Vatican II Ambiguities

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So, what do you propose? I can fully understand your passion and desire, but what are the steps? The whole of the Church is open to us. Who do we contact? Who are the grass roots today? And if you think they are ineffective then it it is up to the laity to approach our bishop, our diocese, and go direct. Bishops and Archbishops are people too, and a few may appreciate an active dialogue and taking action. Yes, I’m talking about picking up the phone and talking or scheduling a meeting with plan in hand. Failing that, perhaps you are the one to start a facebook page to get what people need out there. According to the trade publication, Website Magazine, facebook is number one with over a billion users.

So, the ball may end up in your court. I know that the minority out there may or may not have a plan as well, but it would take a bit of research to find that out.

Best,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Part of the answer to your question is the way the Church deals with dissenters and Catholics in public office who are clearly ignoring or disagreeing with Church authority. For example, a day or so ago, Governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, wants to decriminalize abortion after 24 weeks. Even here, a few people were calling for the excommunication of openly practicing Catholics in office for doing things like this. Isn’t it obvious that the Church has no reason to stay its hand regarding Catholics in public office?

But things are getting tougher now. In the past, we do not have the answers regarding what was going on behind the scenes right after Vatican II. Pope Benedict, shortly before stepping down, made two statements regarding Vatican II and his words give us a few clues although names are not named.

ncregister.com/daily-news/benedict-and-the-second-vatican-council-calming-the-storm/

ncregister.com/daily-news/pope-media-spread-misinterpretations-of-vatican-ii/

For now, I’ll leave everyone with this, but will look for additional information shortly.

Peace,
Ed
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Part of the reason he has not been excommunicated is that canon law does not permit excommunication for advocating for abortion, AFAIK. He can be barred from receiving Communion. But Governor Cuomo already refrains from receiving, and even a grave sinner has the right to hear Mass. So barring the new revisions to canon law being discussed expanding excommunication to pro-abortion politicians, there is little juridicially the bishops can further do.
 
Cojuanco said:
Part of the reason he has not been excommunicated is that canon law does not permit excommunication for advocating for abortion, AFAIK. He can be barred from receiving Communion. But Governor Cuomo already refrains from receiving, and even a grave sinner has the right to hear Mass. So barring the new revisions to canon law being discussed expanding excommunication to pro-abortion politicians, there is little juridicially the bishops can further do.
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With all due respect, if I am not mistaken the Governor has presented himself for Communion.

Also, I think both the Governor & VP Biden have received from Cardinal Dolan.
If I recall, I read about the above in this forum…:o
People were in shock, since everyone knows that the Governor is living with
his girlfriend…This is common knowledge in NYC. Because he has been seen taking
Holy Communion in Saint Patricks Cathedral…
Again, maybe I am wrong, and he just went up for a Blessing & people thought he
was taking Holy Communion…

Pax 🙂
 
Tigg said:
Although I understand the Cardinal’s words are only in Italian, here is one translation of part of what he said:

"In many places, they had to find compromise formulas, in which, often, the positions of
the majority are located immediately next to those of the minority, designed to delimit
them. Thus, the conciliar texts themselves have a huge potential for conflict, open the
door to a selective reception in either direction.

He also said, "“For most Catholics, the developments put in motion by the council are part of the church’s daily life. But what they are experiencing is not the great new beginning nor the springtime of the church, which were expected at that time, but rather a church that has a wintery look, and shows clear signs of crisis.”

I understand this to mean a multitude of interpretations might be possible. And no - not everyone can be a theologian, but with the attitude of dissent coming from some in high levels it is important we understand just what our faith teaches and not assent to anything it does not.
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Cardinal Kasper’s comments leave me asking, “what does this all mean for the Church?” and “What are the implications of these deliberate actions?”

Sobering indeed.
 
pnewton said:
Yes, it has been the same throughout history. That is why we have had most of our Church Councils. Only in the last few generations have the laity become so informed and educated as they have today. Greater educations does not mean greater understanding and in fact usually results in an greater understanding of one’s own ignorance.
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But to clear up misconceptions was NOT the reason why this council was called. This council was different.
 
edwest2 said:
So, what do you propose? I can fully understand your passion and desire, but what are the steps? The whole of the Church is open to us. Who do we contact? Who are the grass roots today? And if you think they are ineffective then it it is up to the laity to approach our bishop, our diocese, and go direct. Bishops and Archbishops are people too, and a few may appreciate an active dialogue and taking action. Yes, I’m talking about picking up the phone and talking or scheduling a meeting with plan in hand. Failing that, perhaps you are the one to start a facebook page to get what people need out there. According to the trade publication, Website Magazine, facebook is number one with over a billion users.

So, the ball may end up in your court. I know that the minority out there may or may not have a plan as well, but it would take a bit of research to find that out.

Best,
Ed
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😃 I love you like a brother, Ed.

Yes, I accept my challenge, and have never shrunk from it. I’m just looking for other opportunities than previous ones I have already taken. I shall come up with a concrete Plan, or Plans with B & C, to propose. Note that both I and others have often suggested using the Laity as a true Church Militant within the Church – that segment of the laity well-educated in the faith, to educate others, with approval of bishops & pastors as to content, but in a formal program. Merely talking to others informally is a random approach which won’t be terribly effective for those who need it most. (The “random” attitude is what many recent converts to Catholicism embrace, because it is a carry-over from their own traditions, many of them.)

I think this is an organizational problem. I don’t think the hierarchy or the local bishops oppose it, per se, but that they can’t imagine it in practical terms (or are so busy that they don’t have the time to imagine it). Maybe I’ll float some ideas to you in a PM and have you comment on how viable thos are.
 
Megan7 said:
With all due respect, if I am not mistaken the Governor has presented himself for Communion.

Also, I think both the Governor & VP Biden have received from Cardinal Dolan.
If I recall, I read about the above in this forum…:o
People were in shock, since everyone knows that the Governor is living with
his girlfriend…This is common knowledge in NYC. Because he has been seen taking
Holy Communion in Saint Patricks Cathedral…
Again, maybe I am wrong, and he just went up for a Blessing & people thought he
was taking Holy Communion…

Pax 🙂
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Perhaps I am mistaken, but I distinctly recall that he stated he would not approach for Communion (for living with his mistress, as you say). Perhaps he has broken that promise. Like you said, he could very well not have received appearances to the contrary.

It is true, however, that Vice President Biden received Communion on Palm Sunday - I was there, and saw it with my own two eyes.

However, the point is that all the calls for excommunication are fruitless, because it is not provided for in canon law. Until such time as the canon is revised, refusing Communion (not necessarily publically - witness Bishop Lori’s actions toward Congressman Kennedy) is the maximum penalty a bishop could give a layman who struggles with this particular sin.
 
Lucky7 said:
Cardinal Kasper’s comments leave me asking, “what does this all mean for the Church?” and “What are the implications of these deliberate actions?”

Sobering indeed.
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Simple. We encourage radical obedience. We engage those who don’t understand or can’t conceive of accepting certain parts of Church teaching. You have to understand, the Church has seen other crises in the past and survived to this day. If we are to be the salt of the earth then we are called to act, not wonder. Even helping one person is of great worth.

Expecting massive change, while possible, must include the efforts of each of us. It can’t be all or nothing or “we’re all doomed.” We don’t quit. That’s all.

Peace,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
Simple. We encourage radical obedience. We engage those who don’t understand or can’t conceive of accepting certain parts of Church teaching. You have to understand, the Church has seen other crises in the past and survived to this day. If we are to be the salt of the earth then we are called to act, not wonder. Even helping one person is of great worth.

Expecting massive change, while possible, must include the efforts of each of us. It can’t be all or nothing or “we’re all doomed.” We don’t quit. That’s all.

Peace,
Ed
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But which parts? If it is deliberately ambiguous, exactly which interpretation is the right one?

Don’t you see the problem here?

This is huge. A Cardinal is admitting that these documents are not clear…and not only not clear but deliberately unclear.

And why haven’t we heard more about this?
 
Lucky7 said:
Don’t you see the problem here?

This is huge. A Cardinal is admitting that these documents are not clear…and not only not clear but deliberately unclear.

And why haven’t we heard more about this?
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Perhaps because the Church does not see it as such a huge problem. I would say that apart from this place, I have never heard of the documents presenting a problem for anyone.
 
Mic’d Up w/ Louie Verrecchio “Vatican II and the Modern Church” (5-29-13)

youtube.com/watch?v=eaRWO19UD7I

Louie Verrecchio is an interesting guy. He has been really diving into Vatican II for a few years now. In fact, his website is titled Harvesting the Fruit of Vatican II. In the time he has been looking into the history of the council and the results therein, his position has shifted dramatically. Michael Voris conducts the interview, but it is not the bombastic Voris from his Vortex series, so I wouldn’t let that scare you if you are one who is turned off by his style in those videos. Quotes from Pope John XXIII and others are presented as to what the council was supposed to do, to allow the context to be established as to what the council actually did in comparison.
 
Lucky7 said:
But which parts? If it is deliberately ambiguous, exactly which interpretation is the right one?

Don’t you see the problem here?

This is huge. A Cardinal is admitting that these documents are not clear…and not only not clear but deliberately unclear.

And why haven’t we heard more about this?
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I sympathize! Pope Francis and our Pope Emeritus have both spoken of God’s enemies within the Church. I, like so many others wishing to be totally obedient, write the correct words in defense of the current thinking but do so with many many questions as I re-read the documents from an earlier era of popes.

That something went terribly wrong after Vat II is obvious. We have lost half the Catholics in this country alone and the loss of faith is everywhere. We can lay blame where we think it best fits. But is it too simplistic to say that this is purely a spiritual battle? I think not and believe that sacrifice and prayer are the only effective weapons at hand that will aid in the divine process of purifying the Church. It is the heart – the total man and all men (both clerics and laity alike) who need to allow the Lord to cleanse.
 
Lucky7 said:
But which parts? If it is deliberately ambiguous, exactly which interpretation is the right one?

Don’t you see the problem here?

This is huge. A Cardinal is admitting that these documents are not clear…and not only not clear but deliberately unclear.

And why haven’t we heard more about this?
Click to expand...
Obedience is rooted in listening to the person of Christ through his Church and it’s pastors, not just understanding the doctrines. Seen in this light, doctrine that is hard to understand can still be trusted out of loving obedience to the person(s) involved. That relationship is a trustworthy one.
 
jwinch2 said:
Mic’d Up w/ Louie Verrecchio “Vatican II and the Modern Church” (5-29-13)

youtube.com/watch?v=eaRWO19UD7I

Louie Verrecchio is an interesting guy. He has been really diving into Vatican II for a few years now. In fact, his website is titled Harvesting the Fruit of Vatican II. In the time he has been looking into the history of the council and the results therein, his position has shifted dramatically. Michael Voris conducts the interview, but it is not the bombastic Voris from his Vortex series, so I wouldn’t let that scare you if you are one who is turned off by his style in those videos. Quotes from Pope John XXIII and others are presented as to what the council was supposed to do, to allow the context to be established as to what the council actually did in comparison.
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Thanks Jason:thumbsup: I will watch this later on.

I heard it was a wonderful interview. And that Michael Voris is very calm, sitting during the interview. Thanks for sharing this with us.

God bless you,

Pax 🙂

Megan :highprayer:
 
jwinch2 said:
Mic’d Up w/ Louie Verrecchio “Vatican II and the Modern Church” (5-29-13)

youtube.com/watch?v=eaRWO19UD7I

Louie Verrecchio is an interesting guy. He has been really diving into Vatican II for a few years now. In fact, his website is titled Harvesting the Fruit of Vatican II. In the time he has been looking into the history of the council and the results therein, his position has shifted dramatically. Michael Voris conducts the interview, but it is not the bombastic Voris from his Vortex series, so I wouldn’t let that scare you if you are one who is turned off by his style in those videos. Quotes from Pope John XXIII and others are presented as to what the council was supposed to do, to allow the context to be established as to what the council actually did in comparison.
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The comments about why Vatican II was actually called were very interesting.

I don’t mind his Vortex clips and as you say, some do but his subscription programs are excellent. Well worth the ten bucks a month.
 
johnnyc176 said:
The comments about why Vatican II was actually called were very interesting.
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I agree. Its hard to claim that Vatican II was supposed to somehow alter the manner in which the Church understood her doctrine when the Pope who called the council specifically and unequivocally says the exact opposite.
 
jwinch2 said:
Bishop Walter Nickless discusses the implementation of Vatican II

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/05/bp-nickless-d-sioux-city-we-must-exorcize-the-spirit-of-vatican-ii/
wdtprs.com/blog/2009/10/bp-nickless-d-sioux-city-outstanding-pastoral-letter/
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Another article about the spirit of Vatican II. I am not going to link to the national whatever reporter where this story originated but to a blog that responded to it.

Sad-funny-ironic* swan song of the ‘Spirit of Vatican 2’ crowd

frmartinfox.blogspot.com/2013/06/sad-funny-ironic-swan-song-of-spirit-of.html
 
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