Vatican II Ambiguities

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No, it actually states that the “first great commandment” is to love God and neighbor. Per Jesus, the first great commandment is to love God (not neighbor). The second commandment is to love neighbor. Yes, both are related, but we are to love God first.
No? I stated God was mentioned first. God is in *fact *mentioned first; **God **(mentioned first), and (a conjuction), neighbor (the second object). Since we do not believe in sola scriptura where everyone can interpret for themselves, perhaps we should listen more to the Church on this. They understand the answer of Jesus to be two-fold. He gave both objects as the answer to what the greatest commandment is. Therefore, this formulation is legitimate. This just demonstrates what I was saying. Our desire to self-interpret instead of being taught may be what causes ambiguity in individual understanding. Separating love of God and neighbor is a pointless exercise and one the Catholic Church does not do. They are more than related in Matthew 25. They are identical.

The Church does not proof-text, especially for useless points.
 
You’re not disagreeing with me then. You are disagreeing with Cardinal Kasper. He said nothing of biased agendas.
No, I am disagreeing with you. Cardinal Kasper said nothing of ambiguity. Substitute “perspective” if you like exact repetition. The point he made is that the person doing the reading is the factor. That is where my idea of bias comes from. The idea of this being an agenda is totally my opinion based on the source of these complaints. I notice similarities, like the Baltimore Catechism being used, that run throughout those critical of the Vatican II documents. I admit I may be wrong in this. It is just after nine years here at CAF, I keep seeing the same patterns over and over.
 
No? I stated God was mentioned first. God is in *fact *mentioned first; **God **(mentioned first), and (a conjuction), neighbor (the second object). Since we do not believe in sola scriptura where everyone can interpret for themselves, perhaps we should listen more to the Church on this. They understand the answer of Jesus to be two-fold. He gave both objects as the answer to what the greatest commandment is. Therefore, this formulation is legitimate. This just demonstrates what I was saying. Our desire to self-interpret instead of being taught may be what causes ambiguity in individual understanding. Separating love of God and neighbor is a pointless exercise and one the Catholic Church does not do. They are more than related in Matthew 25. They are identical.

The Church does not proof-text, especially for useless points.
You really don’t see the point I’m making, do you? The Vat2 document states that the FIRST great commandment is to love God AND neighbor. It doesn’t matter that it says “God” first. The point is that, in Scripture AND in previous teachings, it states that the first great commandment is to love God (period…God alone…no conjunctions). Previous teachings then go on to include loving our neighbors in the SECOND great commandment.

And you know what? This example, to me, is not an example of ambiguity. It’s an example of the documents being written in such a way as to say something apparently different than previous texts. Either the first great commandment is meant for God alone or it isn’t. Which is it?
 
No, I am disagreeing with you. Cardinal Kasper said nothing of ambiguity. Substitute “perspective” if you like exact repetition. The point he made is that the person doing the reading is the factor. That is where my idea of bias comes from. The idea of this being an agenda is totally my opinion based on the source of these complaints. I notice similarities, like the Baltimore Catechism being used, that run throughout those critical of the Vatican II documents. I admit I may be wrong in this. It is just after nine years here at CAF, I keep seeing the same patterns over and over.
"In many places, they had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit them

Again, I’m not sure how you can interpret this any other way than what it is saying. According to the Cardinal, the Council purposefully included (“designed”) both positions (the majority and the minority) into the texts (“located next to”). So, he’s not saying that the interpretations are the fault of the reader’s bias. That sounds more like your bias. He is saying that the different interpretations are the fault of the writings because BOTH sides were somehow literally included (and the reason for this was to obtain consensus on the documents). Before including these “compromise formulas”, they were having trouble getting consensus on the documents.

As for an agenda, this Cardinal is not even a traditionalist (heck, I’m not even a traditionalist). He has no agenda to push which is why I find his comments quite fascinating. I doubt he is being critical of the documents here. I would argue that he doesn’t think that ability to see different interpretations is a problem. I think he’s just being honest about what went down and how that has affected things up until current times.
 
And you know what? This example, to me, is not an example of ambiguity. It’s an example of the documents being written in such a way as to say something apparently different than previous texts. Either the first great commandment is meant for God alone or it isn’t. Which is it?
It is a third option. A false dichotomy. I see your question as the same as telling Jesus that we are either feeding, clothing and visiting Him or the least of our neighbors. Which is it? It can be both.

So, do you accept the teaching of the Church in Gaudium et Spes, or not? We either accept the doctrine of the Church or we do not. I have no problem reconciling the two statements. If this is difficult, then that is an indication that we need to take the student’s chair and not that of the teacher.
 
It is a third option. A false dichotomy. I see your question as the same as telling Jesus that we are either feeding, clothing and visiting Him or the least of our neighbors. Which is it? It can be both.

So, do you accept the teaching of the Church in Gaudium et Spes, or not? We either accept the doctrine of the Church or we do not. I have no problem reconciling the two statements. If this is difficult, then that is an indication that we need to take the student’s chair and not that of the teacher.
To the first analogy, sorry, that analogy doesn’t work here.

To answer your question, I am having trouble reconciling those two statements. They say two different things to me. Perhaps the intent wasn’t to write it the way it was written.
 
So, do you accept the teaching of the Church in Gaudium et Spes, or not? We either accept the doctrine of the Church or we do not. I have no problem reconciling the two statements. If this is difficult, then that is an indication that we need to take the student’s chair and not that of the teacher.
Wow! This is really strong and how can you presume to know the struggle in another’s mind. I, for one, am attempting to study in order to understand the confusion about the *slant *of some very specific post V2 statements that plague a large number of faithful Catholics. That is taking the student’s chair and when done in a manner of earnest seeking it can only enhance our faith through grace.

Bishop Nickless spoke of the authentic dualism within the Church today. Progressive or conservative? Orthodox or heterodox? This is so clearly experienced in my own parish and I (and others) suffer in silence when we acknowledge to ourselves that we could never attend the Catholic church down the street…it is a foreign entity to us with it’s “Spirit of Vat 2” and we know it with every fiber of our spiritual being. What would you like to do with us?
 
“If the Church were not divine, this Council would have buried it”.-Cardinal Siri
 
MODERATOR NOTE

Pope Benedict gave very specific and detailed answers as to how we are to approach Vatican II. Pope Francis has continued this same policy. There will be no other position offered here as an alternative for Catholics other than that which was offered by the Holy See. The only exception is for a Catholic who has the authority to offer a position different from that of the Holy See.
 
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YoungTradCath:
Ghislieri
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“If the Church were not divine, this Council would have buried it”.-Cardinal Siri
That’s a good quote.
And this gossip is helpful to the readers … how? Problem is, this was never verified as being a true statement of Cardinal Siri, but only one journalist, Lucio Brunelli, claims he said it. That’s what we call “hear-say” and should not be repeated. For a Cardinal to have truly said these words, surely other prelates would have heard it, too. It is nowhere to be found except in the words of this journalist and repeated in several trad articles as though it were gospel truth.

Cardinal Siri authored a book in 1981 “Gethsemane: Reflections on the Contemporary Theological Movement”. However, if he truly said this, there was his perfect opportunity to put his words to writing. 100 to 1 odds it is not in his book or trads would have jumped on this.
 
Bishop Nickless spoke of the authentic dualism within the Church today. Progressive or conservative? Orthodox or heterodox? This is so clearly experienced in my own parish and I (and others) suffer in silence when we acknowledge to ourselves that we could never attend the Catholic church down the street…it is a foreign entity to us with it’s “Spirit of Vat 2” and we know it with every fiber of our spiritual being. What would you like to do with us?
I’d love to hear some answers to that interrogative from some of the participants in this thread.
 
Again, though, the problem is that “reading in context” is very difficult for the average person, being ill-formed in theology, to do.

My favorite go-to example is Dignitatis Humanae because it confuses so many people. Much of what Dignitatis Humanae said was, simply, that a policy of religious toleration was a proper prudential response to the (suboptimal) circumstances of the present age, i.e., because the common good demands a different response now than was objectively appropriate in, say, the mid-16th century. But most people read “right to religious liberty” as, well, an endorsement of indifferentism, disestablishment, etc., because that’s how the term has historically been used by liberals, progressives, constitutionalists, etc. Much of the confusion here could’ve been cleared up if Dignitatis Humanae had simply endorsed “religious toleration” rather than a “right to religious liberty,” and framed it in the terms I put above. It declined to do this, I think, because in its zeal to speak to modern man, it co-opted modern man’s language, which is liberalism. Unfortunately, liberalism, being incompatible with Catholicism, produced the resulting confusion, as is to be expected when you attempt to express a philosophy in the language of a different, incompatible philosophy.

I agree in principle that, very carefully read, there is nothing wrong with the way Dignitatis Humanae describes the “right to religious liberty.” I’m actually writing a long essay on this very topic for publication somewhere. To understand it properly though, you have to understand that the Church uses “right” in a different way than liberalism does. For the Church, duties are ethically prior to rights, so to say that Protestants have a right to religious liberty is simply to say that Catholics must not coerce them unduly (“unduly” being both relevant and a much stricter criterion than most progressives would be happy with – for instance, a proper reading of Dignitatis Humanae would forbid a hypothetical King SW85 from throwing Lutherans in jail merely for being Lutherans, but he would be perfectly within his rights to throw them in jail for agitating for divorce). In other words, it’s not a right on their part as much as it is a duty on ours. Liberalism treats rights as ethically prior and duties simply as obligations to respect rights, so the “right to religious freedom” becomes a moral imperative on the part of all individual persons.

The problem, again, is that most people are incapable of very carefully reading theological documents because they do not have much theological formation and have nowhere to get it from reliably (this problem was worse in the 60s when even many clergymen were complicit in the active misrepresentation of Vatican II’s teachings). The problem is phrasing, always phrasing.

So we have a strange situation in that things like Dignitatis Humanae read one way to their intended audience (the theologically literate) and another way to their unintended audience. Was this done on purpose? If so, it would seem to be an example of a Straussian text. (Leo) Strauss argued that such texts are written because the writers typically have a gun to their head.

This statement evidences one of the more disconcerting tendencies endemic to the modern age, that views the Holy Spirit according to some kind of Calvinistic fideism that utterly absorbs and annihilates the free will of men regardless of their internal disposition. I don’t see much to support this view and it seems largely alien to the Church’s historical understanding of itself and its relation to the Holy Spirit, according to which the latter acted mainly in a prophylactic way, shielding the Church from outright catastrophe and error and otherwise only assisting it with grace when it genuinely and earnestly requested it. This view manifests most readily in the claim that the Holy Spirit picks the Pope (!!!), which I hear all the time. Maybe I’m missing something, though.

I agree 100% that the Holy Spirit protected the Church from theological (dogmatic or doctrinal) error. That’s a dogma of the faith. But the ideas you express are not the same thing as how you express your ideas. Ideas are dogmas or doctrines, but the expressions given to ideas are not: they are prudential matters, which is why the Church was free to change them (the expressions of the ideas, not the ideas themselves) in Vatican II in the first place. If the main purpose of Vatican II was, as some have argued, to re-express old ideas in new ways and not to promulgate new doctrines or dogmas, then there is no protection the Holy Spirit can give. Hence a Catholic can say, in good faith, that maybe this way of talking about the faith is not very fruitful and that we should abandon it.

I don’t get the objection to litanies of anathemas. Knowing what you’re expected to believe is a matter of salvation, which is why the Church’s Magisterium is protected from error under the right circumstances. Therefore it is very, very, very good for people to know exactly what they must believe and, correspondingly, what they absolutely are not permitted to believe. Thus, anathemas are a very, very, very good thing, which is maybe why the faith was thriving when they were in greater use.
Wow…how did I miss this post? Lots of great stuff in there (I especially liked the bolded)…thank you!
 
And this gossip is helpful to the readers … how? Problem is, this was never verified as being a true statement of Cardinal Siri, but only one journalist, Lucio Brunelli, claims he said it. That’s what we call “hear-say” and should not be repeated. For a Cardinal to have truly said these words, surely other prelates would have heard it, too. It is nowhere to be found except in the words of this journalist and repeated in several trad articles as though it were gospel truth.

**So Lucio Brunelli is a liar? I’m not trying to be inflamatory, but I don’t know why this statement so difficult to believe. It appears His Eminence was defending the Church despite the bad fruits that appeared?🤷 **

Cardinal Siri authored a book in 1981 “Gethsemane: Reflections on the Contemporary Theological Movement”. However, if he truly said this, there was his perfect opportunity to put his words to writing. 100 to 1 odds it is not in his book or trads would have jumped on this.

This is an agrument from silence and I’m not certain that proves anything. Is the “trads” statement meant as some sort of insult?:confused:
 
Hello (St. Pius of Trent - F.E., yes?) Ghislieri,

The reporter is merely a journalist, and before I would trust an independent journalist over a reputable Catholic news source, I would need to see either the Cardinal himself or one of his associates who knew him make the same statement. Check all over the search engines and this is the only person who ever made the claim. Nothing whatsoever on any reputable source such as, Zenit, Vatican News, EWTN, CNA, etc.

The only sources that are available on a search engine link to radical websites who repeated the journalist’s comment without substantiating it, just as you did here. I believe Thomas Casey told us not to gossip unless we can substantiate the information … besides discerning whether or not this news is beneficial to our audience at CAF.

Since the comment deprecates Vatican II, I do not see a value in repeating it. Trads who are usually disconsolate over V-II are prone to dispense this type of negativity, almost with eagerness. Remember, too, that this Cardinal signed ALL of the documents of V-II and prayed the mass of the 1970 Roman Missal, as per a source I checked. He was not a person to have made such a comment, IMO.

“If the Church were not divine, this Council would have buried it”.-Cardinal Siri
Yes, it is a defense of the Church being Divine, but a smear of the Council.
 
There’s a story out now about Cardinal Walter Kasper being quoted as saying that there were deliberate ambiguities inserted into the documents of Vatican II. I have been searching online about this and I see a lot of people agreeing and saying, We knew this all along, but every example of “ambiguity” someone gives seems very non-ambiguous.

Here’s one example- and I’m sorry but I’ve lost the original link. A claim was made that Dignitatus Humanae discourages coercion in matters of religion, but affirms a type of coercion as being permitted, so long as it is missionary. That’s not the exact wording of the claim. But I went through Dignitatus Humanae, and there is no statement with the word “coercion” or “coerce” which refers to it in any way but negative- no coercion is allowed, men are entitled to freedom from coercion, an immunity to coercion, it is a principle of the Church that no one is to be coerced into the faith.

One example doesn’t make an argument, of course. But with all the affirmations of ambiguities in the documents, someone here should be able to give a clear example of at least one obvious one. That is to say, an example from the documents themselves, NOT an example of someone else SAYING there is ambiguity, even if it’s one of the authors of the conciliar document.

Oh, and the example needs to be within reasonable bounds, not just an ambiguous definition of the same word in two different contexts. This is something a lot of people seem to feel very strongly about, so it has to stand up to a reasonable use of our faculties
I think the whole thing is meaningless and entirely academic. If anyone wants to try to compel someone into Catholicism, go ahead and try and see what happens. I honestly hope whoever forged the Donation of Constantine is in one of the deeper circles of Hell.
 
I’d love to hear some answers to that interrogative from some of the participants in this thread.
The Holy See has spoken and I will be obedient. If anyone sees anything they can authentically determine is wrong or missing in a Mass or other Church service, then they can formally, and accurately describe such things to their Bishop - not as accusation, but as a truthful account.

I was there before and after Vatican II. My obedience rests with the words of Holy Mother Church. I am in Church to worship God. Period. Should I see anything that I know for a fact is irregular, I will present the facts without bias to the appropriate authority.

Peace,
Ed
 
I think the whole thing is meaningless and entirely academic. If anyone wants to try to compel someone into Catholicism, go ahead and try and see what happens. I honestly hope whoever forged the Donation of Constantine is in one of the deeper circles of Hell.
Nothing is ever entirely academic.
 
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