Vatican II was a good thing

[Warrenton]

Due to the latter, one could argue that the lack of respect for marriage was built into the institution.

This is something of a stretch. The laws for kings was always different from the laws for folks.

As a result those people left may have done so less out of protest of Church teaching, and more due to just wanting to protest and be anti-establishment in general.

Many of those who left were not anti establishment. The losses occurred across the board of demographics.

Ironically a couple of decades later, the Church is now counter-cultural and anti-establishment.

For that matter, the establishment has become anti-establishment.

Fascinating stuff, this social science business.

It is.

The interesting thing is that the council was completed by an expert in Canon Law. A lawyer, especially one as educated as Pope Paul VI, would have quite the attention to detail.

Expertise does not automatically confer wisdom.

After 1950, the developed nations were in a very optimistic mood. This cut across the iron curtain, even. There was a belief that corporate action could solve a range of problems, from poverty, to injustice, to disease.

In hindsight, we can see that much of the optimism was really an emotional response to the relief at not having completely obliterated civilisation in the war.

By the mid 60s, the inevitable questioning had set in. This was unfortunate timing for many ventures, ranging from Viet Nam to decolonialism to Vatican 2.

I like how you relate Humanae Vitae to Vatican 2, although it was not part of the council. I also relate HV to Vatican 2, and it is my favorite thing to come out of that period, even more so than the founding of the seminary at Econe.

A good lawyer, even if he has failed to structure the case properly, ought to know enough about trials to feel the drift of the jury. By 1971, Pope Paul saw where the direction the tide was running, and he was deeply concerned. He promulgated Humanae Vitae, which took a lot of courage. At the time, outsiders saw it as a total sell out, or rather, they said the Church had shown her true colours once again, despite the grand effort to recast herself as a laid back, non judgmental institution.

There was a lot of good work that was done at Vatican 2 - Brother JR can fill us in regarding the needed restoration of the rights of orders and societies. Whether the suppression of the tridentine mass was an order of Vatican 2 or not, perhaps we can agree that it “resulted from” the council. This was unfortunate, and carried with it many other destructive practices.

Whether the Church would have been “better” without the council is impossible to say - the Orthodox held no council; are they doing “better” than Catholics? Not really. Listen to the sermons of Father Seraphim Rose for the view from the east. The problems are just different, though related.

A hundred years from now, what we do today will answer the question whether Vatican 2 was a good thing as much as what they did in 1964, or 1975, or 1980.

 

[Warrenton]

We have a church barely discernible from the protestants with no leadership. God Bless you all

While I share your emotional response, we Catholics are far from a spent force.

“Though much is taken, much abides.”

Like the Jews of old, we can rebuild our churches, read the ancient prayers to the people, entreat the mercy of the Lord anew.

Keep the faith!

 

[Melchior_1]

This is something of a stretch. The laws for kings was always different from the laws for folks.

The folks followed him and his example for how long now? Once the king died they could have started following the Catholic example of marriage.

Many of those who left were not anti establishment. The losses occurred across the board of demographics.

The people who left;

• Anti-establishment folks caught up in the wave of the 70’s.
• Folks who thought the Church went too far.
• Folks who thought the Church didn’t go far enough.
• Random others.

For that matter, the establishment has become anti-establishment.

Very much agreed.

Expertise does not automatically confer wisdom.

Also very much agreed, but Pope Paul VI had some wisdom, which you’ll actually prove yourself later on.

After 1950, the developed nations were in a very optimistic mood. This cut across the iron curtain, even. There was a belief that corporate action could solve a range of problems, from poverty, to injustice, to disease.

In hindsight, we can see that much of the optimism was really an emotional response to the relief at not having completely obliterated civilisation in the war.

By the mid 60s, the inevitable questioning had set in. This was unfortunate timing for many ventures, ranging from Viet Nam to decolonialism to Vatican 2.

This ties into the first part we were discussing about the “time of protests”. I agree, pretty much anything “The Man” did during that time period was doomed, in a sense.

I like how you relate Humanae Vitae to Vatican 2, although it was not part of the council. I also relate HV to Vatican 2, and it is my favorite thing to come out of that period, even more so than the founding of the seminary at Econe.

It used to be my favorite thing out of the time frame of the Council. Further research and study has had something else jump up to at least make it a tie, but I do love HV.

A good lawyer, even if he has failed to structure the case properly, ought to know enough about trials to feel the drift of the jury. By 1971, Pope Paul saw where the direction the tide was running, and he was deeply concerned. He promulgated Humanae Vitae, which took a lot of courage. At the time, outsiders saw it as a total sell out, or rather, they said the Church had shown her true colours once again, despite the grand effort to recast herself as a laid back, non judgmental institution.

Here’s the wisdom of Pope Paul Vi. I cannot stress how much I love what you wrote here. This is right on the money, and with your permission I’ll flagrantly plagiarize this for a future talk or work it into my apolgetics arsenal. Simply fantastic, all in one paragraph.

There was a lot of good work that was done at Vatican 2 - Brother JR can fill us in regarding the needed restoration of the rights of orders and societies.

This is what I was talking about earlier about how something jumped up to at least tie HV. As I continued my discernment and research into secular orders, I started looking at the charisms, Rules, and rights of orders and societies. I read several of Brother JR’s posts, and used them as springboard for further reading elsewhere. Those of us who practice the spirituality of the orders know without question that going back to the vision of the founders absolutely needed to happen. An argument easily could have been made the Church would have been much worse off if it didn’t. If this was the only thing decided upon at Vatican II, the Council still would have been worth the effort spent. God bless Pope Paul VI for this, and God bless Blessed John Paul II for enforcing it.

Whether the suppression of the tridentine mass was an order of Vatican 2 or not, perhaps we can agree that it “resulted from” the council. This was unfortunate, and carried with it many other destructive practices.

Grossly unfortunate, and possibly a case of people throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I’m in full favor of people being able to attend the Extraordinary Form, provided the priests have the training to do so.

Whether the Church would have been “better” without the council is impossible to say - the Orthodox held no council; are they doing “better” than Catholics? Not really. Listen to the sermons of Father Seraphim Rose for the view from the east. The problems are just different, though related.

Very astute of you to draw the parallels between the Western Church and the Orthodox, which I’ll have to do more reading on. If what you’re saying is true, then that lends credence to it more a societal shift rather than items that came from the Council. I will say that if the only time period that getting orders/societies to go back to the vision of their founders was Vatican II, then the Church would be far worse without the Council.

 

[passer_by]

Interestingly enough, without Vatican II one could also say that based on societal changes people would have continued to engage in the reckless behaviors we see today, but they would have stayed within the Church. So sure, we would have fuller pews, just with even less devout people. And with even more less practicing people in the pews, even more people would grow cynical and proceed to leave the Church for a different reason - that the Pope bailed on them and the Chair of Peter being empty (which already happened in some cases, but one could say that they would happen again in larger quantities in the scenario I described).

Just to be clear before I say what I want to say, I am totally against the idea that VII shouldn’t have happened. I think VII was fine, but the leaders of the church should have been more prudent and wise in explaining the teachings of VII and putting it in to action. I think that is what was missing and lead us to the current predicament.

So now to the actual point.

I think it is important to understand that sometimes if one remains in the church, it is much more likely that at some point he/she will become a true devotee. So while one might just attend mass without a well formed faith, I think that is beneficial than not attending mass at all. One might still receive the graces from listening to the word of God. Who knows… one day… the ear might catch something that will stick and make the soul hungry for the truth.

In that sense, I think having fuller pews would have been better than what we see today.

 

[Mike30]

I have to say that as of yet not much good has come from it. Perhaps one day, after the dust settles, but as of now, 56 years later, there isn’t much good at all that can be directly tied to the Council. I am not saying the Council in and of itself was a bad thing, but the results that have emerged have ben less than encouraging and I would hope not at all what the architects expected or predicted.

At least I hope not…

 

[Tighty_Whitey]

I have to say that as of yet not much good has come from it. Perhaps one day, after the dust settles, but as of now, 56 years later, there isn’t much good at all that can be directly tied to the Council. I am not saying the Council in and of itself was a bad thing, but the results that have emerged have ben less than encouraging and I would hope not at all what the architects expected or predicted.

At least I hope not…

I can’t help but view this comment as terribly short sighted. I also find the lack of recognition, in this thread, of the context in which VII happened baffling. The world had just ended two wars that cost the lives of tens of millions and the destruction of entire nations coupled with the creation of weapons mass destruction and somehow we have the luxury of saying “nothing good has come of it”. This begs the question what good came from the Church prior to VII if the result was WWI and WWII?

As the article posted by the OP here addresses the purpose of VII was to get the message of the churches teaching out. This purpose is born from a recognition that the Church had failed in this mission.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The period of social transition had a great deal to do with the change. There’s no right or wrong about V-II. It was time for the church to turn outward, not inward with a 1950 theology. In fact had that continued to happen the loss would have been much greater in the 60-s and 70’s.

Basically your comparing stats from post WW-II to an insane period of time in the 60’s and early 70’s. In that period of social transition what good would it have done to remain in a 40’s-50’s mode. By 62 God was already being banned in public schools, by 73 abortion was legal. The entire period was Vietnam in color daily on TV.

Gary

 

[Mike30]

I can’t help but view this comment as terribly short sighted. I also find the lack of recognition, in this thread, of the context in which VII happened baffling. The world had just ended two wars that cost the lives of tens of millions and the destruction of entire nations coupled with the creation of weapons mass destruction and somehow we have the luxury of saying “nothing good has come of it”. This begs the question what good came from the Church prior to VII if the result was WWI and WWII?

As the article posted by the OP here addresses the purpose of VII was to get the message of the churches teaching out. This purpose is born from a recognition that the Church had failed in this mission.

I would submit that it is really no better today thanit was then in getting the message out… We still have wars, genocide on a mass scale, international terrorism, not to mention the problems that plague the Church today etc. Implying that WW1 and WW2 were the result of the Church not getting its message out, I think is hopelssly naive and one sided in the extreme.

I don’t believe I said that nothing good came out of it. I said not much good has come out yet. And not much has.

As far as most articles of the type pointed out, they represent for the most part personal opinions. And personal opinions, even scholarly and educated opinions still represent opinions. Not facts for the most part.

 

[Mike30]

The period of social transition had a great deal to do with the change. There’s no right or wrong about V-II. **It was time for the church to turn outward, not inward with a 1950 theology. In fact had that continued to happen the loss would have been much greater in the 60-s and 70’s. **
Basically your comparing stats from post WW-II to an insane period of time in the 60’s and early 70’s. In that period of social transition what good would it have done to remain in a 40’s-50’s mode. By 62 God was already being banned in public schools, by 73 abortion was legal. The entire period was Vietnam in color daily on TV.

Gary

Now this to me seems short sighted and prejuduced. What proof do you have in saying this?

Or is this just your own opinion?

 

[Simon62]

Just one of many thoughts I have on the results of VII, as an artist, designer and sculptor growing up in the aftermath of the council, I still to this day have a deep sadness of the tragic iconoclasm performed in so many of our lovely churches. The time and effort, not to mention the love that went into making the beautiful interiors of our churches were stripped of their splendour, richly carved high altars destroyed by jack-hammers, tabernacles being moved from their centrality and the like, it was akin to a mini Tudor reformation! Vatican II itself did not actually require this to happen, but was visibly silent when overzealous bishops got suddenly carried away with personal ecumenical softeners. Too often I enter a Catholic church and lament on what has happened. The bishops should have remembered in Exodus how God Himself instructed Moses on the details, the decoration, the colours, proportions, the most expensive of materials in making the ark of the covenant, the tabernacle, priest’s vestments, and so on. Our tabernacles have our God Himself truly present in them and so all the more reason for the best in artistry, decor and materials in our churches, God demands it of where He resides on this earth. Unfortunately most of these desecrated churches will never be returned to their former glory, and don’t tell me the new interiors are better, they are not. Go read Exodus for instructions on the decorative arts! End of rant.
God bless
Simon

 

[mro]

Just one of many thoughts I have on the results of VII, as an artist, designer and sculptor growing up in the aftermath of the council, I still to this day have a deep sadness of the tragic iconoclasm performed in so many of our lovely churches. The time and effort, not to mention the love that went into making the beautiful interiors of our churches were stripped of their splendour, richly carved high altars destroyed by jack-hammers, tabernacles being moved from their centrality and the like, it was akin to a mini Tudor reformation! Vatican II itself did not actually require this to happen, but was visibly silent when overzealous bishops got suddenly carried away with personal ecumenical softeners. Too often I enter a Catholic church and lament on what has happened. The bishops should have remembered in Exodus how God Himself instructed Moses on the details, the decoration, the colours, proportions, the most expensive of materials in making the ark of the covenant, the tabernacle, priest’s vestments, and so on. Our tabernacles have our God Himself truly present in them and so all the more reason for the best in artistry, decor and materials in our churches, God demands it of where He resides on this earth. Unfortunately most of these desecrated churches will never be returned to their former glory, and don’t tell me the new interiors are better, they are not. Go read Exodus for instructions on the decorative arts! End of rant.
God bless
Simon

Dude God hates extravagance and riches… Need I refer you to the vows of poverty many people in our Church take… Read the parable of the rich young man… Read how the disciples sold everything they had before they started their ministries and travels…

No I think our Churches should be simple, basic, and plain… God knows what’s in our hearts Simon… God doesn’t want us to be worshiping in Gold plated Churches and Chapels… Keep it simple man

 

[Hadrianus]

I’d say the problem is that the Council itself was a colossal waste of time which distracted the Church from more serious issues. For example. the Pill was introduced in July of 1960 and it took 8 years before Rome commented on it. By that time moral theologians and bishops,acting on the assumption that it was to be approved, all over the world had told people it was okay.
First to alter the mass radically, so that people who believed that what was once so sacred it had to be in an ancient language and that the host could only be touched by the priests, indeed even the sacred vessels were not to be handled by the laity, could become casual and feelgoody . Then abolish the eucharistic fast, suppress Friday abstinence from being under pain of mortal sin to whatever you felt like (1966) let nuns abandon their habits etc, and then when all was talk of change and new freedoms, suddenly condemn the Birth Control pill which to a generation which worshiped medicine, seemed like something harmless a doctor prescribed, was a recipe for psychological disorientation on a cosmic scale.
As Peter Berger the sociologist said “CS Lewis’ Screwtape couldn’t have done a better job.”

It is no accident that the most disaffected generation of Catholics is that of the 45 -70 year olds who lived through all the confusion. This phenomenon is apparent all over the Western world. It is interesting when one talks to them, because they do have a genuine nostalgia for the Old Mass, the Nuns, etc and they are often shocked by just how lax the average modern Catholic parish is. but their faith is lost and for them that was another time and a different world.

I have no doubt that some reforms were needed; but the way in which they were handled was just about the worst possible.

 

[pilots13]

Dude God hates extravagance and riches… Need I refer you to the vows of poverty many people in our Church take… Read the parable of the rich young man… Read how the disciples sold everything they had before they started their ministries and travels…

No I think our Churches should be simple, basic, and plain… God knows what’s in our hearts Simon… God doesn’t want us to be worshiping in Gold plated Churches and Chapels… Keep it simple man

Bravo to this statement!

On Vatican II, I think it was a great thing. It helped push the Church out of the 1500’s and into the 1900’s. I pray I’ll see a Vatican III within my life time to help push the Church into the 21st century. Between the social and moral issues that simply didn’t exist in the 1960’s (or were fairly new topics at the time), to the growing gap between the Church and the younger generations, to the global society we now live in which was in it’s infancy 50 years ago. I hope we will be able to have a council, and a Pope as open minded as John XXIII and Paul VI to continue pushing Christ’s Church forward.

 

[Hadrianus]

Yes “God knows what’s in our hearts…” that’s why we need all that gold to keep Him distracted

 

[ProVobis]

Yes “God knows what’s in our hearts…” that’s why we need all that gold to keep Him distracted

Don’t forget myrrh and frankincense too.

 

[ProVobis]

No I think our Churches should be simple, basic, and plain…

Have you checked the price tag of some of these new church buildings?

 

[mro]

Have you checked the price tag of some of these new church buildings?

I’m saying we spend wayyyy to much on our churches compared to protestants (unless your a big box Evangelical and build a friggin Crystal skyscraper; that incidentally is becoming a Catholic Cathedral…

 

[Hadrianus]

This is probably a topic for a psychologist, but I don’t know what it is about contemporary Catholics and squandering money. In California alone the dioceses seem to have lost all sense of proportion. Los Angeles, Oakland, and now the Crystal Coffin. Never has so much been spent by so few for so little purpose.Most of these buildings will be nearly empty most of the time, including sundays. They are way out of proportion to any practical use by a congregation. Their acoustics are musically hopeless, they are as “welcoming” as an airport terminal.

And there are starving children in the world…

 

[edwest2]

The Second Vatican Council occurred in 1962, the same year as the Cuban Missile Crisis which brought the world, not just the United States, to the brink of nuclear war.

Today, many people do not know that for the first time more people lived in cities, as opposed to urban areas, was 2010.

1960 - The FDA approves The Pill but since most people lived on farms and urban areas, it did not get a big marketing push until 1967.

Please, read the Time Magazine cover story:

time.com/time/covers/0,16641,19670407,00.html

Pope Paul VI reacted quite quickly, releasing Humanae Vitae in 1968. He warned that increased promiscuity would occur if Catholics did not abide by his teaching. He was right.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

Here is an article by a Catholic priest that clearly tells us of the protest against Humanae Vitae at the time:

catholic-vision.blogspot.com/2011/07/43rd-anniversary-of-humanae-vitae.html

Families and what it meant to be married were what was at stake. I was there in 1968, the Sexual Revolution demanded nothing less than sex with anyone, married or not. And there was a greater sense of trust of our Government and in the Supreme Court at the time.

As a Catholic, I was totally amazed that “penumbras” and “emanations” from the Constitution gave any government body the right to declare as law, unrestricted access to abortion in 1973. Along with a vague “right to privacy.”

I was totally dumbfounded as Adult Bookstores opened across the country in the 1970s, making what was meant to be private public. And the topless bars and strip clubs. Of course, the wrong application of the law, gave the publishers and owners the “First Amendment Right” to do all this. And the bookstores were selling magazines with ads from women looking for no strings attached sex.

1980s - Porn on cable. No-Fault Divorce. I actually saw classified ads like this in my local newspaper: “No kids? $75. Call 1-800-DIVORCE.” Families were deeply damaged. What happened to the children? To the aunts and uncles after a bitter divorce? Today, celebrities in particular often divorce quite quickly. The deep, loving intergenerational ties were broken in some cases.

1990s Shock jocks. Profanity on the radio. “Partial Nudity” on ABC with NYPD Blue. And then the internet.

Vatican II was responsible for none of this.

Peace,
Ed

 

[pilots13]

Have you checked the price tag of some of these new church buildings?

We recently got a new Archbishop here and he but a block on all building projects till further notice cause so many parishes were building these massive, beautiful churches, then incurring so much debt that they can’t pay it off, pulling the dioceses’ credit rating down the tubes (and in a tough economy now too).