Vatican II and changes that followed were necesary changes in the Church

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“BTW Angeles don’t speak Latin. They communicate by power of their angelic intellect. They don’t have tongues to speak. They are not human.”

Neither are my two cats. I wonder how they communicate? 🙂

Having read some of the notes here, I am really surprised that people are so opposed to learning a new language, like it’s going to bite them bigtime. Yet they insist on having people entering their country to learn a new language. A little hypocritical or is it just plain arrogance? I mean if people feel more comfortable in communicating in Spanish at home, let them speak in Spanish. Yes, it would be of benefit for them to learn English outside the home but so would it be of benefit for us to speak some Spanish if we wish to do business with them, etc.

I for one think that vernacular is not a bad idea. However, why does it have to be at the expense of eliminating Latin altogether? Why can’t we have the Mass in both Latin and vernacular? It seems as if it isn’t a bad idea to learn the Mass in the language it was promulgated. Or would that be too time-consuming, not enough demand for it, yadda yadda yadda?
 
The *Constitution on the Liturgy *did not call for serious liturgical changes.
I know the Constitution itself is a bit reserved but there was another explanatory document that was a bit more detailed and could conceivably embrace the more serious liturgical changes. I don’t have the book in front of me now (should have photocopied it!) but its in Acta et documenta Concilio Oecumenico Vaticano II(Series II) - if you have access to it. Also see the *Acta synodalia Sacrosancti Concilii Oecumenici Vaticani II
*
The Ottavani intervention is based on the experimental Novus Ordo that was celebrated in the Sistine Chapel In 1967. It as celebrated by Father Bugnini for an audience of Bishops.
*Reform of the Liturgy *by Annibale Bugnini
Pg 348-349 “on Monday October 24 [1967] the normative Mass was experimentally celebrated in the Sistine Chapel…the secretary of the Consilium Annibale Bugnini] celebrated in Italian…it must be said flatly that the experiment **was not a success **and even that it had an effect contrary to the one intended and played a part in **the negative vote **that followed"
It does cite that on the grounds that it is substantially the same, but there are quite a few changes between the 1967 and the final NO.
 
“BTW Angeles don’t speak Latin. They communicate by power of their angelic intellect. They don’t have tongues to speak. They are not human.”

Neither are my two cats. I wonder how they communicate? 🙂

Having read some of the notes here, I am really surprised that people are so opposed to learning a new language, like it’s going to bite them bigtime. Yet they insist on having people entering their country to learn a new language. A little hypocritical or is it just plain arrogance? I mean if people feel more comfortable in communicating in Spanish at home, let them speak in Spanish. Yes, it would be of benefit for them to learn English outside the home but so would it be of benefit for us to speak some Spanish if we wish to do business with them, etc.

I for one think that vernacular is not a bad idea. However, why does it have to be at the expense of eliminating Latin altogether? Why can’t we have the Mass in both Latin and vernacular? It seems as if it isn’t a bad idea to learn the Mass in the language it was promulgated. Or would that be too time-consuming, not enough demand for it, yadda yadda yadda?
We have the option now of Latin or the Vernacular. It is up to your bishop, who probably learned Latin in school, and was trained to celebrate Mass in the Latin language.

I don’t see any rush on the part of the American bishops to force us to use Latin, or to learn it, or anything of the kind.

Truth is this is all a subtefuge, and we know it. Benedict XVI met with one of the bishops of the SSPX. He pointed out that latin has returned, and so should the SSPX people. That was a year an one half ago. They haven’t returned. And they are not going to return.

It is up to us to move on, and forget this fake argument about the Traditional Mass.

Here is an interesting article.

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=43878

Quote:
SSPX bishop rips Pope Benedict

May. 1, 2006 (CWNews.com) - A bishop of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) has harshly criticized Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) and the teachings of Vatican II, raising new questions about the prospects for reconciliation between the Vatican and the schismatic traditionalist group.

Bishop Bernard Tissier de Mallerais said that the Pontiff “has professed heresies in the past.” While stopping short of calling the Pope a heretic, he added that “he has never retracted the errors.”
Unquote

PS Cats communicate according to the limits of their intellect. Likewise angels. They have no physical bodies, and do not have tongues to speak. Angels certainly wouldn’t be speaking in a dead language such as latin - probably in greek, the language of the philosophers.

Charity towards all our posters, and remember them in our prayers.

peace
 
Please, pardon my ignorance should I display any, and I mean no offense to anyone.

I have never attended the EF Mass, and if I had the oppurtunity to do so, I most definitely would take advantage of the experience. From my personal research, it appears to be a beautiful expression of worship, and the same goes for the Divine Liturgy of the east.

That being said, I like the OF Mass. One of the reasons that I began investigating the Church was because of how respectful the Mass seemed to me. I felt like the attention was truly focused on God, not on entertainment. I wasn’t even attending the most traditional of parishes either. I think it would be unfair to say that the OF Mass hinders conversions to the Church; it aided mine!

What I don’t understand is all the emphasis some people place on the Tridentine Mass. I am aware that the “basics” of the TLM have been around for quite some time, but the codified EF Mass has been with us for what? Only 500 years or so?

Sometimes I think that we get too caught up in ourselves and in our own personal taste. God looks at the hearts of those who worship Him, not what language they speak in or whether or not the hymns are too modern. Of course, He is deserving of our utmost respect, and we must be loyal to His Church. The Church has declared that the EF and OF are legitimate. The disunity comes in where people want disunity.

I consider myself a “conservative” when it comes to faith. If the Church says so, then I’m not going to argue with it. I hate the idea of “clown masses” and liturgical dancing and all other sorts of nonsense that men have tried to bring into the Church to suit their own tastes. I would like to see the OF Mass at my parish celebrated with a bit more solemnity. I would like to see fewer EMHCs every week. I would like some more traditional and ancient hymns sung.

Perhaps my parish is more blessed than others, but the same contemporary choir director that introduces “praise and worship” music and guitars into the Mass can be seen at Eucharistic Adoration when our parish has it. I personally know some EMHCs that are very faithful Catholics. We are all guilty of passing judgement on others; I know I do it. Every week, I try to focus on God, not on my personal taste, when I attend Mass. If I see a liturgical abuse, it does bother me, and I pray about it. That’s what we should do.

Was VII a good idea? From the little research that I’ve done on it, I believe it was. Have progressives taken it too far? Yes, they most certainly have. Should the reforms of VII be implemented properly? YES! But that’s why God gave us Benedict… 😃

On a final note, no Mass setting can beat the “Gloria” in Latin. 😃
 
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Pope Paul VI called Latin the “language of the angels”
Yes, that’s true, but I don’t think he meant that they literally spoke Latin, but it was an expression of how high and lofty he considered Latin to be.
 
Yes, that’s true, but I don’t think he meant that they literally spoke Latin, but it was an expression of how high and lofty he considered Latin to be.
Latin was easy for him. He was Italian by birth. And he spoke several languages.

peace
 
i personally think the use of vernacular is a good change.

After all, the gift of tounges was a gift given to the Apostles, and they used it. They didnt go to the corners of the Earth, understand thier languages, and yet speak in thier own
Pleeeaassseee! Do the homework. I’m no scholar, but, keeping the Mass in Latin, prevents exactly what happened during the translation into English. Good heavens! The Missal has the English. You can read it and join in with the Priest. The only change needed was catechesis and placing the TRUE translation in the hands of all believers.
 
I grew up with the NO and have never been to a TLM, but I think they sould go back to TLM with the same readings. There should be a missile with the vernacular languages for those who don’t wish to take Latin. (i will be taking in High School)
 
Yes, that’s true, but I don’t think he meant that they literally spoke Latin, but it was an expression of how high and lofty he considered Latin to be.
Well, he spoke it, and most of the bishops at the Council did. Why would he then not think that the angels could.

Prayers and charity to all our posters.

peace
 
Besides all the other errors on your posts, and mis-understandings of what I said, I never said that the Mass was offered to the people. What kind of backwards theology is that?
Jesus Christ is the principal priest in every Sacrifice of the Mass, who offers to his heavenly Father His Body and Blood, which were sacrificed on the Cross. This is done through the ministry of his ordained priest.

The Mass is the same sacrifice that was offered on the Cross because the Victim is the same, and the Principal priest is the same, Jesus Christ.

Prayers and patience towards those who misquote us.

peace
 
Well, he spoke it, and most of the bishops at the Council did. Why would he then not think that the angels could.

Prayers and charity to all our posters.

peace
I think that you need to read Chomsky. Language is part of culture. Angels live outside of human culture. Therefore, angels do not use language.

In the apparitions of angels to mortals, humans have heard them in their language through divine intervention, but not because agels literally speak. They are not corporeal beings with a brain and a vocal chords, much less a language center in their head.

Just because the Church spoke Latin, does not mean that it’s the official language of Heaven. The Pope was speaking figuratively.

Otherwise there would be a serious problem with the Churches that have never used Latin, such as the Eastern Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox. Have you ever heard a Byzantine mass in Latin? There is no such thing. They uese Eastern European languages and always have, since the apostles first evangelized the East.

Prior to the birth of the Church, there were the languages of Israel. Mary heard Gabriel in her own language, which was a dialect of Hebrew and Aramaic, almost like Arabic. This is what the Nazarenes spoke.

The Hebrew of Jacob, who wrestles with the angel was not the same Hebrew of Palestine during Jesus’ time nor the Hebrew of modern Israel.

Each man and woman hears God in the language of his culture, because God can enter into the human mind. We know this from the writings of St. Teresa of Avila. She explains this phenomenon when she writes about mystical union.

JR 🙂
 
Alot of folks going to mass these days can understand every word being said, and not have a clue as to what is actually taking place on the altar. DD
Our laity are a lot more educated than they were in my day, and yet, with the Mass in English, you say they don’t know what is going on.

With that said, you want to turn the altar around, and put the language into a dead tongue? This is a total disrespect for the faithful.

The faith are offering this Sacrifice as the priest is, and you want to rob them of any intelligent way to understand this profound mystery? Just so you can have some tradition, and communion on the tongue, and altar rails, and kneeling for the reception of the hosts, and all of that??

I don’t know what to make of it. If I were you postting this post, you would say next, “Sad”.

Yea, it is sad.

Maybe, if you appreciate what I am saying, then you can appreciate what the Council tried to do.

Prayers and charity towards all our posters.

peace
 
Latin has worked in the Church for over 1600 years. Are we better than the Church now in telling everyone they don’t need to study it? Which Pope has said that Latin is absolutely forbidden? The tone of the post-Vatican II church (priests, laity) certainly seems to imply same.
 
I don’t understand why we cannot accept that a mass in Latin, a mass in the NO and a mass in the Byzantine rite and languages are all equal in dignity and meet the pastoral needs of different Catholics?

Why are we trying to impress upon one another that the TLM or the NO is superior, holier, more reverent, etc etc? What is to be gained, if the individual Christian is not moved to a greater love of God and neighbor?

We are beginning to sound like Protestants as they divided from original Lutheranism, Calvinism and Anglicanism. “My way is better than your way.”

This is not what the Church teaches. All that the Church teaches is that the TLM is part of our tradition. Motu Propio does not downplay the NO. In fact, if you attend mass at the Vatican they use the NO. The only difference is that they pray the Eucharistic prayer in Latin, but the other prayers are said in either Italian or Latin, sometimes they combine the two languages. The homily is always delivered in several languages. Depending on the celebration, the readings may be in several languages, as are the prayer of the faithful.

Also, the Pope faces the people and he distributes communion in both hand or mouth, depending on the pilgrims who are there. Some people put out their hand or open their mouth. No one fusses about it.

Nonetheless, I can’t think of a more beautiful mass than the two masses that I have attended celebrated by Popes John Paul and Benedict.

Then there are the conventual masses which most people don’t get to see. These are masses celebrated by religious orders of men, not the religious congregations. The congregations use the NO. But many of the religious orders such as Franciscans, Dominicans, Carmelites, Benedictines, Trappists, Cistercians and others, add their own charism to the liturgy.

For example, the Cistercians do not wear an alb. They wear a choir robe with a stole over it. The Capuchins do not use kneelers. They are forbidden in the rule of St. Francis. During the conventual mass they stand for the Eucharistic prayer or they kneel on the bare floor, depending on whether the floor is cold or not. For centuries the Dominican Brothers had their own rite. It was done away with by Vatican II to bring them into union with the universal Church. The did not use the Tridentine rite

In the old Tridentine rite the priest entered the church with his head covered, except if he was a member of a mendicant order or a monastic order. From 1223 until the late 1960s the Franciscans were not allowed to wear shoes at mass, not even sandals, neither were Poor Clares. The Franciscan Friars had to wear a kippah at mass, which they took off at the consecration. The Carthusians were not allowed to concelebrate mass. Each monk celebrated mass in his private oratory. Today they concelebrate on Sundays as a sign of their unity. The Capuchin-Franciscan rule forbids the distinction between those who are ordained and those who are not. They call each other Brother and they all stand around the altar, because their alter is usually the center of their choir. At mass the ordained brothers wear either a choir robe over their habit or an alb if the weather is too warm and a stole. If you go to Cardinal O’Malley’s blog, you’ll observe tha he wears the traditional Capuchin habit with the red scull cap, but never the traditional cardinal’s robes. Because he is still a Brother. He wear the traditional mitre and bishop’s vestments over his brown habit. This has been a Franciscan tradition for more than 700 years.

My point is that there are many Catholic traditions that are hundreds of years old, even longer. There are also newer traditions that arose from Vatican II. They all mean to bring people closer to God.

I never saw the Benedictines, Dominicans, Cathusians or Franciscans quibble over their conventual mass and which was more reverent. When they celebrated mass in a parish they followed the diocese and when they celebrated inside their religious house they followed their order.

Even today, certain religious orders follow their own liturgical calendars, even in parishes. For example, the Franciscans have a Franciscan ordo, a Franciscan missal and a Franciscan Lectionary. It overlaps in some places with that of the universal Church and differs at certain times of the year and on certain holy days. Many people don’t even realize when they attend a mass at a Franciscan parish that the saint of the day is often different from the saint in the Church’s universal calendar, becaue according to the Rule of St. Francis, the Franciscan saints take precedence, except in certain cases, such as universal solemnities. And in every religious parish the feast of the founder is a solemnity not a feast. The priest wears white on the Solemnity of St. Dominic, St. Bruno, St. Francis, St. Augustine and so forth, according to his religious order, while the rest of the church wears the colours prescribed in the ordo and celebrates these as memorials or feasts.

This is much more complicated than just the TLM vs the NO.

The fact is that Vatican II wanted all Christians to participate and feel lifted up at the liturgy. If it happens for you at one form or at another, then the Church has met your pastoral needs. As far as the celebration and the validity of the Eucharist, they are all valid and they celebrate the same sacrifice and faith.

We should attempt to see the positves and what unites us.

Just my two cents.

JR 🙂
 
I believe the best thing that came was the long overdue return to the verncular. The last time the Church did that was when Latin replaced Aramaic. While I appreciate the value a dead language brings to theological consitency, it hinders understanding among the majority. Thus I believe that both Latin and vernacular languages serve vital functions. Latin is the standard and the constant, but other languages are needed to communicate well. By the way, tongues in Acts was not a unified language but each person heard their own language on the day of Pentacost, yet they were amazed because of the disciples were Galilean.

I would think also a side benefit of other languages is a correction of some of the mystical aura some grant the Latin language as if it has an inherent holiness.
Amazing!! My friend it’s about what the language says and whether it conveys the truth of what the Church teaches! Compare the prayers of the NO and the TLM. What do you hear? And what does speaking in tongues have to do with the Latin Mass. The inherent holiness of the Latin is in what it says. Given the butchering of the translations that took place, the comparison might well be that of English prose and bar room banter!
 
Amazing!! My friend it’s about what the language says and whether it conveys the truth of what the Church teaches! Compare the prayers of the NO and the TLM. What do you hear? And what does speaking in tongues have to do with the Latin Mass. The inherent holiness of the Latin is in what it says. Given the butchering of the translations that took place, the comparison might well be that of English prose and bar room banter!
Silver, just a question, with no disrespect intended.

Would you say that the Byzantine liturgy does not convey the same truths or that their languages have no inherent holiness?

Keep in mind, they have never used Latin. If I understand you correctly, is Latin the only language than can convey the truth of the paschal mystery that we celebrate in the liturgy?

If so, what do we say to the Eastern Rites or to the Orthodox Church? Should they adopt Latin? Bear in mind, that they also underwent liturgical renewal several times over the last 2000 years.

JR 🙂
 
Given the butchering of the translations that took place, the comparison might well be that of English prose and bar room banter!
I don’t quite understand. What 'butchering of the translations that took place"?

Maybe you could give us some examples - giving us the original, and the resulting translation.

Some of us have facility in language and translation, and we could appreciate what you are talking about.

That would be great and move the conversation forward for me.

Prayers and charity to all who post here.

peace
 
Pleeeaassseee! Do the homework. I’m no scholar, but, keeping the Mass in Latin, prevents exactly what happened during the translation into English. Good heavens! The Missal has the English.
Gee, you do not have to attack someone else’s opinion to make your own. I agree that the change to the vernacular has many benefits. Putting a translation for the faithful to read is not the same as using the vernacular.
 
Amazing!! My friend it’s about what the language says and whether it conveys the truth of what the Church teaches! Compare the prayers of the NO and the TLM. What do you hear? And what does speaking in tongues have to do with the Latin Mass.
You would need to read the whole thread to understand the context of tongues, or at least the first day or two of this thread.

I pointed out what I believe to be the advantages of both the vernacular and having Latin as a primary language. I will not engage in a form of Latin-olatry and elevate this language to some supernatural state because the Church uses it. Latin has also been used in pagan worship before Christ came on the scene. Latin is used in Black Masses. Latin was the language of those who committed deicide and was the language of the Collesium where Christians were torn to bits by wild beasts.

As a dead language is has unique value. As the language of the Church it has a special place of honor. But at the end of the day, it is still just a language.
 
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