Vatican II Bishop/Cardinal & Novus Ordo?

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I have often heard a certain Bishop or Cardinal referred to as trying to make the Novus Ordo so similar to a Methodist service that a Methodist could not tell the difference.

Does anyone have a reference for the general idea that there was an intention by some at the 2nd Vatican Council to remove many of the visible differences, both in the liturgy itself, and in the church structure also, between the Catholic Mass and the services of our Protestant brethren?

I can’t seem to find a good quote or reference to this anywhere.

Thanks,

Gene
 
😃 This is going to be an interesting thread.

Perhaps you are thinking of the (mis)quote attributed to Annibale Bugnini which runs:
We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants
which is actually not accurate. I have posted the entire article on my blog here

People will also point to 6 Protestant observers to say that the liturgy was Protestant-ized. However, I seriously doubt that many know what they proposed - the few instances which are known do not bear out the claim.

And the second thing that people will point to is the removal of several prayers, particularly those of sacrificial mention at the Offertory and the end of the Mass. IMHO, they were not removed because of Protestant-izing, but because of a desire to restore a “purer” form of the Roman liturgy.

This is not to say that there weren’t people who desired an ecumenical, or ecumenical friendly style Mass. Take Bishop Duschak who caused a sensation by declaring his wish for such at the Council itself. However, they were not in a sizeable number on the Concilium itself, and quite a few of the consultors of the Concilium were not exactly friendly to the idea, even if they did not mind toning down certain anti-ecumenical phrases. Even among those who did, many not consider it opportune, preferring to keep the ecumenical services to the “bible vigils” that were common in the 60’s.
 
I have often heard a certain Bishop or Cardinal referred to as trying to make the Novus Ordo so similar to a Methodist service that a Methodist could not tell the difference.

Does anyone have a reference for the general idea that there was an intention by some at the 2nd Vatican Council to remove many of the visible differences, both in the liturgy itself, and in the church structure also, between the Catholic Mass and the services of our Protestant brethren?

I can’t seem to find a good quote or reference to this anywhere.

Thanks,

Gene
See here,

traditioninaction.org/religious/m002rpMisunderstandingMass.htm

It was Archbishop Bugnini.

God Bless
 
Perhaps you are thinking of the (mis)quote attributed to Annibale Bugnini…
Thank you for the Italian original! This is excellent!

I took the Italian text from your Blog and ran it through Google Translate. Here is the “rough” translation.

It is interesting to me that the oft quoted phrase is really more of Bugnini’s lament over the loss of the 7th prayer, for example, as opposed to some sort of “call to action” for the implementation of the Novus Ordo. I doubt I could read that into it even from the most cynical point of view.

Thank you very much!

Here is the translation:

FOR THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE CONSTITUTION LITURGICA

THE VARIATIONES some texts of Holy Week

It 'came out, in typical edition, announced brochure Variationes in Ordinem Hebdomadae sanctae inducendae (Libreria. Vaticana, 8 ̊, pp. 24).

The Variationes refer to Missa chrismatis, the blessing of oils, some of Orationes sollemnes Friday.

The Missa chrismatis for the consecration of oils was born as the Mass of Holy Thursday morning in churches cathedrals, was in force when the Mass of the Lord’s Supper, its natural place in vespertine hours. When this was transferred in the morning, the Missa chrismatis disappeared and the consecration of oil was inserted into the Mass of Holy Thursday, which saw the form of the Mass of the Lord’s Supper. Restituita this, in 1955, at vespertine, it was necessary to reconstruct the form of the Mass chrismatis.

Two concepts then dominated the consecration of oils and the day after the sacred Triduum, in which it takes place.

Of the texts adopted in 1955 and passed in the Roman Missal, some, like prayers, are classics, and best workmanship, others less happy. The overall scheme was rather criticised by liturgists. The rebuked is a certain conceptual poverty: for example, three texts (Epistle, Gospel and Communio) charge on the sick insist that the hierarchy is in last place, and whose blessing, for centuries, was not even reserved for the bishop, but left the simple priest, who fulfilled the time to time, as needed.

A review of the key, then, was the subject of many desires.

But more recently, a further conceptual development took greater prominence. First of all, " 'the presence ritual, or almost ritual, much of the diocesan clergy around the bishop, the church cathedral." While, in fact, in the afternoon the clergy is fully involved in parish churches for the Mass of the Lord’s Supper with his parish family, in the morning the only Mass in the cathedral may be the day the institution of the priesthood, a veritable feast of priests. And the Missa chrismatis would plastically and with great effectiveness the most pure image of the bishop, described. 41 of the Constitution: The Bishop must be regarded as the high priest of his flock: he comes and depends in some way the lives of his faithful in Christ. So everyone must give greater importance to the liturgical life of the diocese that takes place around the Bishop, mainly in the Cathedral: convinced that there is a special manifestation of the Church in full and active participation of the entire holy people of God under the same celebrations liturgical, especially in the same Eucharist, the same prayer, the same altar where the presiding bishop surrounded by his priests and ministers.

The second important element for the Thursday before Easter this year will be concelebrated the Eucharist, which can freely take place in every Cathedral, according to the rite that, after lengthy preparation and ten months of experiment, on the very day the institution of SS. Eucharist and the priesthood will begin his journey in bright prasssi ordinary liturgical of the Church.

For these reasons from different parties, even by persons authoritative and worth every respect, was expressed the desire that the texts of Missa chrismatis were reviewed and took account of three reasons that dominate the rite: (1) consecration of the oils ( 2) introduction to the sacred Triduum (3) priestly celebration of all the clergy around the Bishop in the Church Cathedral.

The first two elements are sufficiently described in the texts of the Mass today, the reason most directly priestly was emphasized in the readings. The epistle (Isaiah 61: 1-4, 6, 8-9) is an exaltation of the Messiah (Spiritus Christi super me), which rebuilds and transforms the holy city, enriched by the gifts with her and establishes a pact ever. The Gospel (Luke 4: 16-21) echoes the reason prophetic and it shows the avveramento in Christ. The meaning of Easter two pericopi and clear application to priestly mission traspaiono from each line.

The other texts of the Mass remained unchanged, except the Offertorio, where as a song that accompanies the procession was the hymn “O Redemptor, sume Carmen” on the ground that tell below; while the verse offertoriale “Diligis iustitiam” rose to Communio in the text slightly changed because corresponded to that of Graduale, where he found with his melody in the Municipality of Mass Pro nec Virgine nec Martyre.

The ancient Communio Praedicabant Apostles who depended on the Gospel (Mark 6: 7-13) disappears, with the evangelical pericope.

A new element and not a little relief is the series of melodiae simplices proposals “ad libitum” for Introito, Gradual, and the Communio: antiphons (ritornelli) are taken from the psalm. The Gregorian melodies are simple and easily apprendibili. In this way the whole assembly could take part in singing, intercalando antiphon to the verses of the psalm, performed by singers.

We said that the Missa chrismatis must become a party priestly: this is an element that will facilitate its implementation. The proposed texts are all a plot on the priesthood of Christ, the ministers of God, the faithful, the people who Iahvé has chosen for his legacy.

The blessing of oils

With the power to concelebrate the Missa chrismatis it seemed appropriate, if not necessary, rather simplify the blessing of oils, without prejudice to the final reform, which will follow the general revision of the Pontifical Roman.

According to the adjustments made hours, the ritual will take place this way: in the presbytery is preparing a table with white tablecloth and bring the bulbs of oils. At the time it will be placed in the most appropriate, because the faithful can easily see and follow the ritual.

The ceremony is convenient to take part Vicars forane of the various regions of the diocese or at least some priests who represent different Vicariates.

The preparation of the Bishop, concelebrants and ministers, as well as deacons and subdeacons, taking part in the sacred function, entry into the church and other ceremonies until all’offertorio, held as is stated in the rite of concelebration .

After ’ “oratio fidelium,” seven deacons and seven sub with other ministers needed to be in the sacristy to take the bulbs of oils, leading to the altar along with oblate for Sacrifico. During the procession through the church choir and people in place dell’antifona offertoriale sing the anthem “O Redemptor.”

At the altar, the deacon, who leads the oil for the sacred Chrism submit it to Bishop saying: “Oil for the sacred Chrism” and then goes to lay the capsule on the table prepared.

Similarly are the other deacon and subdeacon presenting the Bishop ampoules for oil of catechumens and the sick. Finally the ministers are with the oblate for the Sacrifice.

The Mass continues regularly as in the rite of concelebration. Before “For quem haec omnia”, the bishop blesses the oil of the sick, whose capsule is brought to the altar by a subdeacon.

After the Communion, the canteen of the oil is in the midst of the presbytery. The Bishop there goes addressed the people around you have priests, deacons and subdeacons.

Before it blesses the balm, which is mixed with a little oil, and says the prayer “Dominum Deum nostrum” Then the Bishop breathes once sull’ampolla, sings the preface, shuffling the balm in the sacred Chrism, and inchinandosi the salutes, saying Ave, Chrisma sanctum.

The same form, remaining in place, priests concelebrating; finally the same greeting is sung by the whole assembly.

We shall, therefore, to the blessing of the catechumens, in a manner almost identical.

Finally, said postcommunio, back in the sacristy procession singing a few verses dell’inno “O Redemptor” or performing a popular song.

Ritocchi some solemn prayers of Good Friday

In the climate of ecumenical Second Vatican Council, it was noted by several parties that some expressions of “Orationes sollemnes” of the Good Friday today playing pretty bad. It 'been so insistently asked if it had not been possible to mitigate at least some phrases.

Rincresce always having to get their hands on venerable texts, which have for centuries nurtured, and so effectively, Christian piety, and still have the scent of spiritual age of heroic beginnings of the Church, is especially touching malagevole literary masterpieces of a form and concettuosità insurmountable. Nevertheless, it was considered proper to tackle the job, because in the prayer of the Church no reason to try spiritual discomfort.

The adjustments were limited all’indispensabile. In the 1st prayer for the Holy Church has been deleted the phrase subiciens and principatus et potestates, which while not excluding the inspiration to S. Paul (Colos. 2, 15) about the angelic power could provide all’equivoco about a temporal role of the Church, true in other times, anachronistic today.

L ’ “7th prayer” is entitled: For Christian Unity (not of the Church, which was always one). No one speaks more than heretics and scismatici, but of all our brothers who believe in Christ. The full text says:

"We pray for all our brothers who believe in Christ: - O Lord our God, that grants them - following the truth - are gathered and stored ground in your Church.

– O God Almighty and eternal - that riunisci the missing, - Watch your sheep of the flock - because they are united in the bond of love - and the integrity of faith - those who are consecrated by one baptism. "

L ’ “8th prayer” for the Jews (the first for the conversion of Jews) is completely redone and sounds:

"We pray for the Jews - the Lord our God - is worthy to shine upon them his face - because recognize also the Redeemer of all - Jesus Christ our Lord.

– O God Almighty and inside, - that to Abraham and his descendants - you’ve done your promises - heard goodness with the prayer of your Church, - because what once was your people elected, may reach the fullness of Redemption " .

L ’ “9th prayer” for those who still do not believe in Christ (rather than the conversion of infidels is expressed thus:

"Let us pray - for those who still do not believe in Christ - because filled light of the Holy Spirit - can also come in the way of salvation.

– O God Almighty and eternal - at your Son dilettisimo have given all peoples: - join your church families of all popooli, - because trying the light of truth - can come to you, the one true God. "

Scholars think at highlighting the biblical and liturgical sources from which or to which sdi inspire the new text, drafted with the chisel from Groups study of Consilium. It also say that often the work is carried cum fear and trembling in having to sacrifice expressions and concepts so dear, and now for the long custom families. How can we not regret that for example to holy matrem Ecclesiam catholicam atque apostolicam dignetur revoke the seventh prayer? **And yet love of souls and the desire to facilitate in every way the path of the separated brethren, removing stone that may constitute a stumbling while lontamente or cause of discomfort, led the Church to those painful sacrifices. **In confidence that the common prayer worth to speed the day when the whole family of God gathered in the integrity of faith and a sign of charity, may sing a voice, a stringed Alleluia Easter of resurrection and life.

A. BUGNINI
 
…I can’t seem to find a good quote or reference to this anywhere.
Just off the top of my head, perhaps you can’t find a good quote or reference because none exist?

I’ve lurked here long enough to know that all you have to do is search the forums for “Bugnini” and you will get a plethora of threads. Have fun.

Me personally? Much ado about nothing. The OF is a valid Mass. It is not Methodist, or Lutheran or anything else but Catholic. Does the OF look like the EF (the TLM)? No, but then the TLM does not look like a lot of the other valid Masses and Divine Liturgies that are part of the various Catholic Rites.
 
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