Vatican II: "...never even read the documents."

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Hello All,

I’m new here, and I thought I’d jump right in with a brief intro and by addressing a topic that is dear to me, and to seek some help in my work. As time allows, I plan to post all over the site on various topics. Message borads like this have played a large part in my journey of faith.

I recently published Part I of a multi-part Vatican II document study guide entitled Harvesting the Fruit of Vatican II. It bears an Imprimatur, and has been used by individuals and parish based study groups in various parts of the US over the last year and a half to great benefit. Feedback from participants has been incredibly positive.

The words in my topic, “never even read the documents,” are the words of Fr. Peter Stravinskas, who wrote the Foreword to the guide. He is speaking of the majority of Catholics - laity, clergy, and religious alike - who have all-too-often errant opinions about the Council, but have never even read the documents, much less studied them in the light of Tradition.

In addition to Fr. Stravinskas, the study guide has been endorsed by other noted theologians, clergy, and well-repsected lay persons. Most notably, however, is the recently issued, enthusiastic endorsement of George Cardinal Pell of Sydney, Australia. His words will appear in our next printing.

For now I want to ask: How many of us have not only read the conciliar documents, but have taken the time to truly study them by referencing Scripture and the CCC?

Is there a study such as this available in your parish now?

In time, one of the things I would like to learn here is how people with a similar passion for seeing Catholics at long last study the teachings of the Council firsthand might suggest I go about inviting people to do so. This work has been a great blessing for me and a relatively small handful of others thus far, but in time I hope to see it used widely, as to be a blessing for the Church.
 
First of all, I aplaud you for undertaking the valuable work of bringing the documents from the most important (but most under-rated and misunderstood) religious event in the recent history of our Church. If all of us knew these writings more in depth, we would be the better for it.
Conciliar said:
For now I want to ask: How many of us have not only read the conciliar documents, but have taken the time to truly study them by referencing Scripture and the CCC?
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I have read bits and pieces of most of them (mostly in the context of studying other things) but the only VII document I have studied in depth is Dei Verbum (on Divine Revelation). This is because I was asked to deliver and prepare an Adult Confirmation class lessson based primarily on this document.
Is there a study such as this available in your parish now?
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Not to my knowledge.
In time, one of the things I would like to learn here is how people with a similar passion for seeing Catholics at long last study the teachings of the Council firsthand might suggest I go about inviting people to do so.
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I don’t think there would be that much of a demand for a free-standing series of lessons on the documents themselves. Like many other worthy topics, the average Catholic is not motivated to delve very deeply into the teachings of the Faith unless they are forced to. This means they have to be promoted from where you can reach them: from the pulpit.

Of course you can’t go through a whole VII document in a Sunday homily, but the priest can at least offer enough of a “teaser” to get people interested enough to attend a full blown class. In other words, without heart-felt promotion by the pastor at Sunday Mass — good luck.

Having said that, where I have seen them presented with some success is in the context of existing faith sharing or discussion groups, for example by local CUF chapters.
 
For now I want to ask: How many of us have not only read the conciliar documents, but have taken the time to truly study them by referencing Scripture and the CCC?
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I’ve read Sacrosanctum Concilium, Dei Verbum and bits and pieces of most of the other ones. I’ve finally got a good translation (not the “inclusive” one I had before-couldn’t hardly stand to read that one) and so will be doing so.

However, I think that it is important to read Vatican II not only by studying them with Scripture and the CCC but even going further than that. The encyclicals of the popes such as Mediator Dei concerning the Liturgical Renewal are real eye-openers when compared with the “Spirit” pushed by some. The Roman Catechism and other sources are also important in order to be able to read Vatican II in the light of Tradition. I think one issue with the “Spirit of Vatican II” is that some folks forcibly divorced everything that happened “pre-Vatican II” from the recent Council and that really aided all the innovations.
 
Conciliar said:
Hello All,
For now I want to ask: How many of us have not only read the conciliar documents, but have taken the time to truly study them by referencing Scripture and the CCC?

Is there a study such as this available in your parish now?

In time, one of the things I would like to learn here is how people with a similar passion for seeing Catholics at long last study the teachings of the Council firsthand might suggest I go about inviting people to do so. This work has been a great blessing for me and a relatively small handful of others thus far, but in time I hope to see it used widely, as to be a blessing for the Church.
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I have read them (most of them) and skimmed a few of them and studied many of them. I’m working on a project for the 50th anniversary. I have offered a study some the documents and no one was interested.

Anyone interested in this 50th year project can Email me and I’ll send it to you. It’s 493k pdf file and won’t upload here.
 
Conciliar,

Hello and welcome to the Catholic Answers Forums. I hope you have a blessed and fruitful time here.

I read the documents about 25 years ago in my Protestant days. Since then I have looked things up in them.

To the best of my knowledge, my parish is offering a study of Vatican II. I’ve not been attending, though.
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I have read some of the documents, esp. Sacrosanctum Concilium.

And I agree…people who claim “Vatican II said X” have NEVER read the documents, because if they did, they would relize how ignorant they are as to what was actually put down in black and white.

Don’t get me started.

Our parish does not have any kind of a class, although we do have an adult education program and it would not surprise me to see this come up as a topic.

I am also a memeber of the Frassati Society at my parish and at one event when one of our priests was asking for suggestions for talks, I suggested the V2 documets. He agreed, and he did follow through and give a talk on Sacrosanctum Concilium, including a video of a Tridentine Mass. It was very informative.

But no, nothing formal.

I doubt if they did anything formal that most people would even bother to attend…this kind of think needs to be implemented systematically, beginning in the faith formation structure and correcting the simple errors that are made daily.

For example: I began teachign RCIA this year, and while the rest of the team seems to be fairly orthodox and knowledgable, they ARE baby-boomers and thus they have been misinformed and have embraced the misinformation they have been fed for years. A couple months ago I had to literally sit on my hands to prevent myself from interrupting one of the teachers who had just mis-informed the unwitting RCIA class that Vatican II was responsible for the altar being turned around to face the people! :eek:

But I let it go because starting a battle would not have helped the students who won’t remember most of what they are learning, anyway. There’s just too much info being thrown at them to start a fight about V2.
 
our pastor has given such a class at least twice, the diocese offered a study session for catechists, which unfortunately was not taught by my pastor, so it was just a lame rehash of “never read it” they even used a video by such noted Catholic historical and theological experts as Martin Sheen.
 
My college parish did kind of like a book club with the documents. It was led by a very knowledgable deacon. It was very neat and I got so much out of it but demand for it wasn’t that high. One persone drove about an hour every week but some nights there were only three or four people. Of course activity varies a lot depending on the individuals, how difficult the semester is, how the football team is doing, etc.
 
In my opinion the “average” Catholic does not have the time nor the inclination to study such things as the documents of Vatican II, the Papal Encyclicals, or even the Cathechism of the Catholic Church. In our parish we have a knowledgeable deacon from another parish leading a study of the CCC. It will take about two years to get through it. With probably 2000 adults in the parish we have between 50 and 70( the majority are women) in attendance for each weekly session. Most I would opine are just plain not interested in such matters. Those with the interest and motivation are a pretty special breed
 
I have read Dei Verbum about five times and outlined it for a class. I have read Orientalium ecclesiarum, Unitatis Redintegratio, and the first half of Lumen Gentium for another class.

I don’t think there is any class like what you are talking about at my parish.
 
rwoehmke said:
In my opinion the “average” Catholic does not have the time nor the inclination to study such things as the documents of Vatican II, the Papal Encyclicals, or even the Cathechism of the Catholic Church. Most I would opine are just plain not interested in such matters. Those with the interest and motivation are a pretty special breed
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What is an “average” Catholic? Never mind, I know exactly what you mean. I teach a pre-Baptism class where I have captive Catholics each month. In the last five years I probably had a handful that know that the Catechism of the Catholic Church even exists much less own one. I think all Catholics could find the time if they had the inclination. The Vatican II documents are beautiful writings and I feel that all Catholics should at least dabble in them and every Catholic should own a Bible and a Catechism. Oh well, one can dream.:getholy:
 
In my opinion the “average” Catholic does not have the time nor the inclination to study such things as the documents of Vatican II, the Papal Encyclicals, or even the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.
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Who’s fault is that? They have the time, it is just a matter of priorities.

It is one thing when there was a more solid Catholic culture so that even if your average Catholic didn’t know squat about papal encyclicals or conciliar documents (Vatican II, and before) they still knew what the nuns taught them out of the Baltimore Catechism and the “folk” piety that maintains faith.

Now, we often don’t have this tight Catholic culture, people were not always well catechized in the first place and much of the “folk” piety was swept away in the “Spirit of VII”. Now, you generally have folks that are horridly ignorant but at least have that glimmer of piety that keeps them going to Church and believing the basics or folks that are horridly ignorant but think they need to put in their 2 cents of modernism because of their “democratic” view of FutureChurch that “Vatican II” calls for.

I would think that if someone isn’t willing to put in the time to get some knowledge, they ought not comment on matters they know nothing about.
 
I have a similar book, but it specifically says in cereal box fashon something like, “Now with inclusive language!”. Ick. :banghead:

If it isn’t inclusivised it is probably OK. If it is, try your best to work through it.

The one I’m reading now is the 60’s version that has the picture of a medal with Pope Paul VI and Pope John XXIII on the front cover. “The Documents of Vatican II with Notes and Comments by Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox Authorities”. So far so good as far as translation goes, haven’t really read much of the commentary.
 
How about “new revised edition”

It is a yellow book with blue border. It is paperback. It is the book that I got for free for starting My diocesan Ministry Formation program…which is prereq for Deaconate.

THe book is 1000 pages thick. The fact that I got it from the diocesan program is evidence enough I should obtain a different version.
 
Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate it.

You might be surprised at the number of people and parishes that have used Harvesting the Fruit to study the Vatican II documents. Once people - lay and clergy - realize that there are study lessons that draw upon Scripture and the CCC, in an orderly format, with an Imprimatur, the support of orthodox theologians, etc… the response is typically, “I wish I knew this was available sooner.”

Therein lies my challenge. I would like to know how any of you would go about trying to bring much needed exposure to this work. I consider Cardinal Pell’s endorsement a tremendous blessing, but how best to see to it that his kindness actually helps me to invite Catholics to at long lst delve into the Council teachings firsthand is something I must consider. Any advice you may have would be humbly appreciated.

My website has more information about the study if anyone is interested in knowing more about it:

www.catholicword.net
 
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