Vatican II: The Vision Lives On

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In my participation in this forum, it has become apparent that many younger Catholics in this forum, those born post Vatican II,
have a negative attitude toward Vatican II, and that some how, Vatican II is responsible for the Collapse in the Liturgy, as one thread titled it.

I happen to come across this article, which gives a good insight on Vatican II, and why Pope John XXIII called for it.

I myself, never knew that the Vatican II Council, had a theme, until I read it in this article.
The theme of the Council was aggiornamento, which literally means “getting up to today.” The Church was being urged to “update” itself.
The entire text can be read here;

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0393.asp

God Bless

Jim
 
I would submit to you that your observation may not be entirely the case at all I was born the year that Musicam Sacram was promulgated.

The sense that I have gotten is that we aren’t complaining about the Second Vatican Council. We respect and accept the documents and the legimate authoritative intepretation of same by the Holy See. However, what is the glarind red flag is something called the Spirit of Vatican II, which is the polar opposite of what the Council did and said.

It’s not the Second Vatican Council that is at fault; rather, the blame lies on the shoulders of those who went along with the alleged spirit and failed to read what the documents actually said.

Pope Benedict made that clear in his autobiography. As late as 1997, he was calling for an authentic interpretation of the Council. Now, as Pope, he’s having to do just that.
 
I thought the theme was:

“Let’s capitulate to the spirit of the world, muddy Catholic teaching in ambiguous terms, praise false religions, and just wait for the new springtime to begin!”

Bringing the Church “up-to-date” is a destructive idea which eliminates the continuity of tradition. Our role is to simply pass on what we have received, not tinker with it to appease modern sensibilities.
 
Thanks Jim,

“The light of Christ on the face of the Church.”

If we all could just remember to apply this!
 
I would submit to you that your observation may not be entirely the case at all I was born the year that Musicam Sacram was promulgated.

The sense that I have gotten is that we aren’t complaining about the Second Vatican Council. We respect and accept the documents and the legimate authoritative intepretation of same by the Holy See. However, what is the glarind red flag is something called the Spirit of Vatican II, which is the polar opposite of what the Council did and said.

It’s not the Second Vatican Council that is at fault; rather, the blame lies on the shoulders of those who went along with the alleged spirit and failed to read what the documents actually said.

Pope Benedict made that clear in his autobiography. As late as 1997, he was calling for an authentic interpretation of the Council. Now, as Pope, he’s having to do just that.
What’s ironic is that so many of these people who are said to be finding fault with Vatican II, actually cite the documents of Vatican II in their arguments for an authentic carrying-out of Vatican II. How can this be? :eek:
 
I love the documents produced by Vatican II. In fact, I love them so much, I can’t wait to see them actually implemented. 😃
 
What’s ironic is that so many of these people who are said to be finding fault with Vatican II, actually cite the documents of Vatican II in their arguments. How can this be? :eek:
What I find fault with is the Spirit of Vatican II, not with what the Counil actually said.

The big bone of contention is how these documents have been interpreted. For example, someone will claim that Vatican II said that the priest should celebrate the entire Mass facing the people. That is not the case at all. The Holy Father makes a point of that in his book and in the foreword that he wrote to Fr. Lang’s book, “Turning Towards the Lord.”

The Holy Father experienced the msinterpretation first-hand when he returned to Tubingen. It wa very disconcerting to him. He details it in his book, “Milestones.” Interestingly enough, Fr. Ratzinger was identified with the progressives; however, having experienced the gross misrepresentations of the Counci, something changed. He was a strong supporter of the liturgical movement that Msgr. Guardini Romano and others had begun. However, when the movement shifted gears and turned into something that wasn’t supposed to be, the young Fr. Ratzinger saw that things were moving in the wrong direction, contrary to what the Council had done. He lived through the Council. He knew what was said and written.

That is why I trust Pope Benedict’s intepretation of the documents and his critical commentary on the “spirit” of Vatican II. We have to draw the line between the spirit and what the documents actually said.
 
In my participation in this forum, it has become apparent that many younger Catholics in this forum, those born post Vatican II, have a negative attitude toward Vatican II, and that some how, Vatican II is responsible for the Collapse in the Liturgy, as one thread titled it.
That thread is not about how “Vatican II is responsible for the Collapse in the Liturgy”. The latest posts in that thread make that point clear.
I happen to come across this article, which gives a good insight on Vatican II, and why Pope John XXIII called for it.
I like this speech of Pope John XXIII from October 11, 1962, opening the Council. Here are some choice excerpts:
Illuminated by the light of this Council, the Church – we confidently trust – will become greater in spiritual riches and gaining the strength of new energies therefrom, she will look to the future without fear. In fact, by bringing herself up to date where required, and by the wise organization of mutual co-operation, the Church will make men, families, and peoples really turn their minds to heavenly things.
and
The greatest concern of the Ecumenical Council is this: that the sacred deposit of Christian doctrine should be guarded and taught more efficaciously. That doctrine embraces the whole of man, composed as he is of body and soul. … The salient point of this Council is not … a discussion of one article or another of the fundamental doctrine of the Church which has repeatedly been taught by the Fathers and by ancient and modern theologians, and which is presumed to be well known and familiar to all.

For this a Council was not necessary. But from the renewed, serene, and tranquil adherence to all the teaching of the Church in its entirety and preciseness, as it still shines forth in the Acts of the Council of Trent and First Vatican Council, the Christian, Catholic, and apostolic spirit of the whole world expects a step forward toward a doctrinal penetration and a formation of consciousness in faithful and perfect conformity to the authentic doctrine, which, however, should be studied and expounded through the methods of research and through the literary forms of modern thought. The substance of the ancient doctrine of the deposit of faith is one thing, and the way in which it is presented is another. And it is the latter that must be taken into great consideration with patience if necessary, everything being measured in the forms and proportions of a Magisterium which is predominantly pastoral in character.
As for the article you posted, I’m curious about this part, under the heading "What did the Council achieve?"Lay ministry. Since the Council, the expanding roles of laymen and laywomen are evident in the explosion of lay ministries—whether we are speaking in terms of eucharistic ministers or of laypersons working as administrators in diocesan offices. These ministries, by and large, have become an accepted part of Catholic life today.The Council said very little about expanding liturgical ministries to the laity. In the documents I’ve read, I think the only concrete mention of the matter was in Apostolicam Actuositatem n. 24: “Finally, the hierarchy entrusts to the laity certain functions which are more closely connected with pastoral duties, such as the teaching of Christian doctrine, certain liturgical actions, and the care of souls.” These liturgical actions were not, as far as I can see, explicitly defined by the Council.

I hope extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion aren’t becoming “an accepted part of Catholic life”. They have a very specific ministry to fulfill, and once we have more faithful men responding to God’s call to priesthood, we will no longer need this “common emergency” ministry.
 
What’s ironic is that so many of these people who are said to be finding fault with Vatican II, actually cite the documents of Vatican II in their arguments for an authentic carrying-out of Vatican II.
I’m pretty sure you get a demerit for the proper use of irony. But yes, I agree, if I was opposed to Vatican II (or its documents) on principle, I wouldn’t quote them so much when talking about their authentic implementation!
 
I’m pretty sure you get a demerit for the proper use of irony. But yes, I agree, if I was opposed to Vatican II (or its documents) on principle, I wouldn’t quote them so much when talking about their authentic implementation!
Oh no, a demerit on my permanent record! :eek:
 
It appears those of you who have attacked my post, didn’t bother to read the article I linked.

Oh well!

Jim
 
In my participation in this forum, it has become apparent that many younger Catholics in this forum, those born post Vatican II,
have a negative attitude toward Vatican II, and that some how, Vatican II is responsible for the Collapse in the Liturgy, as one thread titled it.

I happen to come across this article, which gives a good insight on Vatican II, and why Pope John XXIII called for it.

I myself, never knew that the Vatican II Council, had a theme, until I read it in this article.

The entire text can be read here;

americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0393.asp

God Bless

Jim
While it’s inspiring at times to embrace the words of a member of the clergy, it should be noted that the site you’ve linked to is not a member of our recent and infamous “Hook Line and Sinker Club”.

Here is a review of that site and it’s “tendencies”.
catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=163

I like John XXIII. But the author of this article, IMHO, is pretty liberal in his assumptions of the good Pope’s intentions.

Feel free to disagree.
 
While it’s inspiring at times to embrace the words of a member of the clergy, it should be noted that the site you’ve linked to is not a member of our recent and infamous “Hook Line and Sinker Club”.

Here is a review of that site and it’s “tendencies”.
catholicculture.org/reviews/view.cfm?recnum=163

I like John XXIII. But the author of this article, IMHO, is pretty liberal in his assumptions of the good Pope’s intentions.

Feel free to disagree.
Please, lets not make this a debate about who’s website is more credible.

If you have a problem with the some specific statement in the article, then feel free to show the error.

Otherwise, don’t trash the thread.

Jim
 
Please, lets not make this a debate about who’s website is more credible.

If you have a problem with the some specific statement in the article, then feel free to show the error.

Otherwise, don’t trash the thread.

Jim
Not trashing the thread or you. Just a heads up. 🤷

I’ve posted links to sites with content that flirts with heresy in the past. It’s been pointed out to me, and I don’t do it anymore. I’m glad it was pointed out.
 
Not trashing the thread or you. Just a heads up. 🤷

I’ve posted links to sites with content that flirts with heresy in the past. It’s been pointed out to me, and I don’t do it anymore. I’m glad it was pointed out.
You’re presenting links to websites which are neo-conservative. Their pointing at another Catholic Website and condemning it, is a problem from a Christian perspective. I’ve never seen Catholic websites like American Catholic, pointing toward other websites and warning Catholics to stay out of them. I boggles my mind how a Catholic website could do such a thing. 🤷

There is no heresy at American Catholic as you suggest. Until a Bishop declares them such and shuts them down, I would advise that you refrain from making such accusations.

Jim
 
I_Believe,

It seems really strange that you would publicly denounce JimR’s link, yet promote a questionable link of your own. :rolleyes: Your signature failed to list the following sentence from its blogspot, which I believe tells its own story to those who have eyes to see.
He seems ready to “let us do the experiment of Tradition” as Archbishop Lefebvre asked so many years ago.
Now that we know where you are coming from, it is easy to see why you would consider any other opinion as “flirting with heresy.” :eek:
Your blogspot:
We refuse on the other hand, and have always refused, to follow the Rome of Neo-Modernist and Neo-Protestant tendencies, which became clearly manifest during the Second Vatican Council, and after the Council, in reforms which issued from it.
 
I must admit that for a brief while I was soured towards Vatican II - but I think it might give insight as to why some people born after the council might “blame” it for the “collapse of the liturgy” or “all that is wrong in the church today”:

When I was older and finally started looking at and discovering what the church taught for myself - mostly by looking at older books and sources like the much maligned Baltimore Catechism - I felt more than a little betrayed. I’d never really been given a clear idea what a sacrament was, or what the “real presence” (a term I’d never heard before) was. I noticed that those born and educated largely before Vatican II had a far deeper understanding of what we as Catholics believe despite the supposedly elementary rote memorization they had had to endure. In fact, what I knew about my religion at all mostly came from my parents, so naturally I figured things must have been better before the council in some ways.

I’ve talked to others my age who, despite lots of religious education, were never given much of anything concrete, other than a vague notion that Jesus loves us, but doesn’t want us to have sex. It’s really no surprise that some of my generation would be a little peeved and feel like it missed out on something.

For a while, people born before the council seemed to me to be very lucky. They got the advantage of a more rigorous education in the faith, and the full-on exposure to our cultural heritage in the form of the Latin mass, and then were given the chance to taste the “freedom” of the post Vatican II era as well. Those of us born afterwards were given mushy Catechism and dated 1970’s liturgy while being told how lucky we were that we never had to endure the horrors of the pre-conciliar church.

You eventually figure out that while the pre-Vatican II era had its big problems, it certainly wasn’t as horrifically awful as the opening remarks of the article linked imply (“You have no idea how it was back then, before Vatican II…” sounds more than a little like “When I was your age we had to walk to school barefoot uphill both ways in the blizzard while fighting off wild bears and carrying ninety pounds of bricks”) and you start to think that maybe we got more of a reaction than a reform.

I’ve gotten over my brief “blame Vatican II” phase, but I still like Latin and traditional liturgical practices and still prefer the simplicity and clarity of pre-Vatican II educational sources that act as a good foundation for more in-depth learning. I’m glad things aren’t too rigid and strict and got loosened a bit, but I think there’s a lot of valuable things we can mine from the past to make the future brighter.
 
I’ve never seen Catholic websites like American Catholic, pointing toward other websites and warning Catholics to stay out of them. I boggles my mind how a Catholic website could do such a thing.
You find it difficult to believe that a Catholic web site would warn Catholics to avoid web sites that are presenting dangerous or heterodox theology or spirituality? Why? I think CatholicCulture.org performs a valuable service.
There is no heresy at American Catholic as you suggest. Until a Bishop declares them such and shuts them down, I would advise that you refrain from making such accusations.
Well, let us look at the examples with CatholicCulture.org presents.

"Articles undermining the Real Presence"
“In the Middle Ages … the Eucharist … became something quite different from what it had been in the beginning. From being the action of people, it became an act of God coming down among God’s people to be adored.” and “If you look at the theology of the Eucharist that emerged from the Council of Trent (a theology that persisted down to the Second Vatican Council), it is clear that its approach to the Eucharist was that of medieval theologians.” (Source) The first quote makes it sound like the Eucharist is something the people do, when it is really something that Jesus (the High Priest, acting through the ministerial priesthood) does by the Holy Spirit, working upon the gifts which God the Father has given us and we give back to Him. The Eastern Catholics (and the Orthodox) call their Eucharistic service the Divine Liturgy: the work of God, not (primarily) of the people. (The quote also avoids using a male pronoun for “God”, resulting in deliberate constructions like “an act of God coming down among God’s people”.) The second quote implies that the theology of the Eucharist defined at the Council of Trent is no longer active, or has been superseded by Vatican II; that is certainly not the case. Is any of this heresy? I don’t think so, but it is need of clarification and is not entirely accurate.

"Richard Rohr was a regular columnist in the Every Day Catholic section, and is still featured in the archives."
Richard Rohr “is a public dissenter of Humanae Vitae”. One of the articles they quote reads: “There is nothing to be afraid of in the risen Jesus. We have in him the perfect icon of a God who is safe and a universe that is safe. We have a God who does not blame, does not punish, does not threaten, does not dominate. We have a God who breathes forgiveness. The whole biblical tradition has been moving to this moment where God is identified with universal forgiveness.” (Source) If you read the Book of Revelation, you will see that the risen Jesus is indeed the King of the universe, of the physical and spiritual. There is manifest “fear of the Lord” in that book! Jesus does “threaten” the lukewarm churches; he promises “punishment” if they do not repent. And the term “universal forgiveness” needs a lot of clarification, because it’s only a small jump from “universal forgiveness” to “universal salvation”. The term needs a solid definition to avoid being, well, heresy.

"Features well-known dissidents"
They provide four examples; three of them are:
  • Fr. Richard Sparks: dissenter from Humanae Vitae, author of the explicit sex education program Growing in Love who has made blasphemous and sexually provocative statements about Jesus and Mary Magdalene and about the relationship between Mary and St. Joseph at Cardinal Roger Mahony’s west coast religious education conference
  • Fr. Richard P. McBrien: dissenting theologian who calls into question the virginal conception of Jesus, the perpetual virginity of Mary, and claims Jesus did not establish the Catholic Church. He also supports Call to Action.
  • Sr. Elizabeth Johnson, C.S.J.: Radical feminist favoring women’s ordination, author of She Who Is, a feminist interpretation of God that promotes pantheism
 
It seems really strange that you would publicly denounce JimR’s link, yet promote a questionable link of your own.
The religious order which owns that blog has recently been reconciled to the Church and “regularized”. They are no longer affiliated with the SSPX.
Your signature failed to list the following sentence from its blogspot, which I believe tells its own story to those who have eyes to see: He seems ready to “let us do the experiment of Tradition” as Archbishop Lefebvre asked so many years ago.
The request to “let us to do the experiment of Tradition” is not a heretical statement, although the man who said it committed a schismatic act by ordaining bishops without permission of the Holy See. You will need to make your case a little stronger.
Now that we know where you are coming from, it is easy to see why you would consider any other opinion as “flirting with heresy”: We refuse on the other hand, and have always refused, to follow the Rome of Neo-Modernist and Neo-Protestant tendencies, which became clearly manifest during the Second Vatican Council, and after the Council, in reforms which issued from it.
I do not think it is unreasonable to say there were people involved in the Second Vatican Council who wanted to “hijack” its true Spirit and spin a new “Spirit of Vatican II” contrary to the actual documents of the Council. The quote you highlighted does not say that the tendencies were “clearly manifest[ed]” in the documents of the Council. It says it was manifest during the Council and after it, in particular in the post-Conciliar reforms. As another thread has established, Pope Benedict XVI has also commented on the discontinuity between the Second Vatican Council (in the history of the Church) and the liturgical reforms which followed it. The mentality surrounding the novel liturgical reform might be described as “protestant” and “modernist” (depending on your definitions). Again, I ask you to make your case a little stronger, rather than just “letting the quote speak for itself”.
 
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