Vatican II

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It is rather that the local priest and his helpers are now free to impose their tastes upon me.

A mass is reverent based opon objective, dispassionate standards. ‘That’s just your opinion’, (a weak rejoinder often used on here), is a short step away from relativism. In the past, it was assumed that Catholics knew what reverence is. The were raised to it. That is not so, now.

I would like to see a solemn, reverent, quiet Mass, with beautiful prayers and Chant, said by-the-book, in every parish in the West on a Sunday. The old rite offers the opportunity to do this, ready-made.
I get so frustrated when I hear people say things like this. Mostly because it seems to imply that the OF necessarily leads to impiety and irreverence. Which is simply not true. Some of the best, most faithful, pious, and reverent Catholics I know have a distinct preference for the OF over the EF. And I also happen to know many good faithful, pious, reverent Catholics who attend the OF. The form of the Rite has absolutely nothing to do with determining whether the Mass is either celebrated or attended reverently and piously, that entirely rests on the particular people involved.

[EDIT: Also, so you are not just relying on my personal experience, have you ever watched a Mass on EWTN? Does that particular OF Mass ‘engender irreverence and impiety’? I don’t think so. Hint, the OF is not the problem]
 
The modern rite only makes sense as a response to excessive formalism and restriction.
I don’t think that was the intention; it may be an unintended consequence from a loss of discipline; however this loss of discipline is not formally dependent on a rite; we live in a disobedient society for the most part, and if the EF rite became normative there’s nothing to suggest that we as a people and the priests would suddenly become completely obedient and 100% faithful to the rubrics. This is where, I think, many err, that is in thinking a return to the old rite, or that the old rite was somehow superior, is at the root of the Church’s problems today. The problem is not the rite. The problem is us.

One reason for the OF was to acknowledge, culturally, that the Roman Rite was no longer, in a sense just a Western aka Eurocentric Church.

The other was that many accretions did in fact creep into the Mass that slid out of their context and held little relevance to faith, reverence, whatever.

Lastly, and most importantly, Vatican II does make clear that it no longer wanted the laity to be merely passive participants at the Mass:
  1. Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that fully conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy. Such participation by the Christian people as "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people (1 Pet. 2:9; cf. 2:4-5), is their right and duty by reason of their baptism.
In the restoration and promotion of the sacred liturgy, this full and active participation by all the people is the aim to be considered before all else; for it is the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit; and therefore pastors of souls must zealously strive to achieve it, by means of the necessary instruction, in all their pastoral work.
(Sacrosanctum Concilium).

So let’s at least try to focus on what Vatican II actually says rather than trying to suppose all manner of nefarious intent behind it. Sacrosanctum Concilium is very clear on what was intended. It should be our departure point for any balanced discussion and rather than focus on how the OF somehow is a manifestation of a desire to weaken the Mass or remove “excessive formalism” as you put it, we should focus on how what has since transpired actually matches up against what SC says; we have little option than to suppose that what it says is in fact the intent, since we were not present at the Council and are not privy to the thoughts on the hearts of those who were. The crux of the problem remains misapplication of SC, and the lack of discipline that is behind that. It’s a lack of discipline that I think is the result of modern society, and it is a lack of discipline from which the EF Mass would not be immune if it became normative.
 
We’ve had 40 years of apologia and great eagerness to implement the reforms of Vatican II and the New Rite. They don’t seem to have even done the minimum of keeping seminary numbers and mass attendance stable, never mind increasing them. The reverse has happened.

Time to try something else.
 
We’ve had 40 years of apologia and great eagerness to implement the reforms of Vatican II and the New Rite. They don’t seem to have even done the minimum of keeping seminary numbers and mass attendance stable, never mind increasing them. The reverse has happened.

Time to try something else.
Like actually calling people to live the interior life they are supposed to? I’m sorry, but the absolute best Catholics I have ever known attend the OF, and I have known some amazing Catholics. Like I said, the problem is not the OF, its the attitudes and failings of the particular people involved. If tomorrow you forced everyone to say the EF abuses and irreverence would continue. (Not to mention you would be violating the idea of organic change by abruptly forcing people to change their traditions and customs to something completely foreign and unfamiliar to them). We need better Catechesis and people to be more enthusiastic and real about their faith, this is perfectly possible with either form of the Mass. It is not something limited to the EF, despite what some people seem to believe.

EDIT: Also, because the change necessary is a change of the hearts and minds of individuals, the only way to actually bring about such change is on an intimate, personal level. One must get to know and befriend these people who are struggling, gain their respect, and then gently and charitably encourage them to become more deeply involved and aware of their faith, both through our words and actions. There is no other solution.]
 
The Mass at EWTN?

Yes, is reverent, pious, but I haven’t seen a Novus Orda Mass like that in person yet.

And Roger has a good point. Some of the most Orthodox and Traditional Catholics I know are young people. I guess they are so tired of the heterodoxy, irreverence and progressism in our Dioceses.

Blessings!

🙂
 
We’ve had 40 years of apologia and great eagerness to implement the reforms of Vatican II and the New Rite. They don’t seem to have even done the minimum of keeping seminary numbers and mass attendance stable, never mind increasing them. The reverse has happened.

Time to try something else.
Changing the rite is not the “something else”. The rite has nothing to with what is happening.

The churches that are the most successful at growing these days aren’t even liturgical churches in any sense (e.g. Pentecostals, Evangelicals). The ones that are fading aren’t fading because of their rites.

Why is that? I think because the Evangelicals etc. try to try to foster a direct, interior, personal encounter with God.

That’s not impossible within Catholicism; we have the experiences of the great mystics saints to draw upon and show the way. We have contemplative religious orders to help, and may of those have programs for laity. We have other orders and congregations that foster community involvement. We have a great tradition of liturgical prayer to help us along the way; Vatican II in fact brought the Liturgy of the Hours much more within the reach of the laity and that’s a Very Good Thing. We have, in fact, an endless supply of resources to draw upon.

That’s the place to look. Deep inside. Not the superficial.
 
The Mass at EWTN?

Yes, is reverent, pious, but I haven’t seen a Novus Orda Mass like that in person yet.

And Roger has a good point. Some of the most Orthodox and Traditional Catholics I know are young people. I guess they are so tired of the heterodoxy, irreverence and progressism in our Dioceses.

Blessings!

🙂
Yes, well I have, and I happen to know many good faithful reverent and pious young people that attend the OF. They also don’t like to see heterodoxy, irreverance or progressivism (assuming what you mean by that is change for the sake of change). I’m sorry but being reverant and in line with Church teaching is not something that is restricted to EF parishes and communities. My point is that it is not the OF that is the problem. And introducing the EF everywhere will not fix all of our problems and will result in various new ones. I have nothing against the EF, it is great, and there are many wonderful people who attend the EF and many wonderful movements starting to spring up that are focused/centered around it, but that doesn’t mean the answer to the problem in todays Church is simiply to change the form of Mass. Let me repeat, it is not the form that is the problem, but the attitudes of those celebrating and attending that is the problem. Anyone who thinks differently is simply fooling themselves.
 
So, that which worked up to 1970, for hundreds of years, should not be reverted to? Instead, let us hope for catechesis to come out of nothing, in a desert?

Keep doing the same thing which a) hasn’t worked as promised and b) Preceded a mass exodus from the Church? That is not logical.

Pentectostals and Evangelicals are part of 10,000-plus sects, not a unified Church. I’d say their fellowship works up to a point; love-bombing is a crude way to get followers. Then they split off. Catholicism goes way beyond that point and offers a safe and simple path to Heaven.
 
So, that which worked up to 1970, for hundreds of years, should not be reverted to? Instead, let us hope for catechesis to come out of nothing, in a desert?

Yes, keep doing the same thing which a) hasn’t worked as promised and b) Preceded a mass exodus from the Church? That is not logical.

Pentectostals and Evangelicals are part of 10,000-plus sects, not a unified Church. I’d say their fellowship works up to a point; love-bombing is a crude way to get followers. Then they split off. Catholicism goes way beyond that point and offers a safe and simple path to Heaven.
You have yet to make a cogent argument about how the form of the Mass is the source of the problem.

You are the one not being logical. You assume that because event A occurred and event B occurred after, that logically A caused B. There is no proof that is the case. In fact there is evidence that event B actually started before A: much of what was happening to Catholics started in the 1960s and perhaps earlier, actually well before the new Mass was promulgated. There is also plenty of evidence that the general decline in church attendance, religious observance, etc. in the West in the same time frame, was not limited to Catholicism. So it would seem that logically in fact, the new rite would have little do to with the issue.

You are also assuming that there’s a mass exodus from the Church when in fact the Church is growing. There’s a massive exodus in the developed Western nations. Not in places like Africa. Oddly enough the EF Mass is not widely available in Africa from what I can tell. That pretty much kills the theory that the OF Mass is the cause of the exodus. In fact using your logic, I could conclude that the OF Mass is responsible for growth in the Church. But of course that isn’t true. The form of the Mass only appears to be remotely connected to Church attendance, if at all.

Again the problem is not the form of the Roman Rite. It is us, as in, we who live in the Western developed countries (Europe, North America).
 
So, that which worked up to 1970, for hundreds of years, should not be reverted to? Instead, let us hope for catechesis to come out of nothing, in a desert?

Keep doing the same thing which a) hasn’t worked as promised and b) Preceded a mass exodus from the Church? That is not logical.

Pentectostals and Evangelicals are part of 10,000-plus sects, not a unified Church. I’d say their fellowship works up to a point; love-bombing is a crude way to get followers. Then they split off. Catholicism goes way beyond that point and offers a safe and simple path to Heaven.
Yes, because thats exactly what I said.:rolleyes:

First off, I am not advocating preventing the EF from spreading. I think it is great that it is as widely available as it is and that it would be even better if it were more widely available than it is. My problem is with trying to fix the Church by re-instituting the EF as the main, or only, form of Mass. That just isn’t going to work and will cause many problems because massize overhauls like that, especially where many people are forced to change their customs and traditions to something that is completely foreign to them, tends to lead to people leaving the Church/feeling resentful/being disobediant etc etc. In other words, a) the EF is not by itself going to fix the problem b) a complete overhaul would cause many more problems and rifts in the Church and bring about another 40 years or so of turmoil, just what the Church currently needs. :rolleyes:

Where do I say we need to keep doing what caused the problems in the Church? If something is not the cause of problems in the Church why in the world would it be problematic to defend it? The OF is not the cause of the problems in the Church. The fact that it was introduced at the time it was has absolutely no bearing on whether or not it is the cause of problems in the Church. What I have so far advocated for is the recognition that the OF is not the cause of the Church’s problems and to encourage people to try and change people on a personal level. How, may I ask, am I advocating for anything problematic?

And to be honest, I have absolutely no idea why you are bringing up protestants. How does that have anything to do with anything that I said? :confused:
 
Yes, well I have, and I happen to know many good faithful reverent and pious young people that attend the OF. They also don’t like to see heterodoxy, irreverance or progressivism (assuming what you mean by that is change for the sake of change). I’m sorry but being reverant and in line with Church teaching is not something that is restricted to EF parishes and communities. My point is that it is not the OF that is the problem. And introducing the EF everywhere will not fix all of our problems and will result in various new ones. I have nothing against the EF, it is great, and there are many wonderful people who attend the EF and many wonderful movements starting to spring up that are focused/centered around it, but that doesn’t mean the answer to the problem in todays Church is simiply to change the form of Mass. Let me repeat, it is not the form that is the problem, but the attitudes of those celebrating and attending that is the problem. Anyone who thinks differently is simply fooling themselves.
I’m not saying that Parishes that celebrate only the Novues Ordo Missae don’t have orthodox and devout people. My point, is that the EWTN like Masses are just a fantasy in many places and not something widespread.

Blessings!

🙂
 
Let me put it another way. You seem to imply in your post that Orthodoxy, reverence, and good catecesis are intrinsic to the EF and are somehow intrinsically repressed by the OF. This is simply not true. While it may be true that in your experience the only people who were reverent and faithful to Church teaching are those attending the EF, this is not a universal experience. It is really important to be able to distinguish what is actually causing the problem if you want to be able to fix it. In other words, it is important to distinguissh those things that accompany irreverence etc incidentally and those that are necessarily linked to it. The OF is only incidentally linked with the irreverence etc that is a problem in the Western Church today. People need to learn to recognize that is not itself the problem so that they can begin to focus on what the problem actually is. On top of that aspect of it, there’s the fact that oftentimes if people see something false in someones assertions they are much more likely to throw out everything that is being said. In other words, theres a bunch of people who if they were shown true Church teaching along with the insistance that the EF is the only Mass one should attend because it is intrinsically more reverent etc will not listen to the true Church teaching because they will not respect the thoughts of the person who claims the falsehood that the OF is the root of the problems in the Church today/ is intrinsically less reverent/whatever other denigrating thing people like to say about the OF. In other words, there is a whole bunch of people who will be almost impossible to bring more fully into the Church without the recognition that the OF is not itself the problem. This is an important distinction to make.
 
I’m not saying that Parishes that celebrate only the Novues Ordo Missae don’t have orthodox and devout people. My point, is that the EWTN like Masses are just a fantasy in many places and not something widespread.

Blessings!

🙂
I’m well aware that most parishes in the US don’t have Masses like EWTN’s nor am I trying to claim that they do.
 
Changing the rite is not the “something else”. The rite has nothing to with what is happening.

The churches that are the most successful at growing these days aren’t even liturgical churches in any sense (e.g. Pentecostals, Evangelicals). The ones that are fading aren’t fading because of their rites.

Why is that? I think because the Evangelicals etc. try to try to foster a direct, interior, personal encounter with God.

That’s not impossible within Catholicism; we have the experiences of the great mystics saints to draw upon and show the way. We have contemplative religious orders to help, and may of those have programs for laity. We have other orders and congregations that foster community involvement. We have a great tradition of liturgical prayer to help us along the way; Vatican II in fact brought the Liturgy of the Hours much more within the reach of the laity and that’s a Very Good Thing. We have, in fact, an endless supply of resources to draw upon.

That’s the place to look. Deep inside. Not the superficial.
👍👍👍
 
You have yet to make a cogent argument about how the form of the Mass is the source of the problem.

You are the one not being logical. You assume that because event A occurred and event B occurred after, that logically A caused B.
To say that Effect B which occured subsequent to Event A and which was intimately related to A, was not caused by Event A, is what is illogical.

To say that, suddenly, after a New Mass and a Vatican Council, there was a huge exodus and decline and that was not related to the foregoing, that’s what’s illogical.

To keep performing an experiment that hasn’t worked in 40 years and then to insist that the failure is the subject’s fault, that’s what illogical.
 
To say that Effect B which occured subsequent to Event A and which was intimately related to A, was not caused by Event A, is what is illogical.

To say that, suddenly, after a New Mass and a Vatican Council, there was a huge exodus and decline and that was not related to the foregoing?

To keep performing an experiment that hasn’t worked in 40 years and then to insist that it’s the subject’s fault, that’s what illogical.
So you are trying to claim that the OF is intrinsically linked with a lack of reverence. Great, would you care to explain how if that is true it ispossible for parishes such as EWTN’s to exist? For exist they do, whether or not they happen to be common. Also… you completely ignored the point of what OraLabora said… but I’ll leave him/her to explain that in more detail.
 
I’m well aware that most parishes in the US don’t have Masses like EWTN’s nor am I trying to claim that they do.
People do tend to overlook religious communities when looking for reverent and orthodox OF Masses. I know of several, including at the monastery I am associated with as an oblate. Gregorian chant, bells and smells, reverent moments of deep silence in the liturgy, the whole works.

I also know many parish Masses that while they don’t have the resources to pull off Gregorian chant, do follow the rubrics, have orthodox priests with great homilies, etc.

Then there are the sloppy parish Masses. We both know of course that the form of the Mass is no guarantee it won’t be sloppy!

We need to remember that the EF is entrusted to priests like the FSSP who have a mandate to lovingly preserve the ancient rite, or into the hands of priests who are enthusiastic about saying it. That’s largely why EF Masses appear more reverent.
 
People do tend to overlook religious communities when looking for reverent and orthodox OF Masses. I know of several, including at the monastery I am associated with as an oblate. Gregorian chant, bells and smells, reverent moments of deep silence in the liturgy, the whole works.

I also know many parish Masses that while they don’t have the resources to pull off Gregorian chant, do follow the rubrics, have orthodox priests with great homilies, etc.

Then there are the sloppy parish Masses. We both know of course that the form of the Mass is no guarantee it won’t be sloppy!

We need to remember that the EF is entrusted to priests like the FSSP who have a mandate to lovingly preserve the ancient rite, or into the hands of priests who are enthusiastic about saying it. That’s largely why EF Masses appear more reverent.
Oh, don’t worry, I don’t think there are as few good reverent OF Masses in the US as so many others seem to think. I am mostly talking about the EWTN Masses simply because they are commonly known about and recognized as being reverent. I don’t think that a Mass has to have all the bells and smells in order to be reverent. Its just that this is a good example because it is so obviously (and widely agreed upon as) reverent. 🙂
 
To say that Effect B which occured subsequent to Event A and which was intimately related to A, was not caused by Event A, is what is illogical.

To say that, suddenly, after a New Mass and a Vatican Council, there was a huge exodus and decline and that was not related to the foregoing, that’s what’s illogical.

To keep performing an experiment that hasn’t worked in 40 years and then to insist that the failure is the subject’s fault, that’s what illogical.
You’re simply blaming the Mass, and by exension the Church, and your Lord and Savior JESUS himself for the cultural and spiritual problems people have. Yes, you are. Christ gives himself to us at every single Mass regardless of the dispositions of the human beings involved or the music. He gives himself in Spanish, African, Chinese, and late 70’s pop, like it or not. In effect you are denying the efficacy of Christ’s saving power at the altar of your own taste.

The lure of worldly culture is very strong and pulls people away. This happens in any age starting at the garded of eden. In case you hadn’t noticed, we had a cultural, philosophical, and moral revolution in the last couple hundred years. This was exacerbated by the rapid development in communications. Sex drugs alcohol idol worship are all put in front of our faces and easily transmitted through the culture. At a time when people are spiritually lost and need Jeus Christ we have Catholics bickering about the darn music and vestments and which way the priest is facing!!
 
You’re simply blaming the Mass, and by exension the Church, and your Lord and Savior JESUS himself for the cultural and spiritual problems people have. Yes, you are. Christ gives himself to us at every single Mass regardless of the dispositions of the human beings involved or the music. He gives himself in Spanish, African, Chinese, and late 70’s pop, like it or not. In effect you are denying the efficacy of Christ’s saving power at the altar of your own taste.

The lure of worldly culture is very strong and pulls people away. This happens in any age starting at the garded of eden. In case you hadn’t noticed, we had a cultural, philosophical, and moral revolution in the last couple hundred years. This was exacerbated by the rapid development in communications. Sex drugs alcohol idol worship are all put in front of our faces and easily transmitted through the culture. At a time when people are spiritually lost and need Jeus Christ we have Catholics bickering about the darn music and vestments and which way the priest is facing!!
I want to say some things.

If you take Roger’s statements in an absolutist way, then yes, what you say is what he means. I don’t know if you have an emotional attachment to the subject at hand or something, but you seem to be frenetic in your desire to make the extension that “OF Mass is imprudent” [Roger’s point] to “you are blaming Jesus” [what you said]. That is quite silly and seems to be more of an emotionally-fueled overstatement than something based on solid reason and taking into account the situation at hand.

Christ does give Himself to us at every valid Mass. This is true. There are two “sets” of grace, if I understand correctly, which can flow from the context of a Mass: that coming from the Eucharist and that coming from the Mass itself. The grace of the Eucharist Itself is unlimited, but our receptivity of that grace is limited, given our human nature. The grace of the Mass, however–that is, the grace which flows from a worthy and reverent celebration of the Mass itself, the ritual, the ceremony, the objective aesthetic value, and the priest’s reception of Holy Communion under both kinds is required for any of this grace to flow–is not unlimited; it is quite limited. This latter “set” of grace–that which is apart from the Eucharist itself–is what we are here concerned with.

Outward things like music, vestments, vessels, the architecture of the building, the graceful movements of the priest, all of these things do result in a greater or lesser amount of supernatural grace to flow from the sacred rites. If the music is plainly poor music, like 70s pop, then this will result in a lesser amount of grace emanating from the celebration of the Mass. Secondly, these things affect the psychological dispositions and expectations of the priest and people present. If the priest is absolutely sloppy and careless at the altar, then his at least some of his people will naturally become sloppy and careless.

These things matter. In fact, practically any Church document concerned with the liturgy at least implies as much. I believe Roger’s concern is that it seems contradictory that we know what good liturgical praxis is, and Sacrosanctum Concilium itself seems rather clear on it, but he views the product of the “reform” as not even faithful to the document which authorized it, and in some places completely contradictory to common sense. I mean, look at Papal Masses. Ten years ago they were frankly dreadful, and they are very different now. Are the changes in this case so far limited to aesthetics? Mostly. But aesthetics is a very important and fully integral part of liturgy. Outward elements do result in a greater grace.

The outward aspects of liturgy do matter. They are not nice extras that we tack on. This has very little at all to do with taste. Certain music, architecture, styles of art, etc., can most certainly be said to be objectively aesthetically superior to others.
 
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