• Was a Provincial Superior of the Jesuits for six years
• Has been a bishop for 21 years
• Has been Metropolitan Archbishop of one of the largest archdiocese on earth for over 15 years
• Served for six years as the president of the Argentine Conference of Catholic Bishops
• Served as the ordinary for the Eastern Catholics in Argentina while also serving as a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church
• Has been a cardinal for 12 years
• Held five positions on the curia including head of the Congregation for Divine Worship

I wonder if you guys are aware of this; Cardinal Bergoglio instituted a weekly Tridentine Mass in Buenos Aires three days after Summorum Pontificum was issued. Are traditionalists aware of this? Do any of you know that he was one of the first Bishops in the world to respond to Summorum Pontificum???

I’m a pretty smart guy but this man’s qualifications in just about any area make me want to go into the corner, curl up in the fetal position and suck my thumb. I don’t know what I could possibly think that I understand better than he, except maybe how to configure a Cisco switch or how to set up an email server.

I don’t think I would have the guts to kneel before God and pray that this man attains to my level of understanding on just about anything. I think Jesus would come out of the monstrance, put his arm around me and just laugh…

-Tim-

Tim, I agree wholeheartedly.

Then I’m a Benedictine oblate, and we’re supposed to be faithful to the Holy Father, so maybe I’m just blind to his “obvious misunderstandings”

Frankly, in the last few days, the various threads about the Holy Father and other topics on this forum have really started to nauseate me.

 

[severus68]

McCall, are you really praying for this?

The man is

• 76 years old.
• Speaks eight languages including coversational Latin.
• Has been a Jesuit, consecrated religious for 56 years
• Has a degree in philosophy and taught literature and psychology at high school and college levels
• Has been a priest for 53 years
• Was novice master and professor of theology at a major seminary, and was a seminary rector for six years
• Was a Provincial Superior of the Jesuits for six years
• Has been a bishop for 21 years
• Has been Metropolitan Archbishop of one of the largest archdiocese on earth for over 15 years
• Served for six years as the president of the Argentine Conference of Catholic Bishops
• Served as the ordinary for the Eastern Catholics in Argentina while also serving as a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church
• Has been a cardinal for 12 years
• Held five positions on the curia including head of the Congregation for Divine Worship

I wonder if you guys are aware of this; Cardinal Bergoglio instituted a weekly Tridentine Mass in Buenos Aires three days after Summorum Pontificum was issued. Are traditionalists aware of this? Do any of you know that he was one of the first Bishops in the world to respond to Summorum Pontificum???

I’m a pretty smart guy but this man’s qualifications in just about any area make me want to go into the corner, curl up in the fetal position and suck my thumb. I don’t know what I could possibly think that I understand better than he, except maybe how to configure a Cisco switch or how to set up an email server.

I don’t think I would have the guts to kneel before God and pray that this man attains to my level of understanding on just about anything. I think Jesus would come out of the monstrance, put his arm around me and just laugh…

-Tim-

Impressive. I would be humbled before him in any case because of his humility and the love he preaches and practises. Its so great to see Christ’s message shining through.

 

[AndyP2010]

I hate to break this to you but I have had Pope Francis quoted to me (his interview) by many in various countries as I spoke to them about abortion recently. They knew the interview but they didn’t know about the condemnation.

As I said once before, you are arguing a rather moot point. The fact that the language is ambiguous is pretty clear. I could quote some parts of the interview and ask you what they mean and you will struggle just as many Apologists are struggling to interpret what they mean.

How do you expect the average Catholic to interpret it successfully?

The best language is to be direct. No one gets confused by direct language (that is a fact). Have you heard anyone misquote the condemnation on abortion? No, because its nearly impossible to do so.

So you have a scientific study of the handful of people you have talked to who are confused, Pew research would be proud.

Again it is ambiguous because you said so, really? I will note that several posters have asked for an example of ambiguous statements and none has been provided yet, you say you have a few that your having trouble with maybe we can unpack one together.

 

[AndyP2010]

or you could do what I did.

Go to a Jesuit website and see how the SJs were responding.

The Jesuit Post has a series of reactions to the interview you and other apologist might find helpful. Brother Jay has been suggesting that we get a Jesuit perspective on the Pope. In other word, if you want to understand S. Francis ask a Franciscan, and if you want to understand Pope Francis ask a Jesuit.

 

[AndyP2010]

Apparently Fr. Frank Pavone was having dinner with the Pope when news of the interview broke.

Fr. Frank Pavone

In his recent interview, he made it clear that the Church should put opposition to abortion “in context.” This is neither new nor unwelcome. The Pope wants to see the renunciation of abortion put in the context of mercy toward the mother, and this is consistent with the pro-life movement’s emphasis on “loving them both.” In fact, in my personal conversations with the Pope, he particularly urged me to go forward with the work of Rachel’s Vineyard, the largest ministry in the world for healing after abortion. He called it an “excellent work.”

Read the whole thing.

 

[choliks]

Apparently Fr. Frank Pavone was having dinner with the Pope when news of the interview broke.

Fr. Frank Pavone

Read the whole thing.

Makes me think of Liberation Theology. Without the context of the Gospel, Liberation Theology is reduced to a marxist class struggle.

 

[Megan7]

McCall, are you really praying for this?

The man is

• 76 years old.
• Speaks eight languages including coversational Latin.
• Has been a Jesuit, consecrated religious for 56 years
• Has a degree in philosophy and taught literature and psychology at high school and college levels
• Has been a priest for 53 years
• Was novice master and professor of theology at a major seminary, and was a seminary rector for six years
• Was a Provincial Superior of the Jesuits for six years
• Has been a bishop for 21 years
• Has been Metropolitan Archbishop of one of the largest archdiocese on earth for over 15 years
• Served for six years as the president of the Argentine Conference of Catholic Bishops
• Served as the ordinary for the Eastern Catholics in Argentina while also serving as a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church
• Has been a cardinal for 12 years
• Held five positions on the curia including head of the Congregation for Divine Worship

I wonder if you guys are aware of this; Cardinal Bergoglio instituted a weekly Tridentine Mass in Buenos Aires three days after Summorum Pontificum was issued. Are traditionalists aware of this? Do any of you know that he was one of the first Bishops in the world to respond to Summorum Pontificum???

I’m a pretty smart guy but this man’s qualifications in just about any area make me want to go into the corner, curl up in the fetal position and suck my thumb. I don’t know what I could possibly think that I understand better than he, except maybe how to configure a Cisco switch or how to set up an email server.

I don’t think I would have the guts to kneel before God and pray that this man attains to my level of understanding on just about anything. I think Jesus would come out of the monstrance, put his arm around me and just laugh…

-Tim-

Would you happen to know which 8 languages? Just curious.

Also, I thought that the reason he prays the Mass in Italian is because his Latin is not up to par. And I think Brother JR, might have mentioned that his Italian is on the rusty side. So, I was wondering besides Spanish, what other languages does he speak? Is he fluent in English? What about German & French? Just a curiosity. Thank you.

Thanks for the post, it is impressive. God bless

 

[Aramis]

Would you happen to know which 8 languages? Just curious.

Also, I thought that the reason he prays the Mass in Italian is because his Latin is not up to par. And I think Brother JR, might have mentioned that his Italian is on the rusty side. So, I was wondering besides Spanish, what other languages does he speak? Is he fluent in English? What about German & French? Just a curiosity. Thank you.

Thanks for the post, it is impressive. God bless

Ukrainian. UGCC Patriarch Sviatoslav has mentioned this. It was a requisite skill for the UGCC Divine Liturgy, and he was a biritual priest, and later bishop. Of course, the needed amount to say the liturgy is not even conversational, and HH doesn’t count it as fluent.

French, German, Italian, Spanish, English: Mentioned here: ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-and-english-as-a-second-or-third-language
His Holiness notes that his english is very poor, and his German and French are out of usefulness due to lack of use.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So you have a scientific study of the handful of people you have talked to who are confused, Pew research would be proud.

Again it is ambiguous because you said so, really? I will note that several posters have asked for an example of ambiguous statements and none has been provided yet, you say you have a few that your having trouble with maybe we can unpack one together.

Andy-

These are silly questions, and they are uncalled for.

It is obvious to anyone who bothers to read that Catholic news outlets and bloggers the world over are grappling with what we’ve witnessed since the conclave.

NARAL ran an ad thanking Francis, for cryin’ out loud. Doesn’t that tell you anything?

http://www.lifesitenews.com/images/sized/images/news/NARAL_Prochoice-240x240.png

 

[Sirach2]

Andy-

These are silly questions, and they are uncalled for.

It is obvious to anyone who bothers to read that Catholic news outlets and bloggers the world over are grappling with what we’ve witnessed since the conclave.

NARAL ran an ad thanking Francis, for cryin’ out loud. Doesn’t that tell you anything?

I disagree that other posters are asking “silly questions” for which, btw, there have been no answers. I’m rather disgusted with this thread which seems to me to be purely agenda driven, besmirching a Holy Pontiff and questioning his media involvements as if he is incompetent.

Moreover, what does this thread have to do with Vatican II? It is a sorry collection of ad hominems that cause me to ask, where’s charity?

 

[AndyP2010]

Andy-

These are silly questions, and they are uncalled for.

It is obvious to anyone who bothers to read that Catholic news outlets and bloggers the world over are grappling with what we’ve witnessed since the conclave.

NARAL ran an ad thanking Francis, for cryin’ out loud. Doesn’t that tell you anything?

It tells me some people lack critical thinking skills. If you can’t see that NARAL is clearly trying to spread disillusionment among their enemies, then you have a problem. You and others are buying into the panic they and their unholy allies want to create among the faithful. Worse yet you insist on spreading your fear to others. Get ahold of yourself man!

Galatians 3:1

O stupid* Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

Who has bewitched you indeed?

 

[ProVobis]

Ukrainian. UGCC Patriarch Sviatoslav has mentioned this. It was a requisite skill for the UGCC Divine Liturgy, and he was a biritual priest, and later bishop. Of course, the needed amount to say the liturgy is not even conversational, and HH doesn’t count it as fluent.

French, German, Italian, Spanish, English: Mentioned here: ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-francis-and-english-as-a-second-or-third-language
His Holiness notes that his english is very poor, and his German and French are out of usefulness due to lack of use.

FWIW, I get the papal tweets (usually daily one-sentence messages) in languages other than English and I notice that many of them differ slightly. For example, one would have “Dominum” and the other has no mention of the “Lord.” IMO this is no trivial matter, especially if we presume everyone’s getting the same message.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I disagree that other posters are asking “silly questions” for which, btw, there have been no answers. I’m rather disgusted with this thread which seems to me to be purely agenda driven, besmirching a Holy Pontiff and questioning his media involvements as if he is incompetent.

If the thread troubles you or makes you mad, feel free to find others that are more to your liking. There’s no sense falling into sin because of a thread on the Internet, ya know?

ALL that has really been said in this thread is that the media and LIBERAL, cafeteria Catholics who are lukewarm at best about their allegiance to the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church seem to be having a field day with much of what Francis has said and done over the past six months or so.

Expressions of concern and hopes that the Holy Father will learn to speak in terms that the media and the low information consumers of religious news (atheists, homosexuals, etc.) will be able to absorb in small chunks have been offered.

What fascinates me is how strident some have become in responding to those who have expressed these concerns and hopes.

Moreover, what does this thread have to do with Vatican II? It is a sorry collection of ad hominems that cause me to ask, where’s charity?

After Vatican II, liberal theologians, priests and laity attempted to introduce all sorts of ideas and nonsense into the Church and they cited “the Spirit of Vatican II” in support of their novelties - liturgical dance, the ordination of women, you name it. If there was an agenda item that some group wanted to advance, Vatican II was somehow implicated as having given permission for the change. It took John Paul 25 years to undo the damage - primarily by naming orthodox, conservative bishops and cardinals.

The same thing seems to be happening to Francis as liberals everywhere come out of the woodwork to embrace a Pope who seems to pooh-pooh to tired rules of the Catholic Church.

In reality Francis is as orthodox as they come (as best I can tell so far) - BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE WORLD IS HEARING. They get their catechesis from a headline in USA Today.

For that reason, some (myself included) have expressed concern and the hope that Francis will learn how to pack more into his soundbites. That’s all. My bet is that he will realize that he’s being misquoted, and will learn how to speak in ways that even liberals cannot misunderstand.

Finally, if you could quote a single post wherein the Holy Father is attacked personally, I would be happy to address it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It tells me some people lack critical thinking skills. If you can’t see that NARAL is clearly trying to spread disillusionment among their enemies, then you have a problem. You and others are buying into the panic they and their unholy allies want to create among the faithful. Worse yet you insist on spreading your fear to others. Get ahold of yourself man!

As for me personally panicking, well, you don’t know me very well.

But I agree that NARAL does want to discourage those who have been resisting the abortion industry for so long.

In effect, their ad says to the pro-life worker, “See, even the Pope has abandoned you. You are alone now.”

 

[agnes_therese]

In effect, their ad says to the pro-life worker, “See, even the Pope has abandoned you. You are alone now.”

But I don’t know any pro-life workers who would listen to a message from NARAL over a message from the Pope.

 

[Sirach2]

What fascinates me is how strident some have become in responding to those who have expressed these concerns and hopes.

For that reason, some (myself included) have expressed concern and the hope that Francis will learn how to pack more into his soundbites. That’s all. My bet is that he will realize that he’s being misquoted, and will learn how to speak in ways that even liberals cannot misunderstand.

Just a simple refresher course:

Allow me to repeat my most frequently offered piece of advice. Focus on what’s immediately before you and on what is calling for your immediate attention first. When you have fixed it all, then you can meander out to fixing what the pope says or does.

Begin on

1. Your soul
2. Your spouse, if you have one; religious community, if you have one; immediate family, if you have no spouse or community
3. Your children, if you have any
4. Your parish
5. Your job
6. Your domestic duties

If you still have time and energy, then go fix whatever you think that the pope broke that you now have to go out and pick up the pieces.

As for me, the pope is not my child. I am not his boss. I don’t work for him. I feel no obligation to even look around to make sure that he has not left any candy wrappers, much less alleged or imagined bloopers. If he calls on me to serve in this capacity, then I will serve. But I don’t think he’ll ever call. **He has enough people telling him what to do **

One of the things that I most admire about Pope Francis is that he knows how we think, but he doesn’t give a darn. One of the things that make me chuckle about us in Traddom, is that we have been screaming for a pope who flexes his muscles. Here he is. Here is a pope who does, says and drives what he wants. Suddenly, we are very uncomfortable.** We wanted to pick and choose which muscles he flexes**. But if that were the case, he’d be a figurehead driven by a constituency and by traditions that don’t bind him. A pope who flexes his muscles is one who preaches the Gospel, using his style, he words, according to what he sees to be the need of the Church and accepts the advice and feedback of those whom he chooses, not those who choose to offer it. That’s real freedom of power.

 

[edwest2]

If the thread troubles you or makes you mad, feel free to find others that are more to your liking. There’s no sense falling into sin because of a thread on the Internet, ya know?

ALL that has really been said in this thread is that the media and LIBERAL, cafeteria Catholics who are lukewarm at best about their allegiance to the Pope and the Magisterium of the Church seem to be having a field day with much of what Francis has said and done over the past six months or so.

Expressions of concern and hopes that the Holy Father will learn to speak in terms that the media and the low information consumers of religious news (atheists, homosexuals, etc.) will be able to absorb in small chunks have been offered.

What fascinates me is how strident some have become in responding to those who have expressed these concerns and hopes.

After Vatican II, liberal theologians, priests and laity attempted to introduce all sorts of ideas and nonsense into the Church and they cited “the Spirit of Vatican II” in support of their novelties - liturgical dance, the ordination of women, you name it. If there was an agenda item that some group wanted to advance, Vatican II was somehow implicated as having given permission for the change. It took John Paul 25 years to undo the damage - primarily by naming orthodox, conservative bishops and cardinals.

The same thing seems to be happening to Francis as liberals everywhere come out of the woodwork to embrace a Pope who seems to pooh-pooh to tired rules of the Catholic Church.

In reality Francis is as orthodox as they come (as best I can tell so far) - BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE WORLD IS HEARING. They get their catechesis from a headline in USA Today.

For that reason, some (myself included) have expressed concern and the hope that Francis will learn how to pack more into his soundbites. That’s all. My bet is that he will realize that he’s being misquoted, and will learn how to speak in ways that even liberals cannot misunderstand.

Finally, if you could quote a single post wherein the Holy Father is attacked personally, I would be happy to address it.

Pope John Paul II did some things the Los Angeles Times did not like like.
Pope Benedict said that if someone (in the “real” world) had NOT said something bad about him on a given day, he had to do another examination of conscience to make sure he had not done something to ‘help.’
Pope Francis, from DAY ONE, was, according to the media, the Liberal they were hoping for. He has not and will not bend his will to the dark… er, Liberal Side, and the Darth Vaders of the media are trying to reinterpret him through their ‘liberal colored glasses.’
Liberals want it their way. I think that’s the point being missed. As we can see with our upside down “culture” now, black is white, up is down, good is bad and orthodox is very bad. Can’t have that. People might notice.

And if people notice, they might get the correct catechesis. The media is not stupid or missing the point.

Peace,
Ed

 

[JReducation]

Why be so concerned about how others interpret the pope? He does not seem to be concerned at all and he’s doing the speaking.

Sometimes, we take on ourselves burdens and responsibilities that are not ours to take on. Our task is to take on what the pope says that we should take on. Anything else that is not directed at us can and should be left alone. Otherwise we run the risk of doing the same thing as the media; that is, being on constant watch. That’s no way to live the spiritual life.

St. Peter reminds us that we must be alert for our opponent the devil is looking for sometone to devour. The devil is very astute. He draws our attention to that which is distant from us so that we are careless about the dangers that are right in front of our noses.

What I’ve done and commanded my brothers to do is to pick and choose from what the pope has said. If it is something that we should take care of or that immediately affects how we work, pray and live, then deal with it. If it’s about someone else out there, let them deal with it. As St. Peter says, it’s YOUR opponent that you must worry about, not that of others.

I can only be my brothers keeper, if I have what it takes to keep my brother.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Just a simple refresher course:

Interesting advice, Sirach2.

Let me move to #4. Your parish. Of course, you meant the parish where I attend mass each week. But isn’t CAF a part of our spiritual community, too? Don’t we have an opportunity here to interact with many, many people who have questions, comments, concerns and an earnest desire to learn more about the Catholic faith? I could go on to describe the various categories of people who visit CAF: from anti-Catholics to non-Catholics to RCIA candidates to mature Catholics who have a question posed by someone at work. Then there are the non-Christians and the curious who stop in for a variety of reasons. Regardless of where they are coming from, they are all looking for Catholic Answers. So, I try to share with them what I’ve learned as best I can, and if I don’t know the answer, I go find it.

Hopefully, that helps someone along the way.