Vatican II, Orientalium Ecclesiarum and latinisation

[Melkite_Sword]

Hi I just have a question. The Decree from the Second Vatican Council, Orientalium Ecclesiarum states “each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place”

Basically the Melkite Church I attend has rosary on every week, would that be ok?

 

[Melkite_Sword]

I’ve basically always thought that it’s fine until I thought more about it. I mean it’s the Rosary!!!

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

It depends on how the rosary is being used. If it’s being recited publicly before the Divine Liturgy in place of Orthros, then no, it’s not okay. If it’s being promoted as a private devotion, then it’s okay, but it’d be better if the authentic Byzantine “rosary” - the Prayer Rule of the Theotokos - and the Jesus Prayer were being promoted instead.

Also, as Melkites we should be looking to the leadership of our local bishop, the Synod of Bishops, and our Patriarch, all of which have strongly urged for the de-Latinization of our Church.

If you are a member of the Eparchy of Newton here in the U.S., then I strongly encourage you to read the book Courage to be Ourselves, which is a collection of letters, essays, and talks given by our first eparch, Archbishop Joseph Tawil. It would also be good to look at the writings of our current bishop, Nicolas Samra, particularly his book Stewards of the Mysteries. And finally, for a wonderful expression of our Melkite Byzantine spirituality the writings of Archbishop Joseph Raya are unsurpassed to this day, particularly his book The Face of God: Essays in Eastern Spirituality.

 

[Hesychios]

I’ve basically always thought that it’s fine until I thought more about it. I mean it’s the Rosary!!!

I don’t think anyone who posts here would think there is anything inherently wrong with the rosary.

Phillip’s post here is excellent and I agree with his points.

If there is time for it around the scheduled liturgical hours it would be a nice devotion to also bring the community together.

 

[sasg]

I don’t think anyone who posts here would think there is anything inherently wrong with the rosary.

Phillip’s post here is excellent and I agree with his points.

If there is time for it around the scheduled liturgical hours it would be a nice devotion to also bring the community together.

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard of Eastern Orthodox praying the rosary, either publicly or privately (excluding Western-rite Orthodox)?

 

[Hesychios]

Out of curiosity, have you ever heard of Eastern Orthodox praying the rosary, either publicly or privately (excluding Western-rite Orthodox)?

Some do (I am led to believe, from what others have posted over time). I am not cradle Orthodox so someone else might be better informed on it. There is also the prayer Rule of the Theotokos which has been discussed here.

It is a chaplet after all, and like so many others it has worth.

I don’t think most Orthodox people put any credence in the supposed apparitions and promises which helped spread the devotion in the west at one time, but some people will pray the rosary. Taken at face value it has merit of it’s own.

I don’t know if the meditations are known to Orthodox, that was something which was added later in the west. Also, the ‘Ave Maria’ prayer is different, but some former Catholics might pray the Latin rite style.

It is not prayed communally in any Orthodox parish I am aware of. There may be some Orthodox parishes in Eastern Europe which do, but I am not familiar with any. This is why it is a tough question to answer precisely, it really is a private devotion.

For the record I have never seen a rosary for sale in any Orthodox parish bookstore.

 

[sasg]

Some do (I am led to believe, from what others have posted over time). I am not cradle Orthodox so someone else might be better informed on it. There is also the prayer Rule of the Theotokos which has been discussed here.

It is a chaplet after all, and like so many others it has worth.

I don’t think most Orthodox people put any credence in the supposed apparitions and promises which helped spread the devotion in the west at one time, but some people will pray the rosary. Taken at face value it has merit of it’s own.

I don’t know if the meditations are known to Orthodox, that was something which was added later in the west. Also, the ‘Ave Maria’ prayer is different, but some former Catholics might pray the Latin rite style.

It is not prayed communally in any Orthodox parish I am aware of. There may be some Orthodox parishes in Eastern Europe which do, but I am not familiar with any. This is why it is a tough question to answer precisely, it really is a private devotion.

For the record I have never seen a rosary for sale in any Orthodox parish bookstore.

Thank you for your response. Very interesting.

For the record, some Catholics also doubt the apparitions which helped spread the Rosary. As far as I am aware, there is nothing in Catholic teaching that prohibits skepticism about it.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

For the record I have never seen a rosary for sale in any Orthodox parish bookstore.

Nor have I, but I thought the Orthodox Wiki entry for “Rosary” opened on an interesting note:

The rosary was originally an Orthodox form of prayer that was later adopted by the Roman Catholics. It has since fallen out of common practice in the [Orthodox] Church.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Nor have I, but I thought the Orthodox Wiki entry for “Rosary” opened on an interesting note:

I’ve heard this claim before as well. As much as I would like to believe it, I’ve never actually seen it substantiated by any amount of evidence. In fact, I’ve heard elsewhere that the version of the rosary promoted by St. Dominic was most likely his own invention and not at all influenced by the East since he himself was never out far enough in the East to have encountered that tradition.

But who really knows? I think it’s a nice thought to believe that the rosary actually originated from the Rule.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I don’t know if the meditations are known to Orthodox, that was something which was added later in the west. Also, the ‘Ave Maria’ prayer is different, but some former Catholics might pray the Latin rite style.

It is not prayed communally in any Orthodox parish I am aware of. There may be some Orthodox parishes in Eastern Europe which do, but I am not familiar with any. This is why it is a tough question to answer precisely, it really is a private devotion.

For the record I have never seen a rosary for sale in any Orthodox parish bookstore.

Meditations in the Rule of the Theotokos are known in the Orthodox tradition, they are just not quite as fixed as those of the rosary in the Western tradition. St. Seraphim Zvezdinsky and the Russian Encyclopedia of Orthodoxy both provide lists of meditations on the life of the Theotokos and Christ for use in the PRotT. Others have also devised their own lists. St. Dmitri Rostov actually prayed the Latin rosary (in either Russian or Church Slavonic presumably) with the accompanying Latin list of meditations. I’ve also heard of other Orthodox here on this forum that pray the rosary regularly, if not daily.

There is also some precedence for a communal recitation of the PRotT/rosary. St. Seraphim of Sarov made it a Rule for the nuns of the Divyevo convent to pray the Rule as a community while walking around the convent grounds three times. The primary thing to remember, however, is that this Rule NEVER replaced the communal singing of the Divine Office as it some times does today in some Eastern Catholic parishes.

St. Tikhon’s Seminary bookstore used to sell olive wood rosaries that it promoted as olive wood chotkis. But they were set up exactly like a Latin rosary. I was just on their website this morning, however, and the olive wood “chotkis” are no longer available. Otherwise, I too have never seen a rosary for sale at an Orthodox parish bookstore, monastery bookstore, seminary bookstore, or any other sort of Orthodox bookstore.

 

[Hesychios]

Nor have I, but I thought the Orthodox Wiki entry for “Rosary” opened on an interesting note:

It is interesting. I don’t know how accurate the claim is.

But we always immediately have to make assumptions to make these little snippits of information fit. We know Marian devotion pretty much originated in the east and spread westward.

Worth a study, but it is my understanding that the rosary began as a repetition of PaterNosters. If that is true, then it would originated in the east as a repetition of 150 Our Fathers. And if that is true then the origin of the rosary is not associated with the cult of Mary in the east (nor in the west).

Now I can see the possibility of that, but I have never seen it discussed that I can recall.

I really don’t think of a repetition of 150 Our Fathers and a repetition of 150 Hail Mary’s as the same chaplet. One can grow out of the other perhaps, one can be created in imitation of the other, but they are not really the same chaplet, as far as I am concerned.

So what is meant by such a claim? Does it mean that the rosary first transformed into 150 Hail Mary’s in the east? I am open to correction but somehow I doubt that. If I should hazard a guess I would bet it first happened in the early to mid Meieval period in the caroligian empire somewhere.

It more complicated than it at first would seem.

Anyway, the distinction remains, it is not a liturgical practice anywhere, east or west it is a private practice, probably a response to the need of illiterate and semi-literate devout laity to express their heartfelt devotion and seek divine assistance or forgiveness.

 

[Hesychios]

Nor have I, but I thought the Orthodox Wiki entry for “Rosary” opened on an interesting note:

The rosary was originally an Orthodox form of prayer that was later adopted by the Roman Catholics. It has since fallen out of common practice in the [Orthodox] Church.

It is interesting. I don’t know how accurate the claim is.

But we always immediately have to make assumptions to make these little snippits of information fit. We know Marian devotion pretty much originated in the east and spread westward.

Worth a study, but it is my understanding that the rosary began as a repetition of PaterNosters. If that is true, then it would originated in the east as a repetition of 150 Our Fathers. And if that is true then the origin of the rosary is not associated with the cult of Mary in the east (nor in the west for that matter).

Now I can see the possibility of that, but I have never seen it discussed that I can recall.

I really don’t think of a repetition of 150 Our Fathers and a repetition of 150 Hail Mary’s as the same chaplet. One can grow out of the other perhaps, one can be created in imitation of the other, but they are not really the same chaplet, as far as I am concerned.

So what is meant by such a claim? Does it mean that the rosary first transformed into 150 Hail Mary’s in the east? I am open to correction but somehow I doubt that. (If I should hazard a guess I would bet it first happened in the early-to-mid Medieval period in the Carolingian empire somewhere.)

It’s more complicated than it at first would seem.

Anyway, the distinction remains, it is not a liturgical practice anywhere, east or west it is a private practice, probably a response to the need of illiterate and semi-literate devout laity to express their heartfelt devotion and seek divine assistance or forgiveness.

 

[Kook]

I wouldn’t think that an Easterner saying the Rosary would be any different than a Latin Rite Catholic saying the Jesus Prayer.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I wouldn’t think that an Easterner saying the Rosary would be any different than a Latin Rite Catholic saying the Jesus Prayer.

In some ways it actually is, but the differences are quite minimal and easily dismissible. The Jesus Prayer has actually existed in some form in the West from the earliest days of the Church as well as in the East. One must remember that the specific formula of the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me [a sinner]) didn’t really become the “canonical form” of the prayer until some time in the 14th Century. And even after that form became the norm it was widely recognized that that wasn’t the only form. The great mystics of the East, such as Sts. Ignatios and Kallistos Xanthopoulos and St. Theophan the Recluse, admitted that the essential element of the Jesus Prayer was simply the repetition of the Holy Name. According to Met. Kallistos Ware, Sts. Ignatios and Kallistos recommend that monks simply say “My Jesus” during times when, for whatever reason, they are unable to focus on the longer form of the prayer. St. Seraphim of Sarov recommends simply saying “Lord, have mercy,” a prayer that could easily be considered a form of the Jesus Prayer.

So in this sense the Jesus Prayer is really nothing more or less than the deliberate and conscious repetition of the Holy Name. Western saints, such as Bernard of Clairvaux, Francis of Assisi, Bonaventure, etc., etc., etc., all had very deep devotion to the Holy Name and called upon that name frequently.

Now, although the (Dominican) rosary is peculiar in its current form to the Latin Church, the Byzantine East has known its own devotion to the Virgin, and even has their own unique “rosary” to her that predates the Dominican rosary. This “rosary” is known as the “Prayer Rule of the Theotokos.” In its original form it was simply 150 repetitions of the Eastern “Hail Mary” (Hail, Virgin Theotokos, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, for you have borne (Jesus Christ) the Saviour of our souls). Later “mysteries” to meditate on were added, and in some cases certain Russian Orthodox saints simply adopted the Latin/Dominican rosary.

One of the primary differences between the Eastern/Byzantine “rosary” and the Western/Latin/Dominican rosary is that in the East it never really took on a static canonical form, but exists in multiple forms, with or without “mysteries” to meditate on, and even with different “mysteries” according to which version of the Rule of the Theotokos you pray. This, in many ways, reflects the development of the Jesus Prayer in the East and West. In the East it eventually took on a static canonical form that - although we are not bound to use this form - has become the most widespread and popular form of the Jesus Prayer. In the West, however, this Prayer has continued to maintain a great deal of variety and variation from one person to another. It is interesting to note that while the Eastern “canonical” form of the prayer is starting to become quite popular in the West, various Eastern scholars and mystics have been clamoring for a restoration of the original “freedom of usage” with regards to the Jesus Prayer. Sts. Theophan the Recluse and Seraphim of Sarov, for example, both recommend folks use different forms of the prayer not only according to their state in life, but also according to the time of day as well as what one was doing at any given moment. Fr. Lev Gillet (aka “A Monk of the Eastern Church”) was very much an advocate of simply repeating the name “Jesus” slowly and reverently instead of reciting the entire canonical form of the Jesus Prayer. And Met. Kallistos Ware has also encouraged this greater variation in a number of his talks and writings.