Vatican II - Bishops - The Holy Spirit

[jmtowle]

Liturgically speaking, a great deal of cynicism and or skepticism has been made manifest since the close of the Second Vatican Council, which I think has spilled over into other areas of the Church.

As I read the various threads it becomes clear to me that a majority of Catholics have a tangible distrust for those who do not share their idea(s) of “true Catholicism”. Each side is convinced that the other is out to destroy the Church in some manner.

How likely is it that most of the Bishops who attended and participated in this Council saw this coming? By that I mean the true division of people on proper liturgical devotion? Would these Bishops or could these Bishops have anticipated that within the laity some people would have serious concerns that their pastor or parish priest might be trying to subvert the Faith and the Church itself? How many of the 2,200 plus Bishops considered the possibility that the laity and some of the consecrated, would gradually take control of parishes with the blessings of easy going or complicit priests and institute their personal theology, particularly concerning the Mass?

As a group, what is the thinking of the modern American Bishops on the State of the Church in America today?

The Holy Spirit knew this was going to unfold; how do you think the Holy Spirit will make It’s Will known to the modern American Catholic Church?

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[SMHW]

As a group, what is the thinking of the modern American Bishops on the State of the Church in America today?

As a group? I think that the USCCB website is the best place to find out this information. Obviously individual bishops have opinions that differ from the group or we’d have a lot less to post about.

The Holy Spirit knew this was going to unfold; how do you think the Holy Spirit will make It’s Will known to the modern American Catholic Church?

My personal opinion is that the Holy Spirit has been blowing the Church through a journey, not only since Vatican II but for the Church’s full history.

I’m not sure what the lesson of this latest journey is because we haven’t finished it yet. In any case, I think the Holy Spirit will continue to reveal God’s will the same way as has been happening since before Vatican II, during Vatican II, and in the years since Vatican II.

 

[thunderballs75]

Honestly, the majority of people love the Spirit of Vatican II. They love the guitar and piano. They love the dancing. They love the banners. They love the vibrant hymns. They love the hand-holding. They love it all. The people that don’t (myself included) are very very much the minority. So your idea about all of this division and split between people in the Church is really just kind of based on CAF. Most people would not even understand the things people talk about on these forums.

 

[jmtowle]

Originally posted by thunderballs75

Honestly, the majority of people love the Spirit of Vatican II. They love the guitar and piano. They love the dancing. They love the banners. They love the vibrant hymns. They love the hand-holding. They love it all. The people that don’t (myself included) are very very much the minority. So your idea about all of this division and split between people in the Church is really just kind of based on CAF. Most people would not even understand the things people talk about on these forums.

A little too much generalizing.

The diocese of Tucson has what I would refer to as a decent balance of traditional and “Spirit of Vatican II” liturgical practices. Holy Family has a TLM each Sunday and my parish, St. Francis de Sales celebrates the NO with some latin and older traditional hymns, a cantor and beautiful choir. The pastor would hardly be thought of as anything other than traditional but considers the NO done with reverence to be the best of all worlds.

The parish 3 miles from my home represents in my opinion and I think yours, most everything that is wrong about liturgy run wild. My neighbor, a medical doctor and a self professed political liberal can’t bare to attend Mass at the parish near us. She tried to help the new pastor who inherited this parish and as a new member of the parish council
observed incredible animosity towards a Deacon trying to reign in blatant abuses. Rubrics? What does Rubrics have to do with anything?

So if I had to guess, there are likely 25 to 50 families doing what my neighbor and I are doing; participating and contributing at parishes 15 to 20 miles away. In addition to that, we have both discussed the distrust that seems to go both ways. Many of the parishioners at the parish near us are deathly afraid of the Bishop interfering with their unique liturgical practices that were established by the previous pastor and member of the religious order Salvatorians.

On the other hand, there are many like myself who wonder how it can be or why it is necessary for a parish to be so “unique” as to be so separated liturgically from the rest of the diocese; with the exception of the parish on the other end of town, run by another Salvatorian priest. Examples; peace sign immediately following the liturgy of the Word,
prayers of the faithful being read by various lay people at their seats(no kneelers), people at the rear of the knave proceeding first for communion ( reverse order to any other Mass I’ve attended ). And the new building that is being used for Mass but considered temporary, being named for John XXIII and the tabernacle being kept in the sacristy off the vestibule along with the one “risen” crucifix.

I don’t think members of either parish spend much time discussing their feelings about the other, liturgically speaking, but without question, the feelings are there.

My sisters in Chicago have discussed similar situations and while it’s true that liberal parishes abound, traditional Catholics are making their voices heard at the parish level and to the Bishop. I think you underestimate the size of those who are primarily traditional, just not TLM traditional and as my neighbor attests to, are otherwise liberal thinking people. And these people would feel comfortable participating in CAF but don’t, for whatever reasons. My personal experience is that a majority of people desire something far different than your descriptions of the spirit of V II liturgy, a few parishes seem to prefer these whistles and bells but most do not. Maybe it’s just that Southern Arizona is an anomaly and maybe parts of suburban Chicago, but I have a different sense of things than you do.

May the Peace of Christ be with us all, always

JT

 

[Jean_Anthony]

I will allow this thread to continue if there is no denigrating of any rite of the Church and no denigration of any diocese/parish/persons. Please be careful, everyone, to keep the discussion charitable. Thank you all.

 

[bpbasilphx]

They love the guitar and piano. They love the dancing. They love the banners. They love the vibrant hymns. They love the hand-holding. They love it all.

---

**The only thing here not permitted by the Church is dancing.

There were banners carried in processions even before Vatican II.**

 

[Walking_Home]

They love the guitar and piano. They love the dancing. They love the banners. They love the vibrant hymns. They love the hand-holding. They love it all.

---

**The only thing here not permitted by the Church is dancing.

**There were banners carried in processions even before Vatican II.****/B]​

Would you use this same defense if it happened that some in the Eastern rites --started replacing the iconography in the Eastern churches with banners.

 

[pnewton]

The Holy Spirit knew this was going to unfold; how do you think the Holy Spirit will make It’s Will known to the modern American Catholic Church?

I guess it depends on whether one trusts the Holy Spirit or one doesn’t. As Jesus said, it is hard to kick against the goads. I fear this is what too many do today and why bitterness prevails over charity.