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pnewton
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I know. That is why I specified who I was speaking of, that is, most of the ones here. History is replete with individuals, but it still tends to repeat itself.
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TMC
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How many Catholics think Vatican II was heretical (or even "bad’)? A tiny, tiny percentage of Catholics. Unfortunately, a great many of them hang out at CAF.
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pnewton
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Yes, there are more of these than their all of the more extreme. Still, I know none of either, and I would think both groups are in a small minority.
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Saxum
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Are you honestly saying you don’t know anybody who thinks Vatican II has been misinterpreted? I’d find that assertion impossible to believe.
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Shakuhachi
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Might make a good survey:
V2 was a big mistake from the start and heretical.
V2 was a valid council with good documents but misused and poorly implemented.
V2 was valid and brought much needed change along with some unfortunate outcomes.
V2 was a gift from God whose Holy Spirit worked through all phases and implementations
V2 was a big mistake from the start and heretical.
V2 was a valid council with good documents but misused and poorly implemented.
V2 was valid and brought much needed change along with some unfortunate outcomes.
V2 was a gift from God whose Holy Spirit worked through all phases and implementations
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itsjustdave1988
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I disagree. High school kids can read and understood Vatican II docs. If you can read the Bible, you should have little difficulty reading Vatican II docs. Problems occur when people read these docs with a preexisting agenda.
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Saxum
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The ability to read and the ability to comprehend are different. High school kids can read Vatican II but they’ll lack the knowledge to understand to the same degree as a theologian.
Furthermore, Catholics read the Bible with the help of the Catechism and the Doctors and Fathers. Catholics do not read Scripture or Church documents in isolation. They need help to interpret things properly.
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TMC
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A vanishingly small minority.
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itsjustdave1988
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Who says they need to understand them to the same degree as theologians?? My kids understood them just fine without being theologians or needing their help to understand them. Nor am I a theologian, and I understand them just fine. Dei Verbum’s readability is 8.6, meaning it is less than 9th grade reading level. I imagine the others were written at similar readability levels. It’s a sad day in the the state of our education system if HS students cannot read at the 8th grade level.
Frankly, I think more post-Vatican II problems occured because people DIDN’T read the texts for themselves, but instead trusted their modernist priest to accurately promugate the teachings as they were written. Some presented heretical notions, or at least private opinions, as if it were taught by Vatican II, and unfortunately, many Catholics were fooled by it.
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pnewton
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Then consider me dishonest, if you will. It is nothing more than I would expect.
But no, I do not know one person who believes like the people here whom I have interacted on a personal level that has questioned Vatican II, or has complained about its implementation.
But no, I do not know one person who believes like the people here whom I have interacted on a personal level that has questioned Vatican II, or has complained about its implementation.
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Saxum
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Your experience is the polar opposite to mine. Along with laypeople, I’ve met several priests who insist that Vatican II hasn’t been implemented properly. I have one priest friend who says that it has been interpreted too broadly and another priest friend who says that Vatican II has been interpreted too narrowly.
There have been entire books written about Vatican II and the arguments over interpretation. This is an issue no Catholic can escape. One might be unaware of the battle for meaning, but it definitely exists - and it has definitely impacted the lives of all Catholics.
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pnewton
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Sure they can. It impacts my life not at all. My I ask as to how you think it should impact my life, as an example?
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Saxum
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All Catholics are affected by the interpretation of Sacrosanctum Concilium. Most Catholics have no experience of Mass in Latin. Another example. All Catholics are affected by the interpretation Nostra Aetate. They’re told by the Pope that ‘proselytism is solemn nonsense’ and consequently feel no pressing need to convert their family and friends to the One True Faith. Another example. An interpretation of Vatican II was that nuns would no longer wear the habit. Most young Catholics have never seen habited nuns in public.
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pnewton
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I see where you are coming from. This may be a difference in how you define terms. For example, I do not see myself affected by how many nuns I see in habits or how many times, if ever, I have heard Mass in Latin, outside those facts themselves. As far as proselytizing, it is a non-issue, to quote the great philosopher Popeye, “I am what I am and that’s all that I am.”
You are meaning that all are affected by these external things. I was thinking more internally.
You are meaning that all are affected by these external things. I was thinking more internally.
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Shakuhachi
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Not a bad thing.
There is a difference between “trying to convert” someone (have you been successful?) and witnessing with ones own faith.
That was left up to each order. Many still wear a veil and modified habit. If others choose not to, that is their call and to be respected.
V2 was badly needed and I am glad I lived through it.
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Shakuhachi
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You now can hear Mass in a language you understand. In many places you are also offered the cup as well as the host. You have the opportunity to participate in the RCIA process.
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Saxum
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Why was ‘V2 badly needed?’ I was born after Vatican II and would like to read about your experience.
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Shakuhachi
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A thread here might help:
Why was Vatican II necessary? Apologetics
www.crisismagazine.com
I was in 6th grade. Even though I was an alter server TLM did not seem like a celebration, more a very formal thing wherein no mistakes were tolerated. As a kind that was scary.
Open Windows: Why Vatican II Was Necessary
On the third day of the conclave — October 28, 1958 — the white smoke signaled to the crowd in St. Peter’s Square the election of a new pope, Angelo Cardinal Roncalli, patriarch of Venice…
www.crisismagazine.com
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
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Yes. My elderly neighbor told me once that pre-Vatican II it was God’s mercy that he was not an altar boy. He said he brother would wind up in confession for all his ‘sins’ committed during Mass–which were frequently the honest mistakes of a pious little boy.
Short of malicious behavior today we do not teach children that giving their best to God when serving is a sin at all.
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