Vatican II Contradiction?

[ThePKCatholic]

I just recently converted to Catholicism at this last Easter Vigil. Let me also preface this by saying that I am 20 years old, in college, and have been raised protestant my entire life. Both my Dad and Grandfather are practicing ministers.

First and foremost I have been greatly on fire for the past few months coming up to and going through the Easter Vigil. Although, during the past few weeks of the summer break, something has really been discouraging me; and until I get the thought out and some opinions on it, I feel like I may explode.

I will not paste the quote of Vatican II, but it is LG 15 in which it explains that all those holding onto sacred scripture are also fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

(I will attempt to keep my question and logical issue to point and quick)

a) If those “fallen” away people whom are ‘protesting’ the Church, are also fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, then that would mean that the Holy Spirit is also guiding them along as well. And as the LG 15 states, they do not share in the sacraments, but they are brothers and sisters none-the-less. And so, I can only assume we would agree they are in communion with God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Let me break away and explain the reason the next part is an issue for me.
Upon my opening up to my family about my conversion, my entire family came forth with apprehension (to put it mildly). The most blunt was my grandfather whom emailed me revealing his disappointment, disgust, and of being ashamed that I would “turn my back on Christ” and my “faith.” I stood my ground, but the lasting effects of the many words still linger today.

b) If these fellow people are brothers and sisters in Christ, this would mean that they also hold the truth and are “guided” by the Holy Spirit. And so, for my Grandfather to say these words, it would seem that if he knew (for as much as any of us know) that the Holy Spirit was guiding him to say this, It seems that we have a grave contradiction going on.

And it appears that with A; The Holy Catholic Church goes on acknowledging that other fallen away Brothers and Sisters in Christ, although not in communion with the church, are still “Brothers” and “Sisters” none-the-less, opens a door for B; These people whom are said to be also “holy spirit guided”, to bring an entire array of contradictions upon the idea. For what they say too, would have to be taken as truth.

And in a quick terms it comes down to; If one says the others are also ‘with’ us, yet the other says we are dead wrong, hell bound, heretics; does it come to a cross-road of: Do we REALLY believe these protesting brothers and sisters are truly ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters’ or are we being ‘nice’ by acknowledging their belief in ‘scriptures’ or ‘Mary’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ even tho they continue to contradict us as well as each other whom are also “Guided” by the Holy Spirit.

This entire circle and idea has consumed me within my break. I suppose being home and feeling the uneasy spirit pushes me to ask this question that was easily suppressed and forgotten about while away at college.

I lost my faith once, before I converted, and I feel myself going that way again. Sadly, instead of feeling scared, I almost feel a sense of “relief”, for after three months of “aruging” with Family and Friends, I almost come to feel a lot of this as very futile and dumb.

Blessings,

PKC

 

[tonyrey]

And in a quick terms it comes down to; If one says the others are also ‘with’ us, yet the other says we are dead wrong, hell bound, heretics; does it come to a cross-road of: Do we REALLY believe these protesting brothers and sisters are truly ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters’ or are we being ‘nice’ by acknowledging their belief in ‘scriptures’ or ‘Mary’ or ‘Jesus Christ’ even tho they continue to contradict us as well as each other whom are also “Guided” by the Holy Spirit.

They are not infallible and neither are we! Our differences count for nothing if we are sincere and live with love for one another despite our differences. Jesus did not ostracise anyone…

 

[VetA]

they are our brethren by virtue of their baptism. they are guided by the Holy Ghost by way of being guided to the truth of the Holy mother Church (weather or not they choose to accept that call is up to them, God does give us free will to choose or deny him after all).

 

[VetA]

They are not infallible and neither are we! Our differences count for nothing if we are sincere and live with love for one another despite our differences. Jesus did not ostracise anyone…

he did not seem too fond of unrepentant sinners

 

[tonyrey]

he did not seem too fond of unrepentant sinners

Who are we to judge?

 

[Rolltide]

I have very little time to respond tonight, but regarding your question, you need to look up the following two topics:

1. What is truly meant by the Catholic idea of “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church”
2. “Invincible ignorance”

 

[VetA]

Who are we to judge?

so just because we are sinners (sorry for our sins) we should tolerate and be buddy buddy with people who are proud to reject God, gotcha . but while you are chilling in the near occasion of sin i will be trying to be around people who are going to help me in my battle against temptation, not hinder me

 

[ThePKCatholic]

so just because we are sinners (sorry for our sins) we should tolerate and be buddy buddy with people who are proud to reject God, gotcha . but while you are chilling in the near occasion of sin i will be trying to be around people who are going to help me in my battle against temptation, not hinder me

Yat again another contradiction I get stumbled up on.

On one hand we have scriptures telling us to NOT judge, and not look at the stick in our Brothers and Sisters eyes. Then, we have other scriptures telling us to not even mingle with these “sinners.” I could list out the scriptures and tear them apart; but I think what it comes down to is we need to use our discretion as to what and who we “hang” around with. (Yet again, when I say that, I feel judgmental). But, you know what I mean.

As for the other topic, I appreciate everyones responses.
I really like the idea that, as much as others do not want to admit it, they are getting pointed towards Holy Mother Church. I had never thought of it that way.

Have a blessed day all,

PKC

 

[Lycorth]

On one hand we have scriptures telling us to NOT judge, and not look at the stick in our Brothers and Sisters eyes. Then, we have other scriptures telling us to not even mingle with these “sinners.” I could list out the scriptures and tear them apart; but I think what it comes down to is we need to use our discretion as to what and who we “hang” around with. (Yet again, when I say that, I feel judgmental). But, you know what I mean.

Indeed, this is why the Scriptures are not for private interpretation, and never were. This is why God saw fit to give us Holy Mother Church and give the Pope and the Magisterium in union with him infallible teaching authority. Chaos ensues where order is not enforced - that is human nature.

Private interpretation of the Scriptures is one of the worst things to have ever happened to Christianity. It has led to thousands of feuding sects springing up and confusing the masses who just want spiritual guidance and answers. When we once had a single voice in Holy Mother Church now we have thousands of little voices all clamoring at once, drowning out the Church’s voice and leading millions of souls astray.

The Church teaches us all we need to know about judging, the different kinds and ways of judging, and how to do so justly. Merely reading the Scriptures will not provide a sure answer because the Scriptures are not ours (the laity’s) to interpret in the first place. As a convert, you know the Church has the right answers, so go to her and trust in God’s true plan for us

 

[Just_Lurking]

UR 3 is a bit more explicit. Here is a piece:

Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

 

[tonyrey]

Who are we to judge?

You are jumping to conclusions. Your judgmental attitude is precisely what alienates so many people from the Church. It does not follow because we should not judge that we should tolerate sin. Jesus did not condemn the sinner but sin. If you are only concerned about saving yourself you are certainly not following His example…

 

[ThePKCatholic]

Indeed, this is why the Scriptures are not for private interpretation, and never were. This is why God saw fit to give us Holy Mother Church and give the Pope and the Magisterium in union with him infallible teaching authority. Chaos ensues where order is not enforced - that is human nature.

Private interpretation of the Scriptures is one of the worst things to have ever happened to Christianity. It has led to thousands of feuding sects springing up and confusing the masses who just want spiritual guidance and answers. When we once had a single voice in Holy Mother Church now we have thousands of little voices all clamoring at once, drowning out the Church’s voice and leading millions of souls astray.

The Church teaches us all we need to know about judging, the different kinds and ways of judging, and how to do so justly. Merely reading the Scriptures will not provide a sure answer because the Scriptures are not ours (the laity’s) to interpret in the first place. As a convert, you know the Church has the right answers, so go to her and trust in God’s true plan for us

You are very right. I suppose coming home to a very “protestant” family, it is easy to all of a sudden go back into that old mind-set.

Thank you for every single word you just said; You have no idea how much it has helped!

Blessings,

PKC

 

[VetA]

indeed, this is why the scriptures are not for private interpretation, and never were. This is why god saw fit to give us holy mother church and give the pope and the magisterium in union with him infallible teaching authority. Chaos ensues where order is not enforced - that is human nature.

Private interpretation of the scriptures is one of the worst things to have ever happened to christianity. It has led to thousands of feuding sects springing up and confusing the masses who just want spiritual guidance and answers. When we once had a single voice in holy mother church now we have thousands of little voices all clamoring at once, drowning out the church’s voice and leading millions of souls astray.

The church teaches us all we need to know about judging, the different kinds and ways of judging, and how to do so justly. Merely reading the scriptures will not provide a sure answer because the scriptures are not ours (the laity’s) to interpret in the first place. As a convert, you know the church has the right answers, so go to her and trust in god’s true plan for us

amen brother

 

[Lycorth]

You are very right. I suppose coming home to a very “protestant” family, it is easy to all of a sudden go back into that old mind-set.

Thank you for every single word you just said; You have no idea how much it has helped!

Blessings,

PKC

I am very glad to have been on help

My wife is converting to Catholicism from a Lutheran background, so I think I can understand where you’re coming from. Heck, I was a Protestant for a little over a year in my youth, so I know what the temptation is like to worship the Bible and not the One who inspired it.

You are very welcome (and you too, VetA)

 

[Leela]

so just because we are sinners (sorry for our sins) we should tolerate and be buddy buddy with people who are proud to reject God, gotcha . but while you are chilling in the near occasion of sin i will be trying to be around people who are going to help me in my battle against temptation, not hinder me

If the life of Jesus is also the message of Jesus, then it seems to me that you are way off on what you are called to do. Jesus spent his time among “sinners” and was at his most tender with “sinners” (especially those guilty of sexual sins). He saved his fierce anger for those who were self-righteous and quick to comdemn others.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

Yat again another contradiction I get stumbled up on.

On one hand we have scriptures telling us to NOT judge, and not look at the stick in our Brothers and Sisters eyes. Then, we have other scriptures telling us to not even mingle with these “sinners.” I could list out the scriptures and tear them apart; but I think what it comes down to is we need to use our discretion as to what and who we “hang” around with. (Yet again, when I say that, I feel judgmental). But, you know what I mean.

As for the other topic, I appreciate everyones responses.
I really like the idea that, as much as others do not want to admit it, they are getting pointed towards Holy Mother Church. I had never thought of it that way.

Have a blessed day all,

PKC

What do you mean by judge?

 

[Leela]

Yat again another contradiction I get stumbled up on.

On one hand we have scriptures telling us to NOT judge, and not look at the stick in our Brothers and Sisters eyes. Then, we have other scriptures telling us to not even mingle with these “sinners.” I could list out the scriptures and tear them apart; but I think what it comes down to is we need to use our discretion as to what and who we “hang” around with. (Yet again, when I say that, I feel judgmental). But, you know what I mean.

As for the other topic, I appreciate everyones responses.
I really like the idea that, as much as others do not want to admit it, they are getting pointed towards Holy Mother Church. I had never thought of it that way.

Have a blessed day all,

PKC

What might be helpful for you is to draw a distinction between simply drawing distinctions as in discerning right from wrong and the condemnation of those who practice wrong behavior.

 

[Abu]

We are commanded to judge
There seems to be some confusion over judging, and on others being in some way part of Christ’s Church.

We are commanded to judge words, writing and actions against the truth, so that we can know and show right from wrong; good from evil.
Christ and His Church’s Scriptures tell us:

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly.” (Jn 7:24).

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them” (Mt 7:15, 16).

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.” (Mt 7:19-20).

“Test everything: retain what is good.” (1Thess 5:21).

“The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgement by anyone.” (1 Cor 2:15).

“I, for my part, although absent in body but present in spirit, have already, as if present, pronounced judgement on the one who has committed this deed…” (1 Cor 5:3; read 1-13).

“I am speaking as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying.” (1 Cor 10:15).

“Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” (1 Jn 4:1).

“I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth.” (Rev 3:16).

We can’t judge according to truth by being mesmerised by others and giving them adulation, but according to the teaching of Christ’s Church, Her Tradition and Her Scriptures.

Jesus has commanded “Stop judging, that you may not be not judged.” (Mt 7:1; read 1-5). We are commanded not to judge others regarding their motives, intentions, and guilt before God (a judgment reserved to God).

The Church has always regarded the baptism of non-Catholics as valid – and a valid baptism means you are, in some sense, in union with Christ through His Church. Further, Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95) affirmed that “those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God." Christ’s Church knew from the beginning that non-Catholics could be saved. Catholic Apologetics Today, 1986, Fr William G Most, p 145].

The “necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation” = no salvation without the Catholic Church; the doctrinal meaning of the phrase, means that whether they know it or not, salvation for anyone can come only through Christ’s Church. Christ offers the actual graces which can enable them to follow the natural moral law, and come home if they have the opportunity to so do.

 

[Abu]

ThePKCatholic
Jesus founded ONE Church on Peter; He never wrote anything, but His Church gave us the New Testament and declared which writings form the Bible. You cannot have seven sacraments and partake of the Body and Blood of Jesus at Holy Mass while having ALL that He taught under His Vicar the Pope, anywhere else.

Those who have not heard the full gospel as found in the Holy Catholic Church, have a possibility of salvation. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church is where the sacraments that Christ established on earth are given. Those who are in the actual mystical body of Christ (that is the Catholic Church) can achieve salvation easier than others (though even we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling). One can achieve salvation, but without these grace-filling sacraments it is much harder for non-Catholics to do so. That is why Catholics must still evangelize non-Catholics to come into the Church that Christ established. God wills all to be saved, but salvation depends on the cooperation of those who are actually saved.

The drive for real ecumenism since Vatican II has seen a marked appreciation of the truths of faith which has resulted in many coming home – like Scott Hahn, the type of well-versed Scriptural non-Catholic who sees the testimony of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church and the continuity of Christ’s teaching through the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

 

[excubitor]

(I will attempt to keep my question and logical issue to point and quick)

a) If those “fallen” away people whom are ‘protesting’ the Church, are also fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, then that would mean that the Holy Spirit is also guiding them along as well. And as the LG 15 states, they do not share in the sacraments, but they are brothers and sisters none-the-less. And so, I can only assume we would agree they are in communion with God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Let me break away and explain the reason the next part is an issue for me.
Upon my opening up to my family about my conversion, my entire family came forth with apprehension (to put it mildly). The most blunt was my grandfather whom emailed me revealing his disappointment, disgust, and of being ashamed that I would “turn my back on Christ” and my “faith.” I stood my ground, but the lasting effects of the many words still linger today.

b) If these fellow people are brothers and sisters in Christ, this would mean that they also hold the truth and are “guided” by the Holy Spirit. And so, for my Grandfather to say these words, it would seem that if he knew (for as much as any of us know) that the Holy Spirit was guiding him to say this, It seems that we have a grave contradiction going on.

And it appears that with A; The Holy Catholic Church goes on acknowledging that other fallen away Brothers and Sisters in Christ, although not in communion with the church, are still “Brothers” and “Sisters” none-the-less, opens a door for B; These people whom are said to be also “holy spirit guided”, to bring an entire array of contradictions upon the idea. For what they say too, would have to be taken as truth.

Blessings,

PKC

Its fantastic to see such an articulate and well read 20 year old. I am in the same boat as you but am double the age. I was also converted at the Easter vigil and went through the same agonies over Vatican 2 as you have. I thought that if I am already a brother and sister of the catholic faith by virtue of baptism then why do I need to convert to Catholicism and go through all the family turmoil.

There is really no concrete contradiction with the teachings of the church in Lumen Gentium. It makes it clear that those who know that the Catholic church is the one true holy apostolic catholic church of the creed and fails to enter into her, cannot be saved.

I think you are reading a bit too much into the statement “brothers and sisters”. The council also talks about the brotherhood of all mankind in that we are all sons of Adam. A brotherhood means different things depending on the context in which it is being used. In the case of the council documents the intent is to build bonds of brotherhood with all men in order to open a dialogue with them and so to preach the gospel to them.

In the case of our Protestant brothers its a little bit more complex. Those who have been validly baptised are by their baptisms become members of the church and subjects of the Roman Pontiff. But if they knowingly reject the Pontiff and knowingly reject articles of the catholic faith, or willfully refuse to investigate doctrines, or willfully avoid coming into union with the catholic church then they are schismatic and heretic and cannot be saved. So this is where invincible ignorance comes in. Its talking about protestants who sail along in their faith and it never occurs to them to investigate the catholic faith or have any clue that they should, or never have any opportunity to do so. In particular it talks about the children of schismatics and heretics who are not directly culpable in their actions.

This appeals to the mercy of God. These invincibly ignorant people are our brothers and sisters in a real way even though we are not visibly in full communion. Baptism by desire is another principle. It took me 5 years from when I first learned about the first Catholic truths and started to develop Catholic sympathies. So if I had died during those intervening years I believe that I would have been saved because I never rejected the Catholic church. But if I would have been saved if I had died in the last 5 years, then why not in the last 15 years, or the last 20-40 years. Who can judge these things? None of us can, only God. These are the issues that the Vatican 2 council struggled with. They were perplexed because they witnessed so many elements of grace and truth in the protestant churches. How could this be explained? The previous old church would write these issues off utterly with a black and white “No salvation outside the church”. But Vatican 2 dug deeper and really came up with some profound depths of meaning.

Sadly of course critics of the church and the council twist the words of the Council and make it mean something different than what it says.

So really V2 gives you hope for your parents. It could be that they today are just you like and I as we were 5-10 years ago. God may have destined for them also to come into the fulness of the Catholic faith. Therefore its important that you continue to show love, patience and honour toward them as potential full brothers in the Lord. Bear their insults and barbed words with patience like our Lord who went to his condemnation like a lamb to the slaughter. In the end your patience may convert their hearts.

The last piece of advice to you is to forget about what other people are doing. Concentrate on being a faithful catholic. These issues of Vatican 2 are really for great and educated churchmen. A lot of it is strong meat which new converts are really not ready to assimilate. So concentrate on the very basics of the faith for now. The prayers, the sacraments, the mass. Be faithful each day and put your troubles on Jesus and his sacred heart. He can bear it all for you so that your burden will be light.