Vatican Loyalty

[Fairwinds]

I was raised a Baptist and I was always told how anti-american Catholics are which is of course ridiculous. The reason is because I was always told that we have an allegiance to the Church of Rome over the United States. I don’t think that’s actually dogma or anything but hypothetically if the U.S. were to say take up arms against the Holy See we would be obligated to defend it, right? I’m perfectly fine with swearing allegiance to the Pope over the President or the Constitution any day.

no one swears an oath to the president. at least I never did.

that said, we’d have to fight the italians, who are responsible for the Vatican’s defense. a coup de main by some air assault unit would settle it. the italians wouldn’t intervene lest the Vatican be reduced to rubble by street fighting.

 

[CarolNoel]

Agree with you 1,000%. I am american by accident of birth, but I am God’s child before all else. I could never turn a blind eye to the Holy See in the name of nationalism. I mean the Church has endured for nearly 2000 years when no country has existed as long.

BTW - hope you are doing better.

Yes!

 

[rfournier103]

God, Country, Family. I know many who would put family before country, but I tend to put the needs/best interests of the many before my/our own selfish interests.

God, Jesus, and the Holy See were here long before the United States; and when I depart terra firma, there’s nothing Congress, the Supreme Court, or the President will be able to do for me. Not to mention the moral high ground the Church has… The moral divide between the Church and the U.S. seems to be getting ever wider.

If only there were a Divine guarantee that the gates of hell would not prevail against the U.S…

 

[quiet52]

I was raised a Baptist and I was always told how anti-american Catholics are which is of course ridiculous. The reason is because **I was always told that we have an allegiance to the Church of Rome over the United States. **I don’t think that’s actually dogma or anything but hypothetically if the U.S. were to say take up arms against the Holy See we would be obligated to defend it, right? I’m perfectly fine with swearing allegiance to the Pope over the President or the Constitution any day.

It’s interesting that you referred to the Catholic Church as the “Church of Rome.” That’s generally not how we identify ourselves. We belong to Christ and His Church, not to Rome. Spiritually and practically, our most important citizenship is within the Kingdom of God here on earth, and hopefully eternally in Heaven.

The Vatican is not the Church herself, but is essential administratively and in other ways. Just as Washington DC is essential to the U.S. administratively (well, at least sometimes).

 

[Ridgerunner]

Of possibly passing interest.

Some years ago, the Vatican considered the possibility of physical threats to Vatican City, and particularly to its priceless documents; the very history and thought of Christ’s Church throughout the millenia. Back then, the threat was undoubtedly communism. One would not be foolish to think today it would be Islam.

So, they microfilmed all the documents there and sent them to be stored in a special library at St. Louis University in St. Louis, Mo. As far as I know, they are kept to date. Likely they have digitized them as well now, and there might be secondary storage locations.

Just incredible, unimaginable documents! Lots of scholars of all kinds go there to study them. Not surprisingly, one needs special permission to examine them.

 

[bben15]

I’m going to be honest with you. Even if all the Catholics took up arms in support of the Vatican, the United States would still conquer it in a minute. About 100 Papal Guardsmen and a few Vatican police officers aren’t going to stop the United States military.

Plus, since the Papal Guard is part of the Swiss Army, wouldn’t the U.S. be in a state of war with Switzerland if it attacked the Vatican?

 

[quiet52]

I’m going to be honest with you. Even if all the Catholics took up arms in support of the Vatican, the United States would still conquer it in a minute. About 100 Papal Guardsmen and a few Vatican police officers aren’t going to stop the United States military.

Plus, since the Papal Guard is part of the Swiss Army, wouldn’t the U.S. be in a state of war with Switzerland if it attacked the Vatican?

The U.S. government has demonstrated quite well that it can freely attack the Catholic Church without consequence, without attacking the Vatican.

As Archbishop Chaput has said, “CATHOLICS, WAKE UP!”
ncregister.com/daily-news/archbishop-chaput-religious-liberty-depends-on-lay-faithful-not-bishops/

 

[JReducation]

I’m going to be honest with you. Even if all the Catholics took up arms in support of the Vatican, the United States would still conquer it in a minute. About 100 Papal Guardsmen and a few Vatican police officers aren’t going to stop the United States military.

Plus, since the Papal Guard is part of the Swiss Army, wouldn’t the U.S. be in a state of war with Switzerland if it attacked the Vatican?

No no no! The Swiss Guard are the army of Vatican City State. It is not part of the Swiss army. To become a Swiss Guard one must be Swiss (obviously), served in the Swiss army, Catholic, be a trained and superior sniper and marksman, have completed higher education and meet certain physical requirements. The Swiss Guard are mercenaries. They have nothing to do with the Swiss army.

 

[Fairwinds]

I’m going to be honest with you. Even if all the Catholics took up arms in support of the Vatican, the United States would still conquer it in a minute. About 100 Papal Guardsmen and a few Vatican police officers aren’t going to stop the United States military.

Plus, since the Papal Guard is part of the Swiss Army, wouldn’t the U.S. be in a state of war with Switzerland if it attacked the Vatican?

we’d be at war with Italy, which is responsible for the military defense of the Vatican. as someone else pointed out, the Guard is not a Swiss army formation.

for what its worth, there’s a overwhelming probability that the seizure of the Vatican has been war-gamed by the Dept. of Defense, and there are contingency plans somewhere, just as there are contingency plans for all kinds of unlikely scenarios.

 

[Cider]

What most governments fear is that they know Catholics will not abandon their loyalty to the Church over that to their country. God ALWAYS comes before country. It is why all dictatorial regimes fear the Catholic Church and her members. They know it will be hard to impossible for them to choose country over Church.

The Vatican is the visible seat of the Church and the Pope her leader. This makes the Pope a VERY powerful person, even if he does not wield that power often. If the Pope said do not vote for Obama, most Catholics would not vote for Obama. The same is not necessarily true if the President is doing the asking.

Catholics are also supposed to have a manifest social doctrine as well. Meaning that when we hold political office we do not abandon our faith and beliefs. The social kingship of Christ is supposed to reign (meaning we make Catholic truth the social law). This is why you see such pushback from protestants who naturally put more faith in the state.

Well said!

 

[rfournier103]

What most governments fear is that they know Catholics will not abandon their loyalty to the Church over that to their country. God ALWAYS comes before country. It is why all dictatorial regimes fear the Catholic Church and her members. They know it will be hard to impossible for them to choose country over Church.

The Vatican is the visible seat of the Church and the Pope her leader. This makes the Pope a VERY powerful person, even if he does not wield that power often. If the Pope said do not vote for Obama, most Catholics would not vote for Obama. The same is not necessarily true if the President is doing the asking.

Catholics are also supposed to have a manifest social doctrine as well. Meaning that when we hold political office we do not abandon our faith and beliefs. The social kingship of Christ is supposed to reign (meaning we make Catholic truth the social law). This is why you see such pushback from protestants who naturally put more faith in the state.

Well said!

Catholic Answers needs a “like” button like Facebook has. I’m hitting the “like button”.

 

[porthos11]

No no no! The Swiss Guard are the army of Vatican City State. It is not part of the Swiss army. To become a Swiss Guard one must be Swiss (obviously), served in the Swiss army, Catholic, be a trained and superior sniper and marksman, have completed higher education and meet certain physical requirements. The Swiss Guard are mercenaries. They have nothing to do with the Swiss army.

More accurately, the Swiss Guard are a military unit of the Holy See, not Vatican City. What Vatican City has is the civilian Corps of Gendarmerie, but that is a police force, not military. For practical purposes though, because the Swiss Guard is within the boundaries of Vatican City, they are commonly regarded as the “Vatican’s” military. In actuality, defense of Vatican City is the responsibility of the Republic of Italy.