Vatican observatory

[oriel36]

Della:

t is unfortunate that so many people have fuzzy ideas about the true nature of man because of swallowing evolution whole, though. And that is truly troubling.

.

You filter all things through the empirical method which in itself is an invalid means to approach the natural balances we see in celestial,evolutionary,geological and geometric things we observe in nature.Darwinism is clearly within the empirical tradition so why complain that it is troubling and at the same time insist that astronomy which also has been brought within the empirical umbrella is less relevent or belongs somewhere else.

Discussions which center on Genesis and creation/evolution are discussed in great detail by thousands but the basis of the contention between science/religion exists in the point of departure for the empirical method and especially Newton’s Principia.It is fine when scientists contest with the creationists but when they themselves cling to a most basic and awful error with a very specific point of origin, nobody wishes to thrash the issue out, not even Catholics in whose best interests it is so.

What do you want,to think like the empirical crowd want you to think or to actually do something productive for Christ and Christianity ?.

 

[Ghosty]

Seriously folks, I think we need to let this rest. I am not a psychiatrist, but I believe there is a poster on this thread that matches, at least, 3/4 of the positive symptoms of schizophrenia. Please, don’t add fuel to the fire.

Indeed. I’m no psychiatrist either, but I work with schizophrenics a LOT, and this is textbook. It’s a very difficult and sad mental condition, and he needs our prayers. It can be amusing to watch when it’s safe and innocent, but you’re not going to convince him of anything by arguing with him. He’s not arguing because of a rational dispute, but because the condition causes people to latch on to seemingly innocuous things and build on them to the point of literally encyclopedias worth of non-sensical arguments that make perfect sense to the schizophrenic. To put it simply, logic doesn’t work the same way in a schizophrenic’s brain, and that’s completely innocent on their part, and they tend to have a very difficult time understanding why others can’t follow them. They see connections that just aren’t significant, or just aren’t there. Paired with the paranoia of seperation that the condition can cause, it’s a very, very heavy cross to bear. Many develop a sense that they can see “deeper” than most, and that’s why others don’t understand them, and they often try to prosthelytize to the “ignorant masses” out of a sense of duty.

Again, it’s amusing to watch, but you honestly won’t get anywhere arguing with him. Take this as an interesting study in schizophrenic behavior and say a few prayers. That’s my advice.

 

[Katie1723]

oriel36:

Empiricists have had a great time with the creationists who have given them a platform to attack the simple faith of Christians as anything other than an unwanted evolutionary symptom born of ignorance and superstition in the absence of scientific knowledge.

Turns out that scientists are no better or worse than creationists for the error is pretty obvious even if it is intricate to untangle the various elements and seperate axial rotation via the Equation of Time format from the troublesome later sidereal format based on the calendar system.

If you want to be an empirical stool pidgeon then don’t remain a Catholic.

Methinks he doth protest too much !
Kathy

 

[neophyte]

Ghosty:

Wow, oriel36, you sure hate yourself some Newton.

I have to say that this is, by *far, the *funniest thread I have ever read on the Catholic Answers Forums. I don’t want the mods to ever close it. In fact, I want them to give Oriel36 his own forum. This stuff is brilliant. You and the Timecube guy, timecube.com/, need to get together!

Ghosty, GREAT site, where did you dig that lunacy up? It’s just as crazy as the Heaven’s Gate stuff was.

I’ve long since gotten tired of this nonsense from oriel36. All he does is post the same quotes from Newton and rail about how it’s all lies and civilization will end because of it. Just ignore him, and if he tries to hijack your thread ask him to please stop.

 

[Ghosty]

TimeCube is a “theory” put forth by a Mr. Gene Ray, a man who has given lectures at MIT. As has been pointed out, he even admits that he’s been diagnosed as schizophrenic, but that doesn’t stop him from spreading “the truth”.

I’m a minor follower of online schizophrenic rantings, as they can be a fascinating insight into the illness, and with the advent of the internet there has been an an opportunity for a wider exposure to them. A number of schizophrenics have latched on to the internet as a place to rant to a willing audience. They often pop up on message boards, and some people who are amused carry their “message” to others. That’s how I heard about Time Cube from online friends, and that website is often used as an inside joke when someone goes on an unintelligable rant, even if they’re normally quite coherent. People might say “Looks like you fell into the Time Cube for a minute there” or some other remark. It’s just part of the internet sub-culture.

On a game forum some years back, a person named Temnix appeared who was convinced that the makers of this fantasy game knew the reality of the world, and were secretly trying to inform the fans of the game about THE TRUTH, and we were treating it like it was just a game. This person posted about 100 messages in a two day period, with varying degrees of response. Most people just stood by and watched with their mouths dropped open. Finally, Temnix just disappeared, never to be heard from again. It always fascinates me when another one pops up and starts dropping their theories, I just didn’t expect to find one here. It’s almost like a reverse Easter-egg hunt, where the eggs find you.

 

[AnAtheist]

oriel36:

You guys went crazy with the word ‘relative’ ,again the Earth’s axial rotation is a single and independent motion.

Independent of what?
And how do you measure one full rotation? Towards the sun? Then you get a solar day. Towards the star hemisphere? Then you get a sidereal day.
And: Are you aware that the Earth’s rotation is slowing down?

Did you not like Albert’s reason for curving the universe,he thought it was a shame light was going to waste,how dumb can you get!!!.It must have ruined his day when galactic structure was discovered in the mid 1920’s for goodness me,did he love his fixed stars just like Isaac.

Since you do not even understand simple geometry, I strongly doubt you comprehend a curved space. Galactic structures have nothing to do with the sidereal day. Granted the “fixed stars” are not fixed at all, but their movement can be neglected over the small periods of time we are talking about. It takes thousands of years before the constellations change, the galactic movement has little impact in 24h.
On top of that, we could contruct a “galactic day”, that represent the Earth’s rotation with respect to the galactic center, that will differ from 24h and from 23h56m…

If you ever find out whether Isaac or Albert was a bigger liar I suggest you take a look at these magnificent stellar islands which neither of that pair knew about. Go ahead and read Einstein,that excerpt is just about right for his era before they discovered galaxies,you can see him lie about Newton and deny galactic structure at the same time.

Sorry for the boasting, but I have STUDIED cosmology at the university and I dare say I have very UNDERSTOOD Newton’s and Einstein’s theories. You on the other hand, do not even understand, how a roations works, so instead of telling other people to read Einstein, you should read a 7th grade physics book.

 

[oriel36]

AnAtheist:

Independent of what?
And how do you measure one full rotation? Towards the sun? Then you get a solar day. Towards the star hemisphere? Then you get a sidereal day.
And: Are you aware that the Earth’s rotation is slowing down?

.

As an atheist you should be jumping for joy,not a single Catholic picked up on discerning the Earth’s axial rotation as an independent motion free of its variable orbital motion around the Sun.

The wisdom of our pre-Copernican ancestors was to determine an equable or average 24 hour day and correct the inequality at each noon using the Equation of Time correction by adding or subtracting minutes and seconds from observed natural noon which vaied with each rotation ,Monday turns into Tuesday,Tuesday into Wednesday or one equable 24 hour day turns into the next 24 hour day ect.

After Copernicus and Kepler you could say that axial rotation is constant and attribute the natural inequality for each rotation to the Sun via the variation in orbital motion ( Kepler’s second law).

As axial rotation is already fixed to the 24 hour/360 degree equivalency at 15 degrees per hour via the Equation of Time correction,there is absolutely NO WAY that you can substitute another value for axial rotation as a single independent motion such as 23 hours 56 min 04 sec.

You cannot prove axial rotation to be constant by using an external reference which is exactly what Flamsteed did,Newton built on Flamsteed’s simpleminded reasoning and now we have 300 years of empirical rubbish surrounding the once noble discipline of astronomy.

Is there not one single Catholic capable of noting that as far as the rotation of the Earth goes as a single and independent motion that you cannot pick and choose the value you assign to that rotation ?.Unfortunately empirical freaks chose the wrong value .

hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JennyChen.shtml

 

[AnAtheist]

oriel36:

You cannot prove axial rotation to be constant by using an external reference.

That is of course nonsense, but if you say so. Then how about measuring the axial rotation by using a Foucault’s pendulum? Care to guess the outcome?

Again, for the slowminded:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5b/300px-Sidereal_day_(prograde).png

See?
1 - now
2 - 23h56m+ later after one full rotation
3 - 3min+ later than 2, the sun reappears at the same spot in the sky

 

[oriel36]

AnAtheist:

That is of course nonsense, but if you say so. Then how about measuring the axial rotation by using a Foucault’s pendulum? Care to guess the outcome?

Again, for the slowminded:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5b/300px-Sidereal_day_(prograde).png

See?
1 - now
2 - 23h56m+ later after one full rotation
3 - 3min+ later than 2, the sun reappears at the same spot in the sky

When great men,do you hear,when great men checked the accuracy of their watches at noon using the necessary Equation of Time correction they knew that the lenght of day was different for each rotation.

homepage.ntlworld.com/michael.j.harley/eoftime.htm

Your graphic above determines that a location rotates back from position 1 to 3 every 24 hours when for millenia it was known that no such equable reference existed hence the necessity of the Equation of Time correction.

As Newtonian mechanics and his hideous mechanical motions of the planets rely on Flamsteeds linking of the Earth’s rotation directly to a ‘fixed star’ reference it is worthwhile for Catholics and Christians to review where all this relativistic sci-fi garbage of warped space and time travel comes from.What do you think,the Christian faith is based on a cartoon god and think Catholics are fools.You have the support of Catholics so you may be right because so far I am isolated on this very,very important matter.

Here is a good place to begin in getting over your empirical brainwashing and learn how the geocentric average 24 hour day became constant axial rotation at 15 degres per hour and 24 hours/360 degrees in total within a heliocentric setting.

"After Harrison developed his chronometer, British ships would find their position by observing the time and the height of the Sun at Local Apparent Noon. The height of the Sun would produce the ship’s Latitude. The time of Local Apparent Noon, recorded as 12:00 local time, was compared to the time back in Greenwich as shown on Harrison’s chronometer and the difference would produce the ship’s longitude.

Well, almost. Back at the beginning of the Longitude section, I said that it takes an average time of 24 hours for the Earth to rotate 360 degrees. The third and last idea needed for longitude is the Equation of Time.

Whenever I’ve mentioned clock time, I’ve called it average time. That’s because the time that everyone keeps for their daily affairs is an average value. But if you measure the length of the day by timing the exact amount of time that is required to go from LAN (Local Apparent Noon) on one day, to LAN on the next day, you discover a curious thing: the length of the day changes slowly. Starting with the clock day equal to the actual Sun day, the Sun day gets slightly longer, then slightly shorter until the clock day and the Sun day are of equal length again. The process continues, but this time the Sun day get shorter first, then longer. Don’t confuse this changing *day *length with the seasonal change in daylight. I’m referring to changes in the whole day, light and dark together. Clock time and Sun time are equal in length only four times during the year, on the other days they are different by as much as 16.5 minutes"

pbs.org/wgbh/nova/teachers/ideas/sammons/packet.html

 

[AnAtheist]

oriel36:

When great men,do you hear,when great men checked the accuracy of their watches at noon using the necessary Equation of Time correction they knew that the lenght of day was different for each rotation.

Your great men all had nuclear watches then?
Oh wait, those things cannot work, quantum physics is a lie.

Your graphic above determines that a location rotates back from position 1 to 3 every 24 hours when for millenia it was known that no such equable reference existed hence the necessity of the Equation of Time correction.

Are that the same millenia, when it was known, that venesection can cure almost any disease?

Here is a good place to begin in getting over your empirical brainwashing and learn how the geocentric average 24 hour day became constant axial rotation at 15 degres per hour and 24 hours/360 degrees in total within a heliocentric setting.

Right. Stop believing in empirical nonsense. Do not believe in the law of gravity developped by the liars Newton and Einstein. Jump off a cliff, the empirical evidence that anything falls down is utter nonsense, imposed onto you by brainwashing of hideous satanic atheists, who want to spoil God’s perfect creation with evil things like geometry, mathematics, common sense and the law of gravity.
You can fly, really, there is no such thing as gravity.

 

[oriel36]

AnAtheist:

Right. Stop believing in empirical nonsense. Do not believe in the law of gravity developped by the liars Newton and Einstein. Jump off a cliff, the empirical evidence that anything falls down is utter nonsense, imposed onto you by brainwashing of hideous satanic atheists, who want to spoil God’s perfect creation with evil things like geometry, mathematics, common sense and the law of gravity.
You can fly, really, there is no such thing as gravity.

I can cover the technical ambiguities which Newton introduced to get his terrestial ballistics applied to planetary motion to work but as I am aware that great concentration is necessary to undo the damage and not many are familiar with the astronomical methods and terms that existed in his era,I have to present the error which is most obvious,his adoption of the wrong rotation rate of the Earth via Flamsteed.

I had hoped that Catholics who take a more reasoned approach to the Church,Copernicus and Galileo would do the same for Keplerian motion and Newton’s take on it.I’m sure the quaint story of the apple and gravity suits the story of how Newton 'discovered ’ gravity but technically and historically the man used an incredible array of technical ambiguities to make them fit and it presents tremendous obstacles for genuine men today.

microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/indexmag.html?http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/mag/artmar00/hooke6.html

Newton’s ‘proof’ in the Principia is written in the language of geometry where he assumes mean Sun/Earth distances rather than mean motions through the center of the planet’s orbit as astronomers previous discerned it.Shifting the geometry to mean Sun/Earth distances via the sidereal format is such a horrible maneuver, for the solar system becomes an isolated system locked in a celestial sphere.It shows up today in the exotic nonsense where ‘dark matter’ is needed to hold the galaxy together and ‘dark energy’ to permit accelerated expansion but you get what you pay for with the empirical way of doing astronomy.

Look,I am sorry that you spend your life chasing conceptual rainbows or that you are indoctrinated into accepting Newton’s take on planetary motion but why should you complain,Catholics and Christians sing the same tune without questioning the basis for the concepts and actually going through the geometry of the Newtonian view.

For goodness sake ,don’t mistake my desire to suggest that everything is within the capacity of reasonably intelligent Christian with an interest in these matters when I know there are intricate and exquisite principles that nobody can lose sight of.Unfortunately Flamsteed took a shortcut with a major principle and Newton created a conceptual fraud from the unethical adjustment of the Earth’s rotation to a constant external reference.

 

[AnAtheist]

The Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science: chronicle.com/free/v49/i21/21b02001.htm

Your paranoia fits #1,#2, #5 and #7.
And it is more entertaining then cinema.

 

[oriel36]

AnAtheist:

Your great men all had nuclear watches then?
Oh wait, those things cannot work, quantum physics is a lie.

.

I have to laugh at the way the qm guys fix the progression of dimensions and it is so easy to show where they get it wrong,at least geometrically,anyone and I mean anyone can get that one

A one dimensional line never reduces to a zero dimensional point but as usual mathematicians believe otherwise.It is perhaps more convenient for me to express this belief through the increasingly observed odd mixture of science and religion.

inner.org/meditate/living/living04.htm

As for proving that there is no lower limit for geometry which scientists call the Planck lenght,here is the basic reasoning which demonstrates that a line never reduces to a zero dimensional point (ultimately an empty term like ‘warped space’ or ‘dark energy’ ect)

“The Planck length is the scale at which classical ideas about gravity and space-time cease to be valid, and quantum effects dominate. This is the ‘quantum of length’, the smallest measurement of length with any meaning.”

physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/cuu/Value?plkl

Draw a circumference around a Planck lenght,the circumference being of course 3.141… times greater than the lenght,if you can determine a circumference you can also determine a radius which is half the original lenght and from this discrete lenght you begin again constructing a circumference around this half Planck lenght.

Bring the value of Pi into the picture,if you can create a circumference from a diameter you can also create a radius half the original Planck lenght otherwise it is tantamount to saying that Pi is a rational value.There is no determinate lenght/diameter where the Pi begins and ends but unfortunately these qm jokers not only have set a physical limit at the Planck lenght where there is none but attempt to tamper with the most fundamental constant in geometry and nature -Pi.

The lesson is ,do not set a lower limit for geometric length hence a line never reduces to a point and for goodness sake don’t try to reconcile a circumference with a center.I have seen these fools call a circumference an ‘event horizon’ and call a center a ‘singularity’ and use these tortured explanations in trying to reconcile a circumference with a center.

 

[oriel36]

AnAtheist:

The Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science: chronicle.com/free/v49/i21/21b02001.htm

Your paranoia fits #1,#2, #5 and #7.
And it is more entertaining then cinema.

Come back to me when you have shown that you understand the principles behind the axial rotation of the Earth as an independent motion and why clocks are designed around the pace of that rotation of 15 degrees per hour and 24 hours in total through 360 degrees.

You should be jumping for joy in having so many Catholics and the Vatican Observatory on your side but at least I have the history of clocks,geometry and astronomy on my side and can discern Newton’s cunning maneuever.

If you feel so confident put the thing to a poll,it is after all the most fundamental rotation of them all - the Earth on its axis.Your colleagues just happened to get it wrong and built obscene and absurd models of celestial structure and motion on that value.Einstein was a complete dummy but Isaac was the cunning one,you just don’t know any better.

 

[AnAtheist]

oriel36:

You should be jumping for joy in having so many Catholics and the Vatican Observatory on your side

Yes I am. I am jumping for joy, that so many Catholics and the Vatican Observatory are NOT ignorant fools.

but at least I have the history of clocks,geometry and astronomy on my side and can discern Newton’s cunning maneuever.

No you haven’t. I will now put you on my ignore list (that’s a premiere!!!), before I die of laughing.

 

[oriel36]

AnAtheist:

The Seven Warning Signs of Bogus Science: chronicle.com/free/v49/i21/21b02001.htm

Your paranoia fits #1,#2, #5 and #7.
And it is more entertaining then cinema.

I loved point number 7,the one that applies to Newton.

7. The discoverer must propose new laws of nature to explain an observation. A new law of nature, invoked to explain some extraordinary result, must not conflict with what is already known. If we must change existing laws of nature or propose new laws to account for an observation, it is almost certainly wrong.

Anybody with a shread of common sense will tell you that Newton fitted the sidereal format for orbital motion with a constant .986 degree orbital displacement into the Keplerian framework which is either stomach-turning , hilarious or both.

Go ahead and do yourself and everyone else a favor and try it and you will see it does’nt work.

Try to fit this -

bedford.k12.ny.us/flhs/science/images/siderealdaysm.jpg

into this

mhhe.com/physsci/astronomy/fix/student/images/04f15.jpg

You can’t and nobody can but it did’nt stop Isaac from trying.

“PHÆNOMENON IV.
That the fixed stars being at rest, the periodic times of the five
primary planets, and (whether of the sun about the earth, or) of the
earth about the sun, are in the sesquiplicate proportion of their mean distances from the sun.”

members.tripod.com/~gravitee/phaenomena.htm

 

[oriel36]

AnAtheist:

Yes I am. I am jumping for joy, that so many Catholics and the Vatican Observatory are NOT ignorant fools.

.

I once thought Catholics had a greater handle on things than their wayward denominational colleagues but it emerges that even Catholics accept the terms by which empirical freaks approach our written tradition and especially Genesis.

What did Catholic tradition ever do to deserve the ignomity and for what, for a peevish tyrant like Newton who ,by the use of ambiguities and technical jargon, forced a ballistic agenda into planetary motion that would’nt ever work in his era never mind ours.

Yes I know the matter is complicated but I never doubted that it is due to unfamiliarity and with a little effort it is possibel to see what is correct and see what is incorrect by the bluffing and blustering.

I reserve the right to speak on why it is important for Christianity within Western society.Without the gift of Christian belief it is impossible to appreceate the insights of the astronomers and geologists but there is nothing to love as Newton handles their insights.

How many people have grown up suffering from the inability to express some hidden interest or that they know something to be wrong yet do not know what.The one-size-fits-all empirical method is only a tiny section of the great intuitive endeavor in investigating natural phenomena but it acts in the most pretensious manner and totally unwarranted given the vandalism it wrought on astronomy.

Christianity or at least the Church has always had the ability to spot gnostic or neo-gnostic tendencies from entering and diluting the traditions of either simple faith or exquisite reasoning. Unfortunately ,very few are capable of dealing with the latest batch and I am seen as the troll or the disturber of great science/religion dialogue.

I have said that it is a matter for the Vatican Observatory to deal with and that remains so,it will turn out to be an enormous struggle given that the cornerstone of Newtonian mechanics is based on a cartoon description of axial and orbital motion and most theories are derivative of Newton’s.

If there is no struggle then it is in the hands of His Majesty.

 

[need_to_know]

Man, I so need to unsubscribe from this thread