Vatican II Ambiguities

[jwinch2]

Another article about the spirit of Vatican II. I am not going to link to the national whatever reporter where this story originated but to a blog that responded to it.

Sad-funny-ironic* swan song of the ‘Spirit of Vatican 2’ crowd

frmartinfox.blogspot.com/2013/06/sad-funny-ironic-swan-song-of-spirit-of.html

Good article, and quite telling. I particularly enjoyed Fr. Fox’s additional comments toward the end.

*For a growing number of Catholics, Vatican II is simply another part of Catholic history, they’re not passionate for or against, it’s just “there.”

So when some try to rally the troops with, “we must save Vatican II,” more and more of the faithful aren’t buying it. And rightly so.

What’s coming, not too far in the future now, is a re-appraisal. That will be deeply painful for the “Spirit of Vatican II” crowd, as what will happen is a more sober assessment of Vatican II’s strengths and weaknesses, and a rediscovery of what Vatican II really says. This is already happening, but it hasn’t taken center stage yet.

When that happens, I think the old, V2 pro or con dialectic will be as gone as the dinosaurs. Then it will be more about a true appreciation and application of Vatican II, as well as a recognition that Vatican II isn’t the first or last word on what it means to be Catholic.*

Very well put in my view.

 

[Lucky7]

Perhaps because the Church does not see it as such a huge problem. I would say that apart from this place, I have never heard of the documents presenting a problem for anyone.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

 

[Lucky7]

Obedience is rooted in listening to the person of Christ through his Church and it’s pastors, not just understanding the doctrines. Seen in this light, doctrine that is hard to understand can still be trusted out of loving obedience to the person(s) involved. That relationship is a trustworthy one.

Which would include listening to Cardinal Kasper here, no?

 

[edwest2]

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

What? or to put it another way ----- What?

Ed

 

[Lucky7]

What? or to put it another way ----- What?

Ed

Oh was I being unclear?

Just because you don’t hear something doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

I think the fact that we can come here and hear about and learn about these issues that are typically not seen or heard of is a good thing. I prefer to hear about them rather than being left in the dark.

 

[edwest2]

I agree. Its hard to claim that Vatican II was supposed to somehow alter the manner in which the Church understood her doctrine when the Pope who called the council specifically and unequivocally says the exact opposite.

That’s right. Pope John XXIII:

ourladyswarriors.org/teach/v2open.htm

But it is to the benefit of some that confusion be maintained, even here, on multiple occasions. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Living in confusion is not good either.

Ed

 

[jwinch2]

That’s right. Pope John XXIII:

ourladyswarriors.org/teach/v2open.htm

But it is to the benefit of some that confusion be maintained, even here, on multiple occasions. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Living in confusion is not good either.

Ed

Excellent link. Thanks for that.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Perhaps because the Church does not see it as such a huge problem. I would say that apart from this place, I have never heard of the documents presenting a problem for anyone.

Probably because people either don’t mention it or have swallowed it whole. We might not be able to see “it,” but it affects us regardless.

 

[Megan7]

That’s right. Pope John XXIII:

ourladyswarriors.org/teach/v2open.htm

But it is to the benefit of some that confusion be maintained, even here, on multiple occasions. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Living in confusion is not good either.

Ed

Ed, thanks so much for this link.
God bless you Ed.

Pax,

Megan

 

[jwinch2]

Perhaps because the Church does not see it as such a huge problem. I would say that apart from this place, I have never heard of the documents presenting a problem for anyone.

How many Catholics who you interact with in face to face settings would you guess have read them? Based upon my interactions with fellow parishioners and other Catholics in RCIA, Bible study, etc. I would guess it to be very low, probably less than 10%. That’s a total ballpark number, I freely admit it, but I would be pretty surprised if it was too much higher than that. Based on my interactions with those who identify as Catholic but are not practicing, I would guess the number at much lower, around 1%. Again, total ballpark number there.

Your thoughts?

 

[Lucky7]

That’s right. Pope John XXIII:

ourladyswarriors.org/teach/v2open.htm

But it is to the benefit of some that confusion be maintained, even here, on multiple occasions. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Living in confusion is not good either.

Ed

That is a great link, thanks.

As for your last comment, I think what is most interesting about this news is that it’s not coming from a Cardinal known for his traditionalist views. I am shocked that he said it and I would love to see the full article, but can not seem to find it anywhere.

 

[jwinch2]

I am shocked that he said it and I would love to see the full article, but can not seem to find it anywhere.

The full text has been linked before on CAF via a google translation from the Italian. If you do a quick search for it, you should find it no problem.

 

[Tigg]

Obedience is rooted in listening to the person of Christ through his Church and it’s pastors, not just understanding the doctrines. Seen in this light, doctrine that is hard to understand can still be trusted out of loving obedience to the person(s) involved. That relationship is a trustworthy one.

This makes no sense to me. Many of our priests and bishops do not speak with a united voice. Which one should I listen to?

 

[Lucky7]

The full text has been linked before on CAF via a google translation from the Italian. If you do a quick search for it, you should find it no problem.

Found it.

Boy, that translation is hard to follow sometimes!

 

[Tigg]

Bishop Walter Nickless discusses the implementation of Vatican II

wdtprs.com/blog/2013/05/bp-nickless-d-sioux-city-we-must-exorcize-the-spirit-of-vatican-ii/
wdtprs.com/blog/2009/10/bp-nickless-d-sioux-city-outstanding-pastoral-letter/

Don’t 'cha just love him? He’s our former pastor from ages ago!! Haven’t read the 2nd link yet.

 

[edwest2]

Ed, thanks so much for this link.
God bless you Ed.

Pax,

Megan

You’re welcome and a you’re welcome to the previous poster.

Ed

 

[jwinch2]

Don’t 'cha just love him? He’s our former pastor from ages ago!! Haven’t read the 2nd link yet.

I only heard of him recently. Now I am hoping that he might be a candidate for the See of Fort Worth. Moving from the Diocese of Sioux City to Fort Worth would be about the right size jump for someone to make.

 

[jwinch2]

Found it.

Boy, that translation is hard to follow sometimes!

 

[Tigg]

I only heard of him recently. Now I am hoping that he might be a candidate for the See of Fort Worth. Moving from the Diocese of Sioux City to Fort Worth would be about the right size jump for someone to make.

Wherever he goes, he will be a great blessing!

 

[jwinch2]

Wherever he goes, he will be a great blessing!

I haven’t heard of him going anywhere, I am just hoping.