Vatican observatory

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Ghosty:
Wow, oriel36, you sure hate yourself some Newton.

I have to say that this is, by *far, the *funniest thread I have ever read on the Catholic Answers Forums. I don’t want the mods to ever close it. In fact, I want them to give Oriel36 his own forum. This stuff is brilliant. You and the Timecube guy, timecube.com/, need to get together!
This is what you believe via Newton and it is incorrect

hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

Most people happen to be correct insofar as the Earth’s constant axial rotation as an independent motion is 24 hours exactly even if they are unfamiliar with the Equation of Time correction and the principles which link together terrestial longitudes , the motions of the Earth and the Sun as a stationary reference in creating the pace we see as the hands sweep over the face of a clock.A clock is registering the equable pace of constant rotation as 15 degrees per hour and 24 hours for a full revolution.Simple and exquisite !

Catholics should not be fools on this simple matter nor cowards.
 
This is what you believe via Newton and it is incorrect
What do I believe? You’ve lost me, Oriel.
Catholics should not be fools on this simple matter nor cowards.
Can we go the middle-way of just not caring?
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
The Earth does not rotate at all, the universe is rotating around the fixed Earth in 24h. This is the wisdom of old!
The Coriolis force is created by the Devil to fool us into believing, the Earth rotates. Do not listen to those lies!
Stars are not suns, they are holes in a giant sphere. Behind that sphere there lies Hell, and the fires of Hell shine through those holes. Really! Do not listen to satanic astronomers who try to convince you of anything else.
Einstein was sent by the Devil to spread the foul teachings of relativism. It is all false, the Devil manipulates clocks and trajectories of lightbeams all the time to fool us, so we believe in the satanic space-time continuum.
Quantum physics is a satanic lie! Therefore lasers do not really work. The music played by a CD player, is actually produced by the Devil…

:whacky:
 
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AnAtheist:
The Earth does not rotate at all, the universe is rotating around the fixed Earth in 24h. This is the wisdom of old!
The Coriolis force is created by the Devil to fool us into believing, the Earth rotates. Do not listen to those lies!
Stars are not suns, they are holes in a giant sphere. Behind that sphere there lies Hell, and the fires of Hell shine through those holes. Really! Do not listen to satanic astronomers who try to convince you of anything else.
Einstein was sent by the Devil to spread the foul teachings of relativism. It is all false, the Devil manipulates clocks and trajectories of lightbeams all the time to fool us, so we believe in the satanic space-time continuum.
Quantum physics is a satanic lie! Therefore lasers do not really work. The music played by a CD player, is actually produced by the Devil…

:whacky:
You have nobody but yourselves to blame for creating a fiction out of Newtonian ambiguities.The Newtonian fraud was to shift the principles behind the 24 hour day from the exquisite Equation of Time format allied to axial longitudes to Flamsteed’s sidereal format which is little more than a cartoon conception of planetary motion.

“Absolute time, in astronomy, is distinguished from relative, by the equation or correlation of the vulgar time. For the natural days are truly unequal, though they are commonly considered as equal and used for a measure of time; astronomers correct this inequality for their more accurate deducing of the celestial motions.”

members.tripod.com/~gravitee/definitions.htm#time

Relativists have been running around like idiots declaring ‘time is not absolute’ but all Newton is describing is the difference between the natural unequal day and the equable 24 hour day via the Equation of Time correction.Our astronomical ancestors would be bewildered at contemporary stupidity for they knew that there is no external reference for axial rotation as an independent motion hence you have to identify ‘absolute time’ as the 24 hour clock day.

Only when Newton goes to describe his perspective for planetary motion from a geocentric and heliocentric point of view does the snake-in -the-grass unethical maneuver emerge.

Everyone got fooled but I assure you I am not by either Newton or any of the exotic spacetime nonsense as an extension of Newton.

Absolute time = 24 hour day

Relative time = natural unequal day

Equation of Time = Difference between the natural unequal day and 24 hour day determined at noon .

Any questions?.
 
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Ghosty:
What do I believe? You’ve lost me, Oriel.

Can we go the middle-way of just not caring?
Catholicism relies on great balances which must be constantly maintained and adjusted,our late Pope was a great man in this respect.Mediocrity on the other hand is mediocrity and the empirical tendencies like a pale imitator of gnostic tendencies always tend to the same mediocrity from which they emerged.Newton denied the Trinity and that is that,he gets the stamp of mediocrity.

The Johaninne community which was absorbed by the Apostolic Church knew the danger of accepting mediocrity within its ranks and with the empirical apologists adopting or ‘converting’ to Catholicism the exquisite beauty and simplicity of love based belief may be undermined by narcissistic philosophy which goes nowhere and does nothing.

Not care,let us see what the Johaninne author said about mediocrity and fence sitting.

"Write this to the angel of the church people in Laodicea: Here are the words of the one whose name is Truth. What he says can be trusted. He is the one who began all that God made.

15`He says, "I know what you do. I know that you are neither cold nor hot. And I wish that you were cold or hot.

16So I will spit you out of my mouth, because you are only warm and not hot or cold. 17You say, `I am rich and have many things. I need nothing.’ You do not know that you are in trouble and need help."
 
I have to agree with Ghosty on this one. This is the one of the oddest things I have read in that I do not understand more than a few words and yet find it hilarious. As a linguist, sciences are not my forte and so I don’t get all the stuff about the length of the day. But does it really matter? After all, time is just a tool. As Christians we should remember that God does not have the limits of time so He probably doesn’t mind HOW we calculate a day, week, month, year, etc.

Thanks to Dave and Steve for trying to make a seemingly unintelligble argument at least vaguely understandable for those of us who have no post 16 science education. I still do not understand what the Vatican or any other Christians have done wrong in daring to use tools for time but at least I’ve had a laugh:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
Dear Oriel,

I believe your condition is called scrupulosity. Though you may feel such things as you talk about affects your faith (salvation?), it really does not.

You speak of balances that must be maintained. Rest assured that the Church, along with the rest of the world, has taken your minute distinctions into account. I believe we add an extra day to the year once every so often in order to make up for the discrepancy you are complaining about.

So the balance is maintained. Rest easy.

God bless
 
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teresas1979:
I have to agree with Ghosty on this one. This is the one of the oddest things I have read in that I do not understand more than a few words and yet find it hilarious. As a linguist, sciences are not my forte and so I don’t get all the stuff about the length of the day. But does it really matter? After all, time is just a tool. As Christians we should remember that God does not have the limits of time so He probably doesn’t mind HOW we calculate a day, week, month, year, etc.
Newton backslid into something worse than geocentricity,the idea that you can choose the idea that the Sun around the Earth is the same as the Earth around the Sun.In the early 20th century this became relativistic/ homocentric ‘frame of reference’ a truly awful egocentric term passed off as a human achievement.

The empirical guys have created a fiction surrounding the Church and Galileo’s adherence to Copernicus and simpleminded Catholics apparently go along with it notwithstanding that Newton’s astronomical conception basically demolishes pure Copernican/Keplerian heliocentricity.

catholicleague.org/research/galileo.html

I am attempting to save Copernican/Keplerian heliocentricity from something worse than geocentricity - Newtonian quasi-geocentricity as a thin end of a big relativistic wedge that leads to empirical absurdity and insanity.

Einstein thought it was a shame that light emitted by stars was going to waste so he bent the whole universe and this is supposed to be an achievement.Is there not one Catholic who can read Albert’s premise and find it absolutely hilarious as any reasonable person would and then go back and review where that stupidity emerged via Newton.

“This conception is in itself not very satisfactory. It is still less satisfactory because it leads to the result that the light emitted by the stars and also individual stars of the stellar system are perpetually passing out into infinite space, never to return, and without ever again coming into interaction with other objects of nature. Such a finite material universe would be destined to become gradually but systematically impoverished.”

bartleby.com/173/30.html

Hilarious !, Newton’s basic error snowballed into the relativistic monster and while Catholics should find it hilarious ultimately it comes at the expense of the once noble discipline of astronomy.
 
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GAssisi:
Dear Oriel,

I believe your condition is called scrupulosity. Though you may feel such things as you talk about affects your faith (salvation?), it really does not.

You speak of balances that must be maintained. Rest assured that the Church, along with the rest of the world, has taken your minute distinctions into account. I believe we add an extra day to the year once every so often in order to make up for the discrepancy you are complaining about.

So the balance is maintained. Rest easy.

God bless
Whatever god you are blessing me with it certainly does not come from my Catholic heritage.

You want the convenience of faith as one thing and science as something else but Catholic tradition has always counted among its participants,people of extraordinary intuitive abilities such as Copernicus and Steno,one in astronomy the other in geology.

Faith prohibits a person from lapsing into insincerity when studying the investigation of natural phenomena yet for those who have a God given gift through Jesus to have great understanding in knowing the difference between true insights and outright fraud,perhaps you are fortunate not to know the stomach-turning hoax played on people who can’t defend themselves or know no better.

I always tell people to go outside and experience the Copernican insight rather than treat it as a paper fact ,then and only then will then detest the empirical view of Newton which says that the Sun around the Earth is a valid mathematical proposition.

Are Catholics that easily fooled by a pretensious hypocrite like Newton who denied the Trinity,you certainly do fall for for the empirical myth that faith is one thing and science something else and that is invincible ignorance (your words in another thread).
 
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Ghosty:
This stuff is brilliant. You and the Timecube guy, timecube.com/, need to get together!
Ghosty, thankyou for giving me the hint to understand all of this. At first, I thought there was some kind of Eastern vs. Western philosophical bridge that I could not cross (even more so with the Timecube guy). But then I got to the part where the Timecube guy admits:
Timecube Guy:
My wisdom so antiquates known knowledge, that a psychiatrist examining my behavior, eccentric by his academic single corner knowledge, knows no course other than to judge me schizoprenic[sic].
This is more sad than funny, I think.
 
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Stevereeno:
Ghosty, thankyou for giving me the hint to understand all of this. At first, I thought there was some kind of Eastern vs. Western philosophical bridge that I could not cross (even more so with the Timecube guy). But then I got to the part where the Timecube guy says:

More sad than funny, I think.
With all due respect,you are the people who believe the Earth rotates through 360 degrees in 23 hours 56 min 04 sec when most people know it is 24 hours exactly .Even if people are not sure about the Equation of Time correction which made moden accurate 24 hour clocks possible through the noon correction they can enjoy the story -

sailtexas.com/long.html

Empirical freaks who like multiple universes and dimensions,warped space and time travel may enjoy their sidereal value of 23 hours 56 min 04 sec with the large support of ‘authorities’.

hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

The Earth’s revolution on its axis is a single event,there is only one correct value that would provide a cornerstone for human achievement.Newton adopted the wrong value,case closed.
 
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oriel36:
The Earth’s revolution on its axis is a single event,there is only one correct value that would provide a cornerstone for human achievement.Newton adopted the wrong value,case closed.
You don’t get that, do you?
There is a difference between the revolution relative to the sun’s position and relative to a distant star’s position, because the Earth is revolving around the sun too, while the sun’s position remains fixed towards that star. Fixed at least over the periods of time we talk about. A sidereal day is due to TWO OVERLAID revolutions.
Build some aiming device (e.g. telescope with crosshairs), aim it at a distant star, then take a watch and MEASURE the time it takes for that star to reappear again in the crosshairs. Perhaps then you will stop uttering that nonsense.
Or go back to school, 8th grade or something, and relearn some basic geometry.
 
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AnAtheist:
You don’t get that, do you?
There is a difference between the revolution relative to the sun’s position and relative to a distant star’s position, because the Earth is revolving around the sun too, while the sun’s position remains fixed towards that star. Fixed at least over the periods of time we talk about. A sidereal day is due to TWO OVERLAID revolutions.
Build some aiming device (e.g. telescope with crosshairs), aim it at a distant star, then take a watch and MEASURE the time it takes for that star to reappear again in the crosshairs. Perhaps then you will stop uttering that nonsense.
Or go back to school, 8th grade or something, and relearn some basic geometry.
That why you are an empirical dummy,you can’t reason from the fact that a watch/clock was developed from the principle of the 24 hour day using the Sun and only the Sun as a reference for the axial rotation of the Earth .Axial rotation as an independent motion has one and only one correct value and certainly it does not need the word ‘relative to’ attached to the rotation.Newton got it wrong and as for the numbskulls in the early 20th century well…

The really intricate part is recognising that the pre-Copernican ‘average’ 24 hour day was derived from the Equation of Time correction using the noon reference which naturally registers a natural inequality with each rotation of the Earth on its axis,within Copernican heliocentrisnm that average day translates into constant axial rotation at 15 degrees per hour and 24 hours in total.

What do you think,that they found a clock underneath a rock and then timed the return of a star to the same position as representing constant axial rotation of the Earth as an independent motion !. Maybe another Catholic can explain to you why it is not a good idea to link the Earth’s rotation directly to the return of a star to the same position but that is exactly what Flamsteed did and Newton built on it.

You guys went crazy with the word ‘relative’ ,again the Earth’s axial rotation is a single and independent motion.The value is 24 hours exactly or 15 degrees per hour or 4 min per degree of rotation.

Did you not like Albert’s reason for curving the universe,he thought it was a shame light was going to waste,how dumb can you get!!!.It must have ruined his day when galactic structure was discovered in the mid 1920’s for goodness me,did he love his fixed stars just like Isaac.

" This view is not in harmony with the theory of Newton. The latter theory rather requires that the universe should have a kind of centre in which the density of the stars is a maximum, and that as we proceed outwards from this centre the group-density of the stars should diminish, until finally, at great distances, it is succeeded by an infinite region of emptiness. The stellar universe ought to be a finite island in the infinite ocean of space. 1"

bartleby.com/173/30.html

Btw,Newton ideas on the ‘fixed stars’ are fairly explicit but it is bad enough dealing with Newtonian spindoctoring to descend into absurd relativistic sopindoctoring.

“Cor. 2. And since these stars are liable to no sensible parallax from the annual motion of the earth, they can have no force, because of their immense distance, to produce any sensible effect in our system. Not to mention that the fixed stars, every where promiscuously dispersed in the heavens, by their contrary actions destroy their mutual actions, by Prop. LXX, Book I.”[Principia]

If you ever find out whether Isaac or Albert was a bigger liar I suggest you take a look at these magnificent stellar islands which neither of that pair knew about.Albert was interested in homocentricity and his statement above reflects it .

rcopticalsystems.com/gallery/m100.jpg

Go ahead and read Einstein,that excerpt is just about right for his era before they discovered galaxies,you can see him lie about Newton and deny galactic structure at the same time.
 
There must be a more appropriate place to have this debate. Isn’t there a time space continuum forum out there somewhere?

Chuck
 
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oriel36:
Do any of you realise that I am trying to save astronomy from Newtonian insicerity and wrongheadedness or the truly awful cartoon abstractions of the early 20th century.If
perhaps your case would be better argued on the physics and astronomy forum instead of the Catholic apologetics forum.
 
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puzzleannie:
perhaps your case would be better argued on the physics and astronomy forum instead of the Catholic apologetics forum.
Catholic apologetics !, do you know what you are actually doing or do I have to spell it out.

The empirical tradition or scientific method has made certain that fellow Catholics have accepted the myth of the division between the investigation of natural phenomena as one thing and Spiritual matters as something else. Part of that fiction arises from Copernican heliocentricity and Galileo but if you were really into Catholic apologetics you would have understood the elements are highly technical and nothing like the empirical crowd would have you believe.They don’t even subscribe to heliocentricity for goodness sake and you wish to behave like an empirical lapdog in appealing to take this matter to a 'science ’ forum and not keep it here where it belongs.

The empirical tradition is basically a pale imitation of knowledge based gnosticism and none of you are capable of contending with it !.Do you want to believe as the empiricists do that if you begin in doubt you end in certainties through experimentation thereby ‘knowing the mind of god’ is grounds for a valid contention with the rich Christian heritage which stresses that things appear as hazy outlines but with faith and love become clearer.

Go ahead and set yourself up as a stool pidgeon for the atheists and every half-wit empiricist that comes along but whatever god you bless people with, it certainly is not the God of Christ and Christianity.
 
I can honestly say that I have never heard of anyone castigating the Church for accepting scientific theories as put forward by bona fide scientists. Usually, the Church is castigated for NOT accepting scientific theories as final and irrefutable.

I think you have gotten yourself into a tizzy over a non-issue. No one of my acquaintance cares in the least how the calendar was devised or knows very much about the influence of modern scientific thought has had on Christian teaching. The eternal truths that lead men to salvation which the Church has taught for 2000 years have not changed, and that is all that is really important when push comes to shove. It is unfortunate that so many people have fuzzy ideas about the true nature of man because of swallowing evolution whole, though. And that is truly troubling.

I do know that no Catholic is obliged to accept without question whatever scientific theory is currently driving scientific investigations. We are to see spirit and matter as very much connected. After all, we believe quite firmly in just such a confluence. We call it the Incarnation.
 
Seriously folks, I think we need to let this rest. I am not a psychiatrist, but I believe there is a poster on this thread that matches, at least, 3/4 of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia. Please, don’t add fuel to the fire.

mentalhealth.com/book/p42-sc2.html
 
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Della:
I can honestly say that I have never heard of anyone castigating the Church for accepting scientific theories as put forward by bona fide scientists. Usually, the Church is castigated for NOT accepting scientific theories as final and irrefutable.

.
How do you know a bona fide scientist from an insincere one,would you know only by consensus or by actually going through the premises ?. If you say that scientific things are are beyond your understanding how do you know the theories and hypothesis are correct just like the Piltdown man hoax ?.If a Christian denies the Trinity how do you accept his work as is the case with Newton ?.

There are highly technical arguments behind the Galileo incident and especially the use of hypothesis which had a very specific astronomical meaning in that era rather than the empirically enforced and diluted version that serves no good end and is ultimately anti-Christian in tendencies.

Contemporaries invariably attach the modern version of ‘mere hypothesis’ to what the Church finally dictated in regard to Copernicus but the Church would still be correct because the methods of Copernicus and Kepler based on their hypothesis within the astronomical meaning are still valid while the Newtonian agenda which introduced hypothetical gravitational causes are technically incompetent ever at a basic level.Build a version of planetary motion on the wrong rotation rate of the Earth is a dead start as an astronomical hypothesis,it is a cartoon in other words.

Even the principles behind the axial rotation of the Earth as an independent motion are intricate and exquisite and I allow that it would be easy to make a mistake like Flamsteed did but I am certain that the Catholic person of reasonable intelligence would rather see the error corrected than continue with an empirical lie.

hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

Why would I discuss matters of Christian heritage with creationists when scientists believe in something even worse,in this case missing the principles which link the disciplines of geometry,astronomy and clocks together.Would you ?.
 
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Stevereeno:
Seriously folks, I think we need to let this rest. I am not a psychiatrist, but I believe there is a poster on this thread that matches, at least, 3/4 of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia. Please, don’t add fuel to the fire.

mentalhealth.com/book/p42-sc2.html
Empiricists have had a great time with the creationists who have given them a platform to attack the simple faith of Christians as anything other than an unwanted evolutionary symptom born of ignorance and superstition in the absence of scientific knowledge.

Turns out that scientists are no better or worse than creationists for the error is pretty obvious even if it is intricate to untangle the various elements and seperate axial rotation via the Equation of Time format from the troublesome later sidereal format based on the calendar system.

If you want to be an empirical stool pidgeon then don’t remain a Catholic.
 
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