Vatican II

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CradleCath said:
I despise seeing a priest dressed up as Barney while saying Mass.
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My, have you personally seen this? Is it common?
CradleCath said:
…people feel that they are “degraded” by kneeling & receiving Christ on their tongue. Etc…
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I had no idea that people are giving this as a reason for not kneeling at communion, are you certain about this?..do these same people also refuse to genuflect toward the tabernacle?

Is this a widespread problem in the church?
*
Michael*
 
The Roman liturgical abuses I’ve seen:
Excessive use of EMHC’s.
Priest wearing stole over chasuble.
Priest wearing chasuble over habit without alb.
Priest using mass for children or EP II on sundays.
non-communicants going forward during communion.
A few inappropriate songs chosen.
Allowing non-ordained persons to speak during the time for the homily.
I’ve encountered an Organist being allowed to play who couldn’t tell that no one could sing over his ALWAYS WAY TOO PAINFULLY LOUD settings… again, the music was extremely traditional, and his keyboarding skills excellent… but he violated the principles of liturgical music, and his singing voice was hideous (off key, off rhythm, and horrendous in timbre).

That’s it. That’s since I became truly aware of the “proper” way the Roman mass was done, in about 1978.

I’ve never seen a truly irreverent OF/NO mass. I’ve seen a few irreverent attendees. The most obnoxious ones are the ones who ignore the rubrics of the mass in favor of some self-perceived traditional mode (and that mode usually isn’t in the Trent or Dominican rubrics, either…). Like the guy who insists that everyone is supposed to kneel from “Pray Brethren” until communion… or the lady who alters the Credo to “who originates from the Father and the Son” (which is heretical, BTW), or the gal who thinks deacons are not ordained, since the role of deacon and subdeacon was “always filled by priests in it!” (it = the TLM)
I’ve heard some bad music; it was all “traditional music” but done so slow that it made a funeral dirge look spritely.
I’ve heard some inappropriate instruments used… but in all cases I’ve seen, they were used well, and in a manner that was neither disruptive nor incompatible with the proper use of the Human Voice as the primary instrument of the music for Worship.
 
Hesychios said:
My, **have you personally seen this? **Is it common?

Are you speaking of my dislike of “Barney priests”. No, I have not personally seen this. The priest that I saw in costume was dressed as a clown, while another wore a George Bush halloween mask during Mass. I have seen it & many more sacrileges. 50 yr. old “Liturgical Dancers” doing the “dance of the flood”. Large women who twirled scarves, that were supposed to resemble rain falling. They had trouble getting up after they sank to the floor & ‘wriggled’ about to call to mind the raging flood waters. That was one of the more embarrassing incidents, though there were many more.
I had no idea that people are giving this as a reason for not kneeling at communion, are you certain about this?..do these same people also refuse to genuflect toward the tabernacle?
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tobinatorstark said:
some good decisions and some bad decisions. Your best bet to understand the changes is to read the Vatican II documents
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What the Vatican II documents say and what is going on (at least with the liturgy) are two VERY different things.
 
Aramis said:
The Roman liturgical abuses I’ve seen:
Excessive use of EMHC’s.
Priest wearing stole over chasuble.
Priest wearing chasuble over habit without alb.
Priest using mass for children or EP II on sundays.
non-communicants going forward during communion.
A few inappropriate songs chosen.
Allowing non-ordained persons to speak during the time for the homily.
I’ve encountered an Organist being allowed to play who couldn’t tell that no one could sing over his ALWAYS WAY TOO PAINFULLY LOUD settings…
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Even this is mostly an issue of judgement as opposed to abuse. Yet, I have to believe that what others have reported is true in other areas of the country.
 
CradleCath said:
I can give you more that I have personally witnessed if you like…
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You need to find a new parish.

I saw liturgical dancers at a Mass once. I was more than a little shocked.

Although the girls (at the time all under 18 I think) were rather attractive…it had a way of distracting me from the focus on God. The young males dancing in tights looked a bit embarrassed and I was embarrassed for them.

Michael
 
Famule said:
What the Vatican II documents say and what is going on (at least with the liturgy) are two VERY different things.
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I agree with this too.

But I think that Vatican Council II is getting more blame for the liturgical problems than it should. If one studies the texts I doubt there will be justification in them for liturgical dancers, bad music, and clown suits.

The problem originates out of another dynamic.
 
Hesychios said:
I agree with this too.

But I think that Vatican Council II is getting more blame for the liturgical problems than it should. If one studies the texts I doubt there will be justification in them for liturgical dancers, bad music, and clown suits.

The problem originates out of another dynamic.
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The Vatican II documents don’t even speak of the priest turning to face the people for the entire mass and certainly don’t give permission for an all vernacular mass.
 
Famule said:
The Vatican II documents don’t even speak of the priest turning to face the people for the entire mass and certainly don’t give permission for an all vernacular mass.
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That is how I understand it.

As to the extreme cases of experimentation…I think these are a result of a breakdown in discipline, and in some cases poor taste (which is relative, and affected by cultural norms).

I don’t have a clear theory about how this could have happened but I lived through the liturgical changes as they occurred and remember the helplessness and frustration of the laity who were attached to the TLM (for good reason). After it was all a done deal nostalgia set in big time and Latin Mass LP’s were selling well. Now most of that generation have gone to God.

The biggest complaint over what I call “taste” was about the ‘guitar’ Mass, but even that was not necessarily a bad thing. These people put their hearts and souls into the effort. Oftentimes it was very good.

The wackiness came later, I think not until the 1980’s. And then only in isolated cases that were soon well publicized.

Liturgical dance is not completely absurd, in another setting it could be very spiritually uplifting. Perhaps during a small group poetic reading of the psalms in LOTH.

I will never understand the puppets or the clowns or the invalid matter for the Eucharist. There is a serious breach of discipline there, and the responsibility falls directly upon the bishop.
*
Michael*
 
I have grown up with the reforms of Vatican II and for me there is no other Catholic Church and that is the way it is for millions of Catholics. There is a lot of antidotal evidence of “problems” caused by the council but I’ve never seen imperical evidence that the fall in numbers of vocations or any of the other opportunities in the church was caused by the reforms. Most people I know who have left the Church did so because the still thought pre-council rules goverrned the day and did not know the church could serve them in their time of need.
An priest, who was a long time family friend decribed the Church the best. That it was not some imovable stone object forever set in place, but a living and viable organizm that was alive and capable of changing to meet the needs of every generation. Yes, we are a church of tradition, it gives us a continual foundation to build upon and an identity of Catholic.
It is that identity we share, and the teachings and morals it holds we need to hold to as our beliefs come under increasing attack, not weather a dance at a liturgy is some great violation and liturgical abuse.
Vatican II gave use tools to spead the faith as never before. So our focus need to be on the possitive aspects of our faith. Who wants to be around a family that is bickering all the time? The Church can lead the way in the 21st century, to stand up for moral values, human rights, social justice and that is the spirit of Vatican II.

Peace,
FAB
 
Hesychios said:
That is how I understand it.

As to the extreme cases of experimentation…I think these are a result of a breakdown in discipline, and in some cases poor taste (which is relative, and affected by cultural norms).

I don’t have a clear theory about how this could have happened but I lived through the liturgical changes as they occurred and remember the helplessness and frustration of the laity who were attached to the TLM (for good reason). After it was all a done deal nostalgia set in big time and Latin Mass LP’s were selling well. Now most of that generation have gone to God.

The biggest complaint over what I call “taste” was about the ‘guitar’ Mass, but even that was not necessarily a bad thing. These people put their hearts and souls into the effort. Oftentimes it was very good.

The wackiness came later, I think not until the 1980’s. And then only in isolated cases that were soon well publicized.

Liturgical dance is not completely absurd, in another setting it could be very spiritually uplifting. Perhaps during a small group poetic reading of the psalms in LOTH.

I will never understand the puppets or the clowns or the invalid matter for the Eucharist. There is a serious breach of discipline there, and the responsibility falls directly upon the bishop.
*
Michael*
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Liturgical dance during Mass is a liturgical abuse and it is forbidden. Guitars at Mass is a distraction. Chant and the organ should be the norm. Growing up in the post VII Mass and have seen a majority of the abuses from being a altar boy to seeing it from the pew, it makes going to Mass seem a distraction and a spiritual void.

The biggest problem was the Bishops and Priests were supposed to be the guardians and defenders of the faith. There were and still are good Priests who pushed back the innovations and held firm to the wacky modernism. But a a good majority did not. They let the innovations and liturgical abuses creep in and become the norm.

The main problem was VII was not explained properly. The Bishops told the Priests and the Priests told the laity. They had only a few T.V. stations back then. C.B.S., A.B.C. and N.B.C. Besides from hearing information from the pews the only other source was the local newspaper, Time, Life, etc. They did not have E.W.T.N., Cable T.V., the Internet, blogs, access to books, and publishing companies, Good bookstores, etc…

Today, with the advancement of communications, it is easy to get a copy of the documents of the council and previous councils and encyclicals and read and study them at home. Also we have access to the Vatican from home via the internet. Also there are many books published about and what happened at VII in the aftermath.
 
Malkin71 said:
Liturgical dance during Mass is a liturgical abuse and it is forbidden.
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And where does the Church forbid this? Thanks for any help on the reference.

I thought I recall seeing liturgical dance at some of John Paul II’s Masses when he was traveling.
 
diggerdomer said:
And where does the Church forbid this? Thanks for any help on the reference.

I thought I recall seeing liturgical dance at some of John Paul II’s Masses when he was traveling.
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I have a better question.
What does liturgical dance have to do with the Sacrifice of the Mass?
 
Ottaviani said:
I have a better question.
What does liturgical dance have to do with the Sacrifice of the Mass?
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Why is that question better?

And if it is (which it may be) then maybe it should be on a new Thread? Particularly if you are responding to a question with another question instead of a real response.
 
Malkin71 said:
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9901fea1.asp

Click on the link and read down you will see

Here is another source

ourladyswarriors.org/teach/litudanc.htm
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Thank you.

But, to be honest, I was looking for something from the Vatican or the U.S. Bishops’ Conference. They’re the ones with the authority for liturgical law. If you have any sources from them, that are clear and binding, it would really help. Thanks again.

Besides, what about Pope John Paul II and liturgical dance? e.g. cso.quixote.org/node/42

Was he wrong?
 
diggerdomer said:
Thank you.

But, to be honest, I was looking for something from the Vatican or the U.S. Bishops’ Conference. They’re the ones with the authority for liturgical law. If you have any sources from them, that are clear and binding, it would really help. Thanks again.

Besides, what about Pope John Paul II and liturgical dance? e.g. cso.quixote.org/node/42

Was he wrong?
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Both of the links provides notes from the Vatican “Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship” handles the affairs on the Liturgy for the West. Antonio Cañizares Llovera is the current Cardinal Prefect. Click on the link to give a brief summery

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWDANCE.HTM A link to

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregation_for_Divine_Worship_and_the_Discipline_of_the_Sacraments

Here is a link to another article.

catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=135

I think you should read the whole article to the link and and do some background on the Congregation for Worship and Divine Sacraments. and what was “Notitiae” used for? You might learn something.
 
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