Vatican II and the Eastern Catholic Churches - How Was Life Different For Eastern Catholics Before Vatican II?

[ByzCathCantor]

Sure there were many problems in those happy days. But at the level of church life - and church life as our life. It was a golden time. I hope that we can keep that good of that time in mind as we look to prepare our future.

A very good post - thanks!

I do think some of the remaining “old timers”, if you will (including many I know who still live and worship at the Passaic Cathedral and in “neighboring” parishes), would agree that today’s Ruthenian Church is different than yesterday’s, for all the reasons you mentioned and then some. Even at the level of church life, as you put it, our communities are not as local and close knit as they used to be. The days of celebrated marriages between children of the old parish families, with the great choirs showing up in full force, are long gone. Each time I go to a funeral of one of the great cantors / choir directors of this past era (most recently, +George Kmeck of Jersey City fame), I am reminded that there was indeed such an age, and it is now past.

All that remains is whether we are clever enough to create a new golden age for the next generation.

 

[TrueLight]

Are any of the “great choirs” on YouTube?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Are any of the “great choirs” on YouTube?

Ugh! I had a nice, complete response for you, and then my browser crashed!

Try the Prostopinije channel on YouTube, This is the semi-professional choir of our Trenton, NJ parish. They peform many of the works and arrangements that were commonplace in the repertoires of our old, great choirs.

Also, Fr. Tom Loya’s parish has some excellent standing choirs (yes, plural). They published a CD entitled Theosis, which you can enjoy for free online on their website (click here for their choir page and follow further link).

You can hear some samples of the great choir of the Holy Ghost Byzantine Catholic Church (Philadelphia, PA), under the direction of +Sir Knight Daniel J. Kavka, Sr. of blessed memory, by clicking on a number of the recordings listed here.

 

[dvdjs]

The days of celebrated marriages between children of the old parish families, …

In the old days it was standard; by my time it seemed oddly insular and perhaps nearly incestuous since almost everyone even in my larrge parish was at least distantly related. By the later 80’s such a wedding - all Byzantine as my mother noted as a cousin’s wedding in the Rox- was a special celebration.

All that remains is whether we are clever enough to create a new golden age for the next generation.

Indeed. And even now for ourselves. We have greater possibilities to do it than ever before.

 

[TrueLight]

Ugh! I had a nice, complete response for you, and then my browser crashed!

Try the Prostopinije channel on YouTube, This is the semi-professional choir of our Trenton, NJ parish. They peform many of the works and arrangements that were commonplace in the repertoires of our old, great choirs.

Nice. Byz are you singing in any of these?

Also, Fr. Tom Loya’s parish has some excellent standing choirs (yes, plural). They published a CD entitled Theosis, which you can enjoy for free online on their website (click here for their choir page and follow further link).

I just listened to “By the Waters of Babylon”. It’s beautiful. Thanks for all the links!

I think I’m going to have to find a gig that allows me to sing in one of these choirs at least once!

 

[dvdjs]

U
Try the Prostopinije channel on YouTube, This is the semi-professional choir of our Trenton, NJ parish. They peform many of the works and arrangements that were commonplace in the repertoires of our old, great choirs.

As much as I love these classics, more and more I like this type: clean, simple, and with a sonority that is, well, familiar.
youtube.com/watch?v=vTTrW3I4Y_s&feature=PlayList&p=F3E108BC2ACF1A64&playnext_from=PL&index=15

Or congregational singing like this:
youtube.com/watch?v=PNIrnHhwR74
Simple video by a visiting cantor. Since that video was made, one new priest and two seminarians from that group.

 

[dvdjs]

A few more:
youtube.com/watch?v=Sp1yZjGgbd8&feature=relmfu
youtube.com/watch?v=zFI8NULHhHU
youtube.com/watch?v=1TBKctibpk0&feature=related

 

[ByzCathCantor]

As much as I love these classics, more and more I like this type: clean, simple, and with a sonority that is, well, familiar.

You just can’t beat Hanka Servicka! She’s wonderful!

I often listen to the two Marian hymns at the beginning of this video (solo).

Can you not feel the love for our Blessed Mother?

And check out this young Rusyn wonder: Ludmila Kurys (Rusyn folk songs)

 

[ByzCathCantor]

… and you have to love a shared tradition that gives you this gem: youtube.com/watch?v=issrFieSyt0&feature=plcp

 

[dvdjs]

Great links, thanks.
Have you heard this folk song?
youtube.com/watch?v=Rk7wzfysSfU

Тече вода, тече, по каменю черька. Шо мене мамочко 2р. в чужым світї чека?
Не раз Вы, мамочко, про мене плакали Покы-м сте ня мамко 2р. дЇвко выховали
Вы мені,мамочко,свадьбу выстроЇли ани не збачіла-м, 2р. як сте постарїли
Тепер я, мамочко, буду ся старати бы єм Вас до смертї 2р. могла доховати

 

[ByzCathCantor]

A few more:
youtube.com/watch?v=Sp1yZjGgbd8&feature=relmfu

Gabe Zihal’s proteges (he’s one of the last great ones standing, God bless him)! Notice the young lady in the group?

youtube.com/watch?v=zFI8NULHhHU

I’ll know we are forever lost if they can’t chant in McKees Rock!

BTW - I don’t think you’ll find this “illegal” version of the Cherubikon in the pew book (inside joke among Ruthenians)

youtube.com/watch?v=1TBKctibpk0&feature=related

And they still have some great groups in the Eparchy of Parma. They manage to do what we all must do - get the youngsters involved early. Everything in this video is “spot on”, as usual in Parma. From my few years in metro-Detroit, I will tell you that these folks stick together, and the cantors / choir directors all support each other very well.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Nice. Byz are you singing in any of these?

I wish!

I did have the privilege of singing with the Holy Ghost - Philadelphia choir on one glorious occasion.

I just listened to “By the Waters of Babylon”. It’s beautiful.

Not surprised you of all focused on that hymn. It is normally reserved for the weeks leading up to Great Lent. The verses reflect on the captivity in Babylon.

Thanks for all the links!

My pleasure - I owe you a couple for all the great works of the Latin Church you’ve surfaced of late!

 

[TrueLight]

My pleasure - I owe you a couple for all the great works of the Latin Church you’ve surfaced of late!

I fell asleep with Theosis playing in the background. I didn’t mean to fall asleep. The music was so soothing, I was carried away to blissful slumber.

 

[TrueLight]

As much as I love these classics, more and more I like this type: clean, simple, and with a sonority that is, well, familiar.
youtube.com/watch?v=vTTrW3I4Y_s&feature=PlayList&p=F3E108BC2ACF1A64&playnext_from=PL&index=15

Or congregational singing like this:
youtube.com/watch?v=PNIrnHhwR74
Simple video by a visiting cantor. Since that video was made, one new priest and two seminarians from that group.

See, I prefer the other type. This type seems more ethnic to me - something which may be “familiar” to someone of that culture, but not necessarily to me. . Which brings me to a question.

How much of the congregational singing in these videos is part of the liturgy of St John Chrysostom and how much of it is based on let’s say “Carpathian” music of more recent times?

 

[ByzCathCantor]

See, I prefer the other type. This type seems more ethnic to me - something which may be “familiar” to someone of that culture, but not necessarily to me. . Which brings me to a question.

How much of the congregational singing in these videos is part of the liturgy of St John Chrysostom and how much of it is based on let’s say “Carpathian” music of more recent times?

Funny you say that, as I think even my fellow congregants would likely say that the first is more “ethnic” in a sense. While one might hear such a paraliturgical hymn either before or after Divine Liturgy, it might be more common and expected to hear this particular type of hymn on a pilgrimage (sung by twenty or more women in baboushkas ).

Mostlly all of the congregational singing heard is part of or closely associated with the celebration of the Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom, and to a slightly more limited extent, of St. Basil the Great). I’m not sure what you mean by “more recent”, but all of it is clearly evident of the oral tradition of our treasured Prostopinije (Plain Chant of Carpatho-Rus / the Ruthenians).

 

[TrueLight]

Funny you say that, as I think even my fellow congregants would likely say that the first is more “ethnic” in a sense. While one might hear such a paraliturgical hymn either before or after Divine Liturgy, it might be more common and expected to hear this particular type of hymn on a pilgrimage (sung by twenty or more women in baboushkas ).

Mostlly all of the congregational singing heard is part of or closely associated with the celebration of the Divine Liturgy (of St. John Chrysostom, and to a slightly more limited extent, of St. Basil the Great). I’m not sure what you mean by “more recent”, but all of it is clearly evident of the oral tradition of our treasured Prostopinije (Plain Chant of Carpatho-Rus / the Ruthenians).

Recent as in 100-200 years opposed to whatever the age of the DL is.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Recent as in 100-200 years opposed to whatever the age of the DL is.

Well, the DL is older than our own Ruthenian tradition, which includes our chant tradition.

I would note that the study of chant and chant families can get complicated, but I would say that the key elements of our chant (Prostopinije) have been relatively stable for a few hundred years.

That said, there have been paraliturgical hymns added to our tradition that are more recent, but again, these are not used in the Divine Liturgy.

This has been fun , but we should probably get this thread back on track …

To try to tie the two together (VII and chant) in transition, here is a recording of excerpts of the Divine Liturgy celebrated in Rome during Vatican II, on the Feast of St. Nicholas, December 6, 1965: youtube.com/watch?v=AaLfJ0gbwVk

 

[TrueLight]

This has been fun , but we should probably get this thread back on track …

 

[Hesychios]

Also, Fr. Tom Loya’s parish has some excellent standing choirs (yes, plural). They published a CD entitled Theosis, which you can enjoy for free online on their website (click here for their choir page and follow further link).

I was in those choirs at one time. The full choir and the men’s choir plus a third which was facetiously called the ‘Cossack’ choir (although I was not very involved in the third).

I never cantored. We had a rotation of at least six men for that and it wasn’t something I wanted to get involved with.

 

[dvdjs]

How much of the congregational singing in these videos is part of the liturgy of St John Chrysostom and how much of it is based on let’s say “Carpathian” music of more recent times?

The question is a little confusing. But I think the answer is that most of the church music that I linked is from the DL (apart from the two paraliturgical hymns), and, I suspect that all is Carpathian music of more recent times.

Carpathian prostopinije is used for the DL and for other services. Over the years - really going back to the first millenium, these chants have continuously evolved. There is a bit of scholarship on this evolution, but only a bit (someday I want to use bioinformatics methods to study this evolution.)

From the styles you could say that the prokimenon and irmoi tones are ancient, and the tones for the troparia, kontakia, and stichera have components that are several centuries old. The most widely used hymns settings, whether they are hymns from the liturgy or not, are more recent and continually under development.

The choir music in the links of BCC also cover a range of times from 18th through 20th centuries.