Vatican II, the Laity and the 2012 Election

[Tighty_Whitey]

I have been thinking of the role of the Laity in the post Vatican II Chuch in the context of this election. I believe that several events have occured that highlight the importance of this election to the life of the Church and to the very notion of Religious Freedom in the U.S.A. I am also aware that the Laity is being more relied upon then ever to assist the Church.

I am sorta rambling, but I guess my question is: Will this election give us an opportunity to learn more about the health of our Church in the U.S. then about the political party comes out ahead?

 

[JM3]

Will this election give us an opportunity to learn more about the health of our Church in the U.S.?

no. I fear much more will happen.

 

[foolishmortal]

We are the sheep; not the shepherd. That we should shepherd the bishop is an abomination. We can defend ourselves better than the real animal, but it’s not our role. The next highest shepherd has a duty to straighten out or, if that has no effect, send away lazy lower-level shepherds and, definitely, wolves in shepherd’s clothing (while firing wolves in sheep’s clothing, if laity). If we have all these new seminarians, we should have some ready to receive Holy Orders, so that good priests, like Fr. Pavone, can become bishops to replace lazy bishops. We proverbial sheep need the wolves out of our to better do our duty and follow the shepherds. We have so many confused ones, due to false ecumenism, because our shepherding system just writes letters and shake their fingers at wolves that don’t care or don’t feel up to the challenge. We don’t need them judged; just straightened out or replaced by those who are up to the challenge. These orthodox, crusading-against-all-social-evils bishops need to make sure those evils aren’t being taught or suggested to their charges by other charges, as they take on problem-politicians of whatever political leanings. If they don’t, how do they answer “You and what army?” They should have gotten a hint to do that in 2008, when 54% of Catholics voted for him, but, because they haven’t taken off the velvet glove in handling those under them spreading error, we still have more young Catholics leaning toward Obama, who is really working against their beloved ecumenism with his ultimatum of treat your own kind or get taxed.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

We are the sheep; not the shepherd. That we should shepherd the bishop is an abomination.

I got the impression that the question inherent in the OP is suggesting just the opposite - that is, now that the Shepherds have [finally] spoken definitively, will we follow?

 

[foolishmortal]

My point is why should anyone take them seriously? Our reality in the parishes is teachers who don’t seem to really believe the faith of the school (moreso in some Catholic high schools and universities), priests who yuk it up at improper places in the liturgy or other inappropriate familiarities, religious in plain-clothes believing who knows what other than “the social Gospel”, eucharistic ministers who don’t care who receives Jesus, etc. Abomination was not the best word; it’s a perversion , like mothers being the spiritual head of the family. We’re not sheep, due to some lesser intelligence than the clergy, but because we’re busy doing our jobs and/or going to school and/or raising kids. Most of us didn’t get 7 or so years of theology, philosophy, pastoral care of souls and, probably, fields related to the upkeep of Church property, financial and otherwise. It’s fine to give them support, as they draw demonic attention, based on how much glory they’re giving God or, in some sad cases, serving the other, but the idea of role reversal in perverse and impractical. If they want to say to the administration, or any future one oppressing our rights, and one could be right wing, too, they (whoever is the most responsible clergy) need to sweep house, whether it be the parish, the diocese or the world (the Pope’s see).

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I got the impression that the question inherent in the OP is suggesting just the opposite - that is, now that the Shepherds have [finally] spoken definitively, will we follow?

I think you have understood a good part of what I’m trying to flesh out. The laity, will either follow or we won’t. Certainly the Church will have instant consequences if we do not. I have little doubt that the Church will have to sell its hospitals and many other steps will have to follow to that will reshape the role of the Church in the U.S. If we do follow then I strongly believe it can be hailed as a victory for religious freedom.

But I guess what I’m trying to understand is if we don’t follow what can be said about Vatican II and its discussion of the role of the Laity. How might the Church’s view of the Laity change if we do, or we don’t follow?

 

[KP3243]

It may address one of the problems since Vatican II that Catholics for three generations have been poorly catechized in this country. We can’t defend the faith the way we need to against the modern world. We can hardly explain it to other Christians let alone the secular world.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

But I guess what I’m trying to understand is if we don’t follow what can be said about Vatican II and its discussion of the role of the Laity. How might the Church’s view of the Laity change if we do, or we don’t follow?

The laity always had an obligation to be obedient to the Church and live according to its precepts, which we learn from our bishops directly and through their clergy. Likewise, we always had a duty to uphold and defend the Church, together with the clergy, religious and episcopacy. Vatican II did not invent a role for the laity, but rather re-emphasized it in modern context.

If we don’t follow now, it is likely more a general indictment on the state of the American Catholic Church and its membership. Mention of sundry issues along with critique of Church leaders has already been put forth here. It’s a question as to whether we blame the status quo on what has transpired in the near 50 years since the Second Vatican Council was called, or if we reflect on our own life in the Church in the present with an eye to the future.