Vatican II and Mother Teresa

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convert31894

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I’ve recently decided to become Catholic after a life of Protestantism and apostacy. However, there are some extreme traditionalists who claim that Vatican II is invalid and that no saint would have accepted it. My answer to that is Mother Teresa? She lived before and after the changes within the Church and decided to remain Catholic instead of leaving. I understand that she isn’t oficially canonized but she’s still a Blessed and is most likely (99.999999999 %) in heaven. What do extreme traditionalists have to say to that? It’s been really difficult for me because many extreme traditionalist websites have cause immense spiritual confusion within me. I just want to know that God’s leading me to his true church. I’m ready to quit being lost and ready to be found.

God Bless,

Zach
 
convert31894 said:
I’ve recently decided to become Catholic after a life of Protestantism and apostacy. However, there are some extreme traditionalists who claim that Vatican II is invalid and that no saint would have accepted it. My answer to that is Mother Teresa? She lived before and after the changes within the Church and decided to remain Catholic instead of leaving. I understand that she isn’t oficially canonized but she’s still a Blessed and is most likely (99.999999999 %) in heaven. What do extreme traditionalists have to say to that? It’s been really difficult for me because many extreme traditionalist websites have cause immense spiritual confusion within me. I just want to know that God’s leading me to his true church. I’m ready to quit being lost and ready to be found.

God Bless,

Zach
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Why would you visit those particular websites if they cause spiritual confusion within you. Just stay away from them.

Problem solved.👍
 
Mike30 said:
Why would you visit those particular websites if they cause spiritual confusion within you. Just stay away from them.

Problem solved.👍
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I wish it was that easy to do. There’s something about those websites that make you think that they could be true and that you’ve been deceived this whole time. I just want to be saved in the end, so I’m scrupulously careful about finding the right Catholic church. Please pray for me. I need God’s guidance more than ever.
 
convert31894 said:
I wish it was that easy to do. There’s something about those websites that make you think that they could be true and that you’ve been deceived this whole time. I just want to be saved in the end, so I’m scrupulously careful about finding the right Catholic church. Please pray for me. I need God’s guidance more than ever.
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Well, I can tell you there is nothing in the extreme sites that you are speaking of that comes close to being believable unless you want in some way to believe what the are saying.

As I say, just stay away!
 
Vatican II happened, it was an Ecumenical Council of the Church, there is no doubt about that. The only legitimate debate is: Just how much authority do the documents command, since both of the Popes who reigned during Vatican II explained that the Council would not define any new doctrine? and, Have the documents been properly understood and implemented?

Whether we can give a definitive answer to these questions or not is in no way connected to the fact that we are called to live a holy life as faithful Catholics. The Church has survived much more difficult times before, and she will undoubtedly survive this, because Christ gave His promise to Peter.

So yes, Blessed Mother Theresa is very likely in heaven today, but this is neither because of nor in spite of Vatican II, which did not actually change the Catholic Faith.
 
Hi Zach, welcome to the family!

Why waste your time on extreme traditionalist websites? There are many great, faith-building books waiting to be read, such as the Bible, the catechism, the lives of the saints, and spiritual books like Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales. Do you know how to pray the rosary? These will help build up your faith. You will also find good people on here who will help build your faith as well.

AO
 
convert31894 said:
I wish it was that easy to do. There’s something about those websites that make you think that they could be true and that you’ve been deceived this whole time. I just want to be saved in the end, so I’m scrupulously careful about finding the right Catholic church. Please pray for me. I need God’s guidance more than ever.
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I understand your stress, I used to have this about those groups but now don’t ordinarily (except from time to time).

Their arguments can seem convincing at first because it can often be hard to “disprove” them…but I think the key to understanding they are false is that God founded the Church. He did not give individuals constant judging power over the Church. God founded the Church on the rock of Peter. We just need to trust in Christ when he said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church.

That said, stay away from those sites. They can only do harm to your spiritual life. Keep praying God will lead you in the right path!
 
Zach,

The problem with the fundamentalist point of view is that they look at our faith as “sola scriptora” or “Scripture only” and not as Christ would. They will quote scripture back and forth to prove or disprove a point but do not look at the fact that scripture wasn’t even written until many years after the death of Christ and many parts of the New Testament were not even written by the direct apostles of Christ. Ex: the letters of Paul/Saul. I am in no way discrediting scripture, but we have to look at the facts that the early apostles were the ones that passed down the teachings of Christ and Christ Himself gave Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven” and said to Him “Upon this rock I will build my Church and even the gates of hell will not prevail against my Church.”

All of the Protestant churches were founded by men who defied the authority Christ gave the Catholic Church, and catholic simply means universal. They may have seemed noble in fighting against flaws in the Catholic Church, which are bound to arise since its members are human and can falter and fall, but they should not have separated themselves from the teaching authority of the Chair of St. Peter. The Holy Father and all Bishops are simply called to teach and safeguard the sacred teachings, Scripture and Tradition, of Christ as originally given by Him from God the Father in union with the Holy Spirit.

A great book to read if you are looking for solid teaching on the Church that will help you find your home and ground you against fundamentalism is a book called “The Lamb’s Supper” by Dr. Scott Hann. This man used to belong to a Protestant church and later converted to Catholicism after attending a Mass and sitting in the back to absorb all that was going on. This book is based of the book of Revelation in scripture and describes how this book actually mirrors the Mass.

The Mass is so important because it is the union of the Old Testament with the New. Christ is spoken of in the Old Testament as the messiah to come and in the New Testament He gives the reason why He came. “I came to bear witness to the Truth” “I am the way the truth and the life” “Anyone who comes to me will have the light of life.” Isn’t that beautiful? Need purpose in your life? Here it is!! To have the light of life… How we should live and why we should live this way. It’s simple really… love. Self giving love each day, day by day, through the good and bad. Christ’s ultimate sacrifice of love by dying on the Cross for our Sins in witness to the truth of love, the unblemished lamb, is re- presented (made present) at the Mass during the Eucharistic consecration and the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ Jesus our Lord, Savior, and King. This can be a hard teaching but Christ Himself said “He who does not eat my flesh and drink my blood has no life in Him” and “This is my body… this is my blood… do this in remembrance of me”. Many even stopped following Him after He taught about the first part; Jesus in the flesh, not even simply His Church.

You are Home in the Catholic Church because this is where Christ made His home on earth. In the womb of Mary, under St. Joseph’s roof, in the hearts of the disciples, and now within every tabernacle in a Catholic church or chapel, and the hearts of those who accept Him as their savior and lover of their souls.

Keep searching for Truth and God will lead you!! I would also recommend along with my fellow Catholics not to delve too deep into the fundamentalist websites because it can be very spiritually clouding. It might sound biased because I am Catholic but let Christ lead you in this matter. If you feel compelled to read them, at least keep Christ close with you while you do and ask for His guidance and wisdom, but I would recommend first to look at some other teachings that will help organize your mind so that your heart can think. If that makes sense.

I would recommend these to get you started and I’ll stay with one author to keep it simple:
All by Scott Hann:

#1 Reasons to Believe
#2 The Lambs Supper
#3 A Father Who Keeps His Promises

After these I would then delve into Scripture and the Catechism of the Catholic Church which will bring you closer to Christ and His Church.

👍 You are in my prayers!!! 😃

SteubieGirl
 
convert31894 said:
I’ve recently decided to become Catholic after a life of Protestantism and apostacy. However, there are some extreme traditionalists who claim that Vatican II is invalid and that no saint would have accepted it. My answer to that is Mother Teresa? She lived before and after the changes within the Church and decided to remain Catholic instead of leaving. I understand that she isn’t oficially canonized but she’s still a Blessed and is most likely (99.999999999 %) in heaven. What do extreme traditionalists have to say to that? It’s been really difficult for me because many extreme traditionalist websites have cause immense spiritual confusion within me. I just want to know that God’s leading me to his true church. I’m ready to quit being lost and ready to be found.

God Bless,

Zach
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Let’s start with something simple. Christ told Peter that He was building his church upon the Rock ( a play on the name He gave to Peter) and said further that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

Ever since then, the Church has held that the Holy Spirit protects the Church from error when the Church teaches about faith or morals.

Teaching about faith or morals may be done by defining doctrine; but that is most certainly not the sum total of all the teaching.

We use the word Magisterium for the teaching authority of the Pope, and of the pope and the bishops when they are united with him.

The documents of Vatican 2 don’t have to doctrinal to be part of the Magisterial act of the the Church. Nothing in the Gospels and nothing in history supports that position.

Those who reject Vatican 2, and those who reject the popes involved with it and those who have come since it (popes, that is) are denying that the Holy Spirit protects the Church when it teaches (also known as exercising it’s Magisterial authority); and in doing that they reject the Gospels and Christ, since it was Christ who made that promise.

You seem to have a conspiratorial bent to you, in that you seem attracted to those who whisper (or shout) of plots and nefarious activities.

There is a conspiracy afoot - and it is to deny Vatican 2, the popes, and by doing so, to deny Christ.

You might consider that the next time you are tempted to go looking at those sites. Evil is always attractive - otherwise we would never be drawn to it. And who is it that is the source of evil, and of temptation?

Please note: I do not suggest that those who take the path of denial intend to deny Christ; I cannot speak to their inner desires or intents. But the wheels have definitely fallen off their train, and it is no longer on the tracks.
 
Welcome convert31894. I compliment you on an honest search. Among traditionalists I believe there are those who reject Vatican II, and they risk breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church if they haven’t already. Then, there are those who are traditionalist, and yet still accept Vatican II. I could imagine someone can stick to certain Traditionalist practices without condemning those who practice otherwise. I think I could relish the chance to experience the solemnity of a Latin traditional mass.
 
P.S. Also on the subject of Second Vatican II. All that counsel was, was a revival and refreshing of what the Church has always taught. They simply looked at matters that were pertinent to the present and brought forth the teachings of the Church to strengthen the people in their faith. The changes that were brought forth were only meant to strengthen the faith of the people. A spring cleaning if you will to make clear old teachings for present day issues and modernize where there was a need. For example changing the Mass from Latin to Vernacular (the common language).

If anyone has more knowledge on this subject, please embellish!!

Here is a great website to visit on the topic:
vatican2voice.org/

And here are the actual documents:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/
 
SteubieGirl said:
For example changing the Mass from Latin to Vernacular (the common language).
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That’s not exactly accurate. Sacrosanctum Concilium 36 specifically states that “use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

Also, remembering that V2 did not actually change anything in the Faith, it could not possibly have changed the Mass to the vernacular, as that would oppose the Ecumenical Council of Trent, Session XXII:
CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.
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But, thankfully Vatican II did not change the Mass to the vulgar tongue!
 
I’m a little confused. So the Mass may be celebrated in other languages, Latin, German, Italian, etc., without violating Catholic teaching, and in accordance with Vatican II, correct? Are there (strong) different positions against this?
 
convert31894 said:
I wish it was that easy to do.** There’s something about those websites that make you think that they could be true and that you’ve been deceived this whole time.** I just want to be saved in the end, so I’m scrupulously careful about finding the right Catholic church. Please pray for me. I need God’s guidance more than ever.
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Standard tactic of conspiracy theorists. As others have said, stay away from those websites, unless you only use them for comic relief…

There is only one “right” Catholic Church. Well, no, actually there are 23, but all in communion with Rome, of which the Roman Catholic Church is one. Any “church” claiming that Vatican II was heresy or wrong or that there hasn’t been a valid pope since whomever, is not in communion.

If the post-Vatican II Church is not the “correct” Catholic Church then the promise that Jesus made to Peter and the Authority he gave Him when He symbolically handed Peter the Keys to Authority, would be bogus Bible verses. And if these verses are bogus then the entire Bible can’t be taken seriously, and then our church and indeed our faith would rest on shifting sands instead of the rock Jesus founded it on.

Meditate on that for a while, when you are tempted by sedevacantist websites.
 
convert31894 said:
I’ve recently decided to become Catholic after a life of Protestantism and apostacy. However, there are some extreme traditionalists who claim that Vatican II is invalid and that no saint would have accepted it. My answer to that is Mother Teresa? She lived before and after the changes within the Church and decided to remain Catholic instead of leaving. I understand that she isn’t oficially canonized but she’s still a Blessed and is most likely (99.999999999 %) in heaven. What do extreme traditionalists have to say to that? It’s been really difficult for me because many extreme traditionalist websites have cause immense spiritual confusion within me. I just want to know that God’s leading me to his true church. I’m ready to quit being lost and ready to be found.

God Bless,

Zach
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Hi Zach, don’t just look to Mother Teresa - what about John Paul II. He’s as much of a saint if ever there was one, and he was deeply involved in Vatican II.

To be honest, the only reason for thinking Vatican II is invalid is because you don’t like the way it was articulated. Pre-Trentians could have said the same thing about the Council of Trent, or pre-Nicaeans about the Council of Nicaea.

It’s a historical fact that after every major Church Council there is a group of Christians who are disaffected by what occurred during the Council and break away. Sadly, we still see this today.
 
Pilosopo said:
I’m a little confused. So the Mass may be celebrated in other languages, Latin, German, Italian, etc., without violating Catholic teaching, and in accordance with Vatican II, correct? Are there (strong) different positions against this?
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When using penalties (such as an anathama) the Church has traditionally been as “friendly” to the person as possible. So, as long as we accept that the Mass is not to be celebrated in the vernacular all the time, we do not incur the anathama of Trent. And indeed, that is what Vatican II actually said: Mass should be preserved in Latin for the Latin Rites (SC 36). Debate is possible regarding whether it is an abuse to have Mass in the vernacular as the norm, but not in this thread, which is not about the language of the liturgy. I only mentioned it to correct an imprecise statement.
 
convert31894 said:
It’s been really difficult for me because many extreme traditionalist websites have cause immense spiritual confusion within me. I just want to know that God’s leading me to his true church. I’m ready to quit being lost and ready to be found.

God Bless,

Zach
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If these sites are disturbing your peace, and your faith in the Catholic Church, why do you go to them? Stay away, and pray for the people who run them, that they will return to the Church.
Yes, you CAN stay away from them. They do not control your keyboard. 😉
 
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