Vatican II

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DanielJT

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I’m trying to understand better the whole controversy, if it is one, surrounding Vatican II. Can anyone give me a brief rundown on the situation and how to address it when it comes up.

Or, can someone give me a trustworthy resource where I can dig a little deeper into what Vatican II did?

I have people that are Catholics that range from being pretty upset about this “whole ridiculous, touchy-feely ****” all the way to calling the Catholic Church the “Whore of Babylon” because of it.

Thank you in advance.
 
DanielJT said:
I’m trying to understand better the whole controversy, if it is one, surrounding Vatican II. Can anyone give me a brief rundown on the situation and how to address it when it comes up.

Or, can someone give me a trustworthy resource where I can dig a little deeper into what Vatican II did?

I have people that are Catholics that range from being pretty upset about this “whole ridiculous, touchy-feely ****” all the way to calling the Catholic Church the “Whore of Babylon” because of it.

Thank you in advance.
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Vatican II did not do as much as people seem to think it did.

the problem is, many people got carried away and introduced a whole host of things that they shouldn’t have, without permission

I know people lament that the church is the worse for it but honestly, the counsel was convened because the church was already having issues

the people that you seem to be talking to do not appear to understand church authority or their obedience to it
 
All of the Documents of VII are orthodox, in line with the Church teachings before it. The problem is how people interpreted it(or didnt interpret it) and spread much scandal and error.
 
DanielJT said:
Or, can someone give me a trustworthy resource where I can dig a little deeper into what Vatican II did?
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This is exactly what you want.

A Concise Guide to the Documents of Vatican II by Edward P. Hahnenberg.

books.google.com/books/content?id=pGanAAAACAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE73lIn5oudu_-Slg92WPaXiYveLRkf5sTDtsbhhuZlm43uRZmftUJq941mbbM1XYFehRtfs00kGvC-yi80eydHOePBDwqf5dm3z1Yi4DdQw14z_RbxGsTAjrOtmXVbR_ULa-JtWN

In this indispensable guide, Edward P. Hahnenberg outlines each of the documents produced by the Second Vatican Council. Offering the background for each work, its language and context, this book provides a clear and concise overview of the Council’s work and its significance in the life of the church. Each document’s history, content, major concerns and effects are considered. Significant quotes provide a sample of the language, and contemporary topics provide discussion opportunities. Scripture scholars and students—and every Catholic—will find this a valuable resource.

-Tim-
 
Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, as Cardinal Ratzinger, places Vatican II in its rightful place and wrote in The Ratzinger Report:
"I am convinced that the damage that we have incurred in these twenty years is due, not to the ‘true’ Council, but to the unleashing within the Church of latent polemical and centrifugal forces; and outside the Church it is due to the confrontation with a cultural revolution in the West: the success of the upper middle class, the new ‘tertiary bourgeoisie’, with its liberal-radical ideology of individualistic, rationalistic and hedonistic stamp. The cardinal exhorts all Catholics who wish to remain such “to return to the authentic texts of the original Vatican II.” The Ratzinger Report, Vittorio Messori, Ignatius, 1985, p 28-31].

“It must be stated that Vatican II is upheld by the same authority as Vatican I and the Council of Trent, namely, the Pope and the College of Bishops in communion with him, and that also with regard to its contents, Vatican II is in strictest continuity with both previous councils and incorporates their texts word for word in decisive points…” (The Ratzinger Report, p 28).

Cardinal Ratzinger expressed the required fidelity to Vatican II as: “to defend the true tradition of the Church today is to defend the Council…And this today of the Church is the documents of Vatican II, without reservations that amputate them and without arbitrariness that distorts them.” (The Ratzinger Report, Ignatius Press, 1985, p 31).

Fr William Most examined ten legitimate changes at Vatican II and found not one was a reverse of doctrine. All gave answers to previously debated points. Fr Most concludes: “It is obvious then that Vatican II did not create a revolution in theology. There are no reversals of teaching at all, and some…are only a little different or stronger than previous teachings, but all are in the same direction.” Catholic Apologetics Today: Answers To Modern Critics, Fr William G Most, TAN, 1986, p 200].
 
TimothyH said:
This is exactly what you want.

A Concise Guide to the Documents of Vatican II by Edward P. Hahnenberg.

books.google.com/books/content?id=pGanAAAACAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE73lIn5oudu_-Slg92WPaXiYveLRkf5sTDtsbhhuZlm43uRZmftUJq941mbbM1XYFehRtfs00kGvC-yi80eydHOePBDwqf5dm3z1Yi4DdQw14z_RbxGsTAjrOtmXVbR_ULa-JtWN

In this indispensable guide, Edward P. Hahnenberg outlines each of the documents produced by the Second Vatican Council. Offering the background for each work, its language and context, this book provides a clear and concise overview of the Council’s work and its significance in the life of the church. Each document’s history, content, major concerns and effects are considered. Significant quotes provide a sample of the language, and contemporary topics provide discussion opportunities. Scripture scholars and students—and every Catholic—will find this a valuable resource.

-Tim-
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THIS^^^
 
It would also be a worthwhile exercise to go through the Catechism of the Catholic Church and count the number of times that Vatican II or post-conciliar documents are used to support orthodox teaching and practice. 🙂
 
DanielJT said:
I’m trying to understand better the whole controversy, if it is one, surrounding Vatican II. Can anyone give me a brief rundown on the situation and how to address it when it comes up.

Or, can someone give me a trustworthy resource where I can dig a little deeper into what Vatican II did?

I have people that are Catholics that range from being pretty upset about this “whole ridiculous, touchy-feely ****” all the way to calling the Catholic Church the “Whore of Babylon” because of it.

Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...
I am not sure who you are talking with; you might elaborate (not names, but perhaps where they attend Mass - SSPX, EF, OF; as it is hard to say what exactly you are looking for.

Your question could be about some of the chaos that occurred after the documents were released.

Or it could be about the proper implementation of them.

Or it could be about what was actually occurring in the Church prior to calling the Council - in other words, why was the Council called?

Most Catholics do not refer to the Church as the whore of Babylon; that is usually reserved for some groups of fundamentalist/evangelical denominations.

So it is not clear who you are speaking with; possibly a mixture of Catholics and non-Catholics.
 
I recently read something that I think captures the problem in a nutshell. I had read a book by a priest who later became a bishop that touched on a lot of issues facing the Church in '50s and '60s. Then, I read a review of it in an academic journal. And here’s the kicker:

The reviewer criticized the author for seeing the documents of Vatican II as the culmination of aggiornamento rather than its starting point. This is the divide and where all the problems come from. Those with the opinion of the reviewer saw Vatican II’s actual documents as little more than a starting point for further and further change–and they often went beyond the bounds of orthodoxy and orthopraxis in doing so.
 
Father Wiltgen’s book “The Rhine Flows Into the Tiber: The Inside Story of Vatican II” is essential reading for anyone who wishes to begin to understand “what happened” at the Second Vatican Council. Father Wiltgen was an American priest who covered the Council in the manner of a journalist. His accounts are contemporary with the Council, and are therefore not tainted by the partisan rifts that formed in the following years and decades. He presents the information plainly and allows the reader to draw his own conclusions.
 
LittleFlower378 said:
All of the Documents of VII are orthodox, in line with the Church teachings before it. The problem is how people interpreted it(or didnt interpret it) and spread much scandal and error.
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Commonly called “The Spirit of Vatican II”, and used by some in authority to introduce all manner of extraneous tidbits into the Mass as well as eliminate the use of Latin almost entirely. A few of the, excuse me in advance, silly things like the pre-Mass greetings of those around us, hand-holding and exaggerated Orans posturing by the congregation were likely created by the congregation and not corrected by the clergy; they are likely here to stay.
 
baliano said:
Commonly called “The Spirit of Vatican II”, and used by some in authority to introduce all manner of extraneous tidbits into the Mass as well as eliminate the use of Latin almost entirely. A few of the, excuse me in advance, silly things like the pre-Mass greetings of those around us, hand-holding and exaggerated Orans posturing by the congregation were likely created by the congregation and not corrected by the clergy; they are likely here to stay.
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Given that the authority to correct issues such as the orans posture (which the USCCB at one point was intending to petition Rome to specifically allow) is a matter for the GIRM and that hand holding has been occurring since 1965, of which Rome has been eminently aware and which in multiple issues of the GIRM and other documents Rome has consistently refused to address, your issue is with Rome, not the local pastors - who have no authority to determine what position people’s hand are, as there are no directives in the GIRM.

You may see the issue of a greeting - whether before the Mass or later in the Mass - as silly, but liturgists don’t. Nor does Rome, as it specifically permits it. Again, your issue is with Rome.
 
baliano said:
Commonly called “The Spirit of Vatican II”, and used by some in authority to introduce all manner of extraneous tidbits into the Mass as well as eliminate the use of Latin almost entirely. A few of the, excuse me in advance, silly things like the pre-Mass greetings of those around us, hand-holding and exaggerated Orans posturing by the congregation were likely created by the congregation and not corrected by the clergy; they are likely here to stay.
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Yes but the bishops (or rather the bishops’ conferences) have the final say on the matter. It was seemingly designed that way.
 
ProVobis said:
Yes but the bishops (or rather the bishops’ conferences) have the final say on the matter. It was seemingly designed that way.
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Exactly how we arrived at the acceptability of Communion in the Hand, tossing the High Altars and altar rails, banjo/fiddle music replacing sacred music, pianos in lieu of existing organs, EMHC’s, the list goes on.

If I had even suggested any of this stuff back when I was being taught by the priests and nuns at St. Mary’s I would have been assigned some “I Must Not” penalties to write 100 times at the least, quite possibly I would have felt a ruler on my knuckles.
 
At one time and in certain places the hurdy-gurdy was considered a sacred form of music in the Church. Things change. Revealed truth does not.

The Bishops, Pope and even individual priests can’t control every posture and action of every individual in the Church.

I see the Church moving back to a more pre-scholastic church, a more monastic Church.
 
TimothyH said:
At one time and in certain places the hurdy-gurdy was considered a sacred form of music in the Church. Things change. Revealed truth does not.

The Bishops, Pope and even individual priests can’t control every posture and action of every individual in the Church.

I see the Church moving back to a more pre-scholastic church, a more monastic Church.
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And hopefully pre-clericalist as well. A more monastic Church would be A-OK by me 🙂
 
TimothyH said:
At one time and in certain places the hurdy-gurdy was considered a sacred form of music in the Church. Things change. Revealed truth does not.

The Bishops, Pope and even individual priests can’t control every posture and action of every individual in the Church.

I see the Church moving back to a more pre-scholastic church, a more monastic Church.
Click to expand...
When I attended my first post Vatican II Mass (my departure and return to the Church is fodder for another thread) I was in SoCal just North of San Diego. Mass was in some multi-purpose room with a sort-of elevated table (Mensa) as an altar. The “music” was provided by a guitar, fiddle and some form of drum/tambourine and had a distinctly '60’s flower-child feel to it, far from sacred. It took another 10+ years for me to meet an elderly Monseigneur who got me back on a solid Catholic regimen.

Thankfully the parishes I now attend have lost the hippie feel but still employ guitars and one even has a snare drum with cymbals, I suppose someone thinks it resembles the Timbrel of the OT! The most irritating aspect of all three churches is the fact they each possess an organ; one has an excellent 8 rank pipe organ yet they rarely use them preferring instead a piano! If this is the best “sacred” music I can expect I’d rather just have silence so I can meditate and pray.

When the congregation assumes a posture that is not appropriate the Priests and Bishops certainly can control that, it’s their duty to correct inappropriate behavior. The Deacons in the parishes I attend don’t even assume the Orans position, reserving that for the celebrant as is proper but that doesn’t seem to phase the congregation one bit. In their defense, they have not been told it isn’t appropriate!
 
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