Vatican II

[samoht]

Dear Mr. Eby -
Some thoughts from a post VII cradle Catholic in case you are interested in a different perspective. Tho first I would like to say that I really respect your love for the church and for the tradition you were raised in. The long history and tradition of the Church is one of the things I take great comfort in.

I was born in the early 60’s so my formation on the faith was right on the edge of VII. I have done no research of my own on VII but was taught that the purpose was to be more accessible to the regular people.

I would agree that we are way more casual than even some protestant churches I have been to. However, the fastest growing non-denominational church in our area stresses casual attire. I also understand that for your generation, the way you dressed was part of your worship to God - a sign of respect. But you must not presume that people in my generation are dressing the way the are out of disrespect.

I don’t care much for the more modern churches. My church has beautiful statues and architecture.

We have beautiful marble altars. I wouldn’t much care for a wooden one either.

My mother is a cradle Catholic. She attended Masses in Latin with the Homilies in Bohemian. I am very grateful that I can experience the entire Mass in a language I understand.

I think that’s a generational thing - I see nothing wrong with it at all. My mother loves it - she always wanted to be an altar server but of course, could not because she was a girl.

Guilty. Tho, in my defense - I teach CCD on Sunday mornings and this allows me to get to class early to prepare for the little darlings.

I think that is up to you. If you have alot of talking people before and during mass I can see your point. Perhaps that is something your parish priest can address?

It sounds lovely. But how was church growth at the time? Was it better or worse than now? This year, my parish has 9 catechuments and candidates we will be welcoming into the Church.

And, as others have said, I believe most of these changes were cultural, not from VII. And, in my comparatively short experience, some of it depends on your priest. Our last one was very traditional and brought back a lot of traditions (including the Angelus which I had never heard of - sad, I know). Our current one is more modern and did away with a lot of the traditional stuff.

I’ve learned to lift my heart up to God, no matter the form of the Mass or the priest involved. Christ is still there along with the whole communion of saints - it is still a beautiful thing.

God bless you.

Jeanie,
I thank you for your intelligent response. Most of the responses I have received are in asking my questions instead of trying to logically answer mine. I am not angry about that tho some think I am. I do not get angry for it is a wasted emotion.

You speak, for example of the Angelus, and it is truly beautiful. It has been so long since I have heard it that I would love to have it come into use again. There are so many things that people have not experienced that were truly beautiful. When I was a boy I sang in a choir that was made up of men and boys and we sang all the beautiful hymns. Some in English and many in Latin. Because of the way our church was configured with very high ceilings the sound was like that of an immense choir and very beautiful. It would give one chills to hear the reverance and beautiful tones. I could still, to this day, sing all of those Latin chants and hymns with great excitement.

To me the catholic faith was more than an experience. It was a way of life that we lived every day. It was never out of our minds.
Now, to the sorrow of the times, such feeling will not be found by the current experience.

I will say again that any of my comments have nothing to do with Vatican II documents. It has to do with attitude and lack of reverance. In the church I grew up in it was just an experience entering the church. The very high ceilings had paintings like in the Sistene Chapel. They were paintings of the Angels and Jesus at the Center. You could not look up without being in awe.
The life size statues and very large stations of the Cross were every where.

All of this brought you into an atmosphere of reverence and pride.
This is not the desire of a man 72 years old to ruminate on the past. It is something that could not help but help one become reverant. And is that not what it should be?

Doing away with the traditional stuff is what it is all about. Tradition is what gives us solidarity. When I was in the military we followed tradition to the letter otherwise we would have nothing.
If you were a girl scout or a brownie you followed tradition other wise you had nothing more than a bunch of girls doing whatever they want. Tradition is the core of what man is all about.

The tradition of our county during the most destructive war during World War II was what brought us thru such terrible times. Everything is about tradition. Without it we would all just do our own thing which is what many people want to do today. That is more than wrong, it is destructivef and we will pay for it.

Jeanie, I would suggest that you find about what the tradition of the church was in the past and how it went about it’s daily life.
You seem like a sensible caring person and you can really find how great it was in the past and why I care so much about it.

You were born about the same time my daughters were born and I know you did not have a chance to see how things were but we can all learn from the past. I am a student of world history and I have learned more in my life because of it.

Againl, I really appreciate your comments and stay as you are for you are a good person.

God Bless and keep you.

Thomas Eby…

 

[samoht]

Just curious here

How does your ‘research’ not provide you with proper terminology for some of the things you have complained about?

The twelve items I listed are things I lived through. How does one research what one has lived through?

Thomas Eby…

 

[peary]

Originally Posted by **samoht **

1. The slovenly dress
2. Talking while Mass is going on

Again, this is the crudeness which has crept into culture as a whole and, unfortunately, is reflected in our churches. There is a definite loss of the sacred. But why don’t Eastern rite Catholics suffer the same? There is none of this in their churches.

1. throwing away the beautiful statues

the argument was that it distracts from communal worship, which I disagree with totally.

1. no more communion rail

there was a movement to get rid of any barriers between the sanctuary and the people.

1. No more chimes when the priest consecreates the bread and
   water.

This varies from parish to parish.

1. Confessions of all the faithful rather than individual confessions

the vast majority of Catholic Christians seem to have loss even the sense of sin. No sin = no confession needed!

1. A wooden table replacing the beautiful altars.

Our parish ‘table’ is an altar. It is made out of marble with a relic in it. As such, it is also unmoveable.

1. The replacing of the Latin Mass with the vernacular

This is still a great movement of the Spirit to be able to worship in our own language. It is a great grace, as far as I am concerned. Should Latin have been totally eliminated from the Mass? No, and Vatican II never intended this.

1. Almost everything in the church now says secular not religious

Our church still has some ambience.

1. The use of girls along with altar boys

The use of girls as altar servers may also instill within them a vocation to the sisterhood. I support it.

1. Saturday Mass of convenience so that one does not have to
   get up Sunday morning. Even the Jews still make holy their
   sabbath as they have done for thousands of years

The Church has the authority to change the Sabbath. And even Paul said that the day of worship, whether it be on the Sabbath or another day, is not important.

1. Devout atmosphere in the church is almost gone.

Again, that depends on the church. The ‘devout’ atmosphere is the responsibility of the priest and his ministers.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

The twelve items I listed are things I lived through. How does one research what one has lived through?

Thomas Eby…

Then you should have no problem with terminology right?

 

[Joe_5859]

Thomas,

I know I probably can’t fully understand your feelings being as I was born well after Vatican II (late 70s), but I felt compelled to add a few things to the discussion.

I understand your frustration. Sadly, there are many places that have lost that sense of Catholic culture as being a central part of life. Many seem to have lost a sense of reverence as, in many parishes, loud talking in the church right up until Mass begins is the norm.

I want you to know, though, that this is not the case everywhere. There are places that are different. There are places where the Angelus is said every day. There are churches that still have (and use) Communion rails. There are parishes where people don’t begin to leave until five minutes after the closing song has ended because everyone stays to pray for a few minutes after Mass. There are still areas where Catholicism is an integral part of the community’s life.

I just thought this was an important thing to keep in mind. All hope is not lost!

 

[samoht]

Thomas,

I know I probably can’t fully understand your feelings being as I was born well after Vatican II (late 70s), but I felt compelled to add a few things to the discussion.

I understand your frustration. Sadly, there are many places that have lost that sense of Catholic culture as being a central part of life. Many seem to have lost a sense of reverence as, in many parishes, loud talking in the church right up until Mass begins is the norm.

I want you to know, though, that this is not the case everywhere. There are places that are different. There are places where the Angelus is said every day. There are churches that still have (and use) Communion rails. There are parishes where people don’t begin to leave until five minutes after the closing song has ended because everyone stays to pray for a few minutes after Mass. There are still areas where Catholicism is an integral part of the community’s life.

I just thought this was an important thing to keep in mind. All hope is not lost!

Thank you, Joe. You are a good thinking man.

 

[Brenda_V]

Thomas,

You are the same age as my mother so, here is another cradle Catholic who lived through the changes of Vat. 2 as a child so I don’t remember everything.

I thought I would do the same as our other poster who is two years younger than I am and answer your questions or points individually.

1. The slovenly dress

This happens in some Parishes - for the most part my Parish and the Mission parish I attend everyone dresses relatively decent for todays standards, yes there are some in jeans but, where I live it is not unheard of for a groom to wear his best jeans and western shirt and bolo tie with his hat sitting in the pew behind him. What I am trying to say is, here, jeans can be “dressed up” or “dressed down”.

1. Talking while Mass is going on

Hmm, this is interesting because I don’t remember this happening in any Parish I have gone to Mass in in the last 20 or so years (don’t remember further back than that) and I have traveled back and forth from NM to ND every other year or so with Sunday being a travel day and going to Mass where ever we were.

1. throwing away the beautiful statues

I do know this happened in some places but don’t remember seeing it happen. Again, in my Parish, which is relatively new, we are slowly purchasing beautiful statues for the niches in our church. No we don’t have beautiful paintings on the ceiling which is a good thing because of how we had to do the roof.

1. no more communion rail

I will admit that I miss the Communion rails. I remember when we went from using them to standing in a line to receive - we were in Turkey at the time.

1. No more chimes when the priest consecreates the bread and
   water.

I am assuming you meant wine here. Anyway, my Parish uses the chimes, at the Epiclesesis (sp?) and at the Consecration.

1. Confessions of all the faithful rather than individual confessions

Ah, this old problem. When I was in High school we had “communal penance services” with “communal absolution” and the chance to go to private Confession if we still felt we needed to. This actually lasted about two or three years before the Bishops corrected it. In my current Parish we have opportunity to go to Confession (yes, private real confession) two times every day except Saturday when you have three time opportunities and Sundays when the teens have one time for if they couldn’t make any of the other times. If you want to have your confession heard before Mass you had better get there 1/2 an hour before the time and stand in line! Our Priests hear many confessions.

1. A wooden table replacing the beautiful altars.

Our current Altar is wooden and is actually very beautiful. Our previous altar was marble and was hideous, go figure.

1. The replacing of the Latin Mass with the vernacular

Like others, I have no problem with this because the Mass is the Mass whether it is in French, German or English or Latin - and I have heard it in all these languages!

1. Almost everything in the church now says secular not religious

Come visit my Church, I truly believe after having spent much time here on CAF (Catholic Answers Forums) that there are churches where this can be said about them and others where you know you are in a Catholic Church once you enter.

1. The use of girls along with altar boys

Since this is allowed by Rome (as in the Pope says it is okay) with the caveat that the local Ordinary (the Bishop) gets to say yes or no to it, I don’t have much say in it.

1. Saturday Mass of convenience so that one does not have to
   get up Sunday morning. Even the Jews still make holy their
   sabbath as they have done for thousands of years

Actually this was added for those who work in service industries such as nurses and doctors as well as restaurant servers etc. It is not a convenience so one does not have to get up on Sundays to go to Mass, it allows those who have to work a chance to go to Mass and meet their Sunday obligation!

1. Devout atmosphere in the church is almost gone.

Again, come to my Parish. The only time you don’t get that devout atmosphere is during First Holy Communions and Confirmation when family members who have fallen away come to Party with the family and they don’t leave that party attitude outside during such a wonderful, solemn time for these children!

I certainly hope this helps you to see that some of your concerns really are more local than you think. I do know that my Parish is a gem even in this diocese yet there are more coming back to what I call orhtodoxy, you are calling tradition.

Brenda V.

 

[CradleCath]

Thomas,

You are the same age as my mother so, here is another cradle Catholic who lived through the changes of Vat. 2 as a child so I don’t remember everything.

 

[Brenda_V]

Let me say first that yours is a lovely post…explaining instead of criticizing.

(lots cut out for brevities sake )

Please don’t picture me as an old lady rocking in a chair & reliving the past. I’m not. I’m still part of the work force…heck, my Grandfather was still milking his cows when he was 80 yrs. old. I walk two miles a day with my 85 lb. Labador Retriever & my husband & I camp out with the Grandchildren at least twice a year. We are active with our community & are vital people.

Thank you for your kindness & the chance you gave me to unburden my heart. I hope this gives you some idea of what we lost & still yearn for & are gradually…bit by bit… obtaining, thanks to God & Pope Benedict.

Oh, thank you and your welcome.

I certainly don’t see you as sitting in your rocking chair pining after the “good old days” because it is from people with kind hearts l like yours that I have had some vague memories restored for me (I made my First Communion prior to the promulgation of Vat. 2). My memories though of the Mass before the Guitar Mass was that it was very boring - but then you must remember I was but a child who did not have the full knowledge of what it was all about. It is also people like you who have helped me to learn more about my faith - many my age are finding that that “warm fuzzy” CCD that we were given really had no substance and we are seeking more - the founders of this web-site are not much older than I am!

I also wanted to thank you for “unburdening” your heart in the way you did - it helps me to understand better what some are talking about when their emotions get the better of them and they just can’t convey what they want to.

I agree that the pendulum that swung so far to modernism (not “modern times” but true modernism as is spoken of by theologians) and I pray that it will not go to that extreme that Sedevacantists seem to think it should (not that anyone here has even mentioned anything like that).

God Bless the OP for starting this thread and for all who have responded. I actually spend more time responding in the Family Life forum and just reading the others as I know my emotions can sometimes get in the way of what I want to say so it is better I do like Thumper’s daddy taught him “if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all!”

I also wanted to add that I was raised that the way I lived should reflect my Catholicism. I do not just go to Mass on Sundays and Holy Days, I must take the Gospel message with me in that secular world that I live in and “use words if necessary” .

Brenda V.

 

[CradleCath]

Oh, thank you and your welcome.

I certainly don’t see you as sitting in your rocking chair pining after the “good old days” because it is from people with kind hearts l like yours that I have had some vague memories restored for me (I made my First Communion prior to the promulgation of Vat. 2). My memories though of the Mass before the Guitar Mass was that it was very boring - but then you must remember I was but a child who did not have the full knowledge of what it was all about. It is also people like you who have helped me to learn more about my faith - many my age are finding that that “warm fuzzy” CCD that we were given really had no substance and we are seeking more - the founders of this web-site are not much older than I am!

 

[samoht]

Brenda V.;3366307:

Thomas,

Let me say first that yours is a lovely post…explaining instead of criticizing. I do know how the OP. feels, though. I was born in 1941 & also educated in Catholics schools. Catholicism then was a way of life…a culture that’s hard to describe. I lived in the same block as the Church because that’s where Catholics lived in the forties & fifties…within walking distance of the Church & shcool. When a Catholic bought a home, that was the first question, “Where is the nearest Catholic Church located”. I heard it from my Father when we were considering moving into our second home. One knew a Catholic home when one entered. There was a crucifix hanging in one of the main rooms & often times a picture of the Sacred Heart, the Last Supper or the Angelus somewhere in plain sight. it wasn’t unusual to find a small holy water font as you entered the door.

I too, share the memories he mentioned & no…it’s not that some “old folks” just long for the old ways as some of the “old ways” were a pain in the neck…no recognized girl’s sports teams in either public or private schools, the neccessity of riding the bus when the weather was too bad to walk & your Father was the only who had unlimited access to the “family” car, having a non-Catholic boy ask you for a date knowing full well that when his parents found out that you were Catholic…well, that would be the end of dating.

However, I really believe that the 40’s & 50’s were the golden age of Catholicism in this country. There is a researcher named **Arnold Sparr who wrote an excellent paper on this called:: Catholic Culture in Post-1920 America
To Promote, Defend and Redeem: The Catholic Literary Revival and the Cultural Transformation of American Catholicism, 1920-1960. **

I remember, even as a child going to Church at night for the Stations of the Cross, Benediction, etc. I LOVED the dimly lit Church with it’s lighted candles, it’s scattering of parishioners kneeling at predieux & lighting votives for someone who needed prayers, the creaking of the old kneelers as people entered & left the Confessionals. There was a holy & solemn feeling to the building, both from exterior decor & the souls of many generations of the Catholics who had worshipped there. The scent of incense coupled with warm wet coats will always remind me of my very Catholic upbringing.

The atmosphere at the Tridentine Mass of that time WAS different. There was silence, beautiful SILENCE, in the congregation, broken only by the old prayers & repsonses…“et cum spiritu tuo, Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi & mea culpa, mea culpa, mea MAXIMA culpa” still threatens to erupt from my soul during the Novus Ordo.

And if you called yourself a Catholic…you attended Mass. Daily if possible, Holy Days & Sunday absolutely. I myself attended daily Mass until I was 20 yrs. old & left home to attend a secular University. (My Father insisted. He knew that we’d be dealing with a world that held a majority of non-Catholics & his desire was to prepare us for that since he felt we had been totally immersed in Catholicism during our young years).

I was taught by the nuns of the Sacred Heart & my husband by the Jesuits when they were still the Jesuits. Both of us feel that our education through those first 12 yrs., was superior to that received in the public schools & I KNOW that the self-discipline & search for excellence that was drilled, cajoled, role-modeled & expected of us by those wonderful nuns & priests have had a powerful impact on our lives.

I think that, as people in their 60’s look at today’s Catholicism it rather breaks their hearts. How could we have let this go for a Mass that seems mundane to us, for the “right to wear jeans to Mass”, etc.

Please don’t picture me as an old lady rocking in a chair & reliving the past. I’m not. I’m still part of the work force…heck, my Grandfather was still milking his cows when he was 80 yrs. old. I walk two miles a day with my 85 lb. Labador Retriever & my husband & I camp out with the Grandchildren at least twice a year. We are active with our community & are vital people.

Thank you for your kindness & the chance you gave me to unburden my heart. I hope this gives you some idea of what we lost & still yearn for & are gradually…bit by bit… obtaining, thanks to God & Pope Benedict.

It is this kind of post that makes it worth reading. Criticizing and accusing here in this forum is anti-productive. We should all read posts like this and just skim by the negatives. As a man once told me “If you only have a choice of being right or being kind” then always be kind.

Thomas Eby

 

[CradleCath]

CradleCath;3369630:

It is this kind of post that makes it worth reading. Criticizing and accusing here in this forum is anti-productive. We should all read posts like this and just skim by the negatives. As a man once told me “If you only have a choice of being right or being kind” then always be kind.

Thomas Eby

Thank you very much for these nice words, Thomas & you also Brenda V. When I’m reading these boards & some person who has only known today’s Catholicism makes some smart crack…many times I just want to explode. Then, when I take time to THINK, I do realize that this faith of today is all they know, it’s all they’ve lived. And, to hear someone criticizing it…complaining about the irreverence (& I agree that most times the Novus Ordo seems irreverent), the innumerable EEM’s, etc. they’re reactions are to defend the Church that they believe is the Vatican II Church.

What I am concerned about is that they might not even know that the Novus Ordo they attend is NOT the Mass “of Vatican II”. If they were, the appearance of EEM’s would be rare indeed. They are to be used only when illness or huge numbers of people make it impossible for the priest to give Communion.

They’s still be receiving the Eucharist on their tongue…kneeling at the altar rail.

They’d be listening to the choir…yes, a CHOIR… singing Gregorian chant or Polyphony.

They’d be surrounded by statues of the Virgin, St. Joseph & the saints & they would hear SOME of the language of the Church…Latin, at every Mass.

They would never have experienced “Communal absolution”.

So…if some “Vatican II Catholics” will take another look at what was really proposed by the council…& what WASN’T, I’ll try to remember that you are only doing what you consider to be right & good…defending your Church.