Vatican on the New Age

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Tantum ergo:

The true and authentic contemplative prayer has already been developed and vetted by the mystics and monks of old. There is NOTHING new to add. To try to add things only contaminates.

Keating et al are fundamentally flawed in their attempts to “modernize” contemplation.

Jim is right about one thing, we cannot trust those with an agenda – pro or con. Fr. Dreher, Fr. Pacwa, myself and most others have approached this with reasoned analysis from the study of the materials and in some cases with direct experience. We have not said what we have said out of some agenda. It is what it is. Those who have supported it however seem to have an obvious agenda and get really bent out of shape – which is odd because if they were doing genuine contemplation they would not get so upset.

I could personally care less whether or not Centering Prayer is good or bad. I have no agenda other than the truth. Centering Prayer is bad because of what it is. Because it borrows from the ancient mystics does not legitimize it. Keating et al have borrowed legitimate sources but have added to it things which cannot be reconciled in Catholicism. Read the Fr. Dreher article. It is ACCURATE.

Besides, why all this energy concerning a new innovation, when we already have contemplative forms that are not under dispute by anyone and have been practiced and vetted over centuries?
 
Hello,

I’ve been following this thread with some interest, and thought I’d add some comments for further discussion:
Tantum ergo:

The true and authentic contemplative prayer has already been developed and vetted by the mystics and monks of old. There is NOTHING new to add. To try to add things only contaminates.
The article that Jim links ( kyrie.com/cp/a_gift_from_the_desert.htm ) suggests that the principles behind centering prayer is nothing new.

In fact, much of the description of the prayer closely resembles these instructions from St. Simeon the New Theologian as quoted from the Way of the Pilgrim (I forgot the page number):

“Sit alone and in silence; bow your head and close your eyes; relax your breathing and with your imagination look into your heart; direct your thoughts from your head into your heart. and while inhaling say, “Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me,” either softly with your lips or in yoru mind. endeavor to fight distractions but be patient and peaceful and repeat this process frequently”
I could personally care less whether or not Centering Prayer is good or bad. I have no agenda other than the truth. Centering Prayer is bad because of what it is.
Have you read the article that Jim posted? Also, can you refute it? I don’t do centering prayer, unless of course the Jesus prayer is considered centering prayer.
Because it borrows from the ancient mystics does not legitimize it. Keating et al have borrowed legitimate sources but have added to it things which cannot be reconciled in Catholicism. Read the Fr. Dreher article. It is ACCURATE.
I’ve read it, and it seems quite contrary to what Fr. Pennington has written.
Besides, why all this energy concerning a new innovation, when we already have contemplative forms that are not under dispute by anyone and have been practiced and vetted over centuries?
Personally, I do not care much about the prayer, since I do not prayer it, but does this suggest that the use of a rosary for praying the rosary should also be jettisoned, since the origin of a rosary comes from the Japa Mala used in Buddhism and Hinduism?

Additionally, the Rosary was certainly a new innovation when it began to be in use around the 12th century with it’s older form of 150 beads, where each bead represented the Psalms.
 
In summary Centering prayer is essentially a form of self-hypnosis. It makes use of a “mantra,” a word repeated over and over to focus the mind while striving by one’s will to go deep within oneself. The effects are a hypnotic-like state: concentration upon one thing, disengagement from other stimuli, a high degree of openness to suggestion, a psychological and physiological condition that externally resembles sleep but in which consciousness is interiorized and the mind subject to suggestion.
The problem with such a statement is that often people assume that self-hypnosis is somehow evil, yet this is something everyone does, especially when watching television.

People can actually go into such hypnotic states while watching movies or reading books, and even attending Mass. Charismatic/Pentecostals tends to experience this through their ‘free style’ worship. We experience similar things in the context of liturgical worship, particularly through Gregorian chant.

Lastly, children are naturally in this ‘suggestible state’.
But enough said. I will not argue this since arguing with error is fruitless and unproductive argumentation is a sin. The good Catholics here have the information they need
Perhaps I may be wrong, but this statement is quite a subtle way of saying, “some of us here are bad Catholics.” To assume such a statement is to cast judgment upon those who are ‘bad’. I’m sure many of us are here to learn and discern, but to use such a statement is perhaps inappropriate.

More importantly, the bit about ‘arguing with error is fruitless’ almost sounds like a sort of holier-than-thou mentality. Was it even necessary to state that it is not worth arguing?
Bottomline: I suggest that people stay close to the Church and the historic wisdom of the people who are experts in contemplation such as the monks of old, such as the Hesychists, and saints like St. Teresa of Avila, St John of the Cross, etc. Their prayer forms have been vetted by centuries and centuries to ensure their Catholicity, not a few decades of modern innovation in controversy.
The problem I see with this is that throughout the history of the Church, the Church seemed to get ideas that were not necessary from the deposit of faith (though not in contradiction either). St. Ignatius’s Spiritual Exercises were certainly a controversial innovation when he had written them. The same is true for the Rosary, as the Orthodox frown upon such ‘innovation’. Christmas and Easter have clearly pagan origins, which many protestants . The Jesus Prayer seems to have been influenced by Eastern religions.

My spiritual father simply put it this way to me:

The big difference with non-Christian use of meditation (ancient and modern) is, of course, the invocation of the name of Jesus which makes the practice a matter of personal relationship with God (in contrast to any other use). Since the time of St Justin it has been affirmed that anything can be (and probably has already been) baptized, including meditation. The important thing is to keep the Gospel paramount in any expression of faith.
 
Dear Jason HC,

I’m going to refrain from commenting on CP specifically since it is supposed to be a banned topic.

But, I willl say that earlier in this thread, InLight brilliantly summed up the difference between Christian and New Age meditation techniques based on the Vatican document:
The difference is very clear if we read it carefully.

God centered v.s. self centered
God initiated v.s. self initiated
Infused v.s. obtained through techniques
Working toward holiness v.s. no one needs forgiveness
Striving for virtues v.s. sense of harmony

etc…
Brother Ignatius is well-qualified to comment on this topic with his background in theology, apologetics, and experience as a spiritual director and deliverance counselor. As he mentioned in post #9, he often deals with the aftermath of New Age dabbling when people become demonized as a result of doing so and go to him for help.
 
People must not read much.

I have already said that I have read and STUDIED all the source documents and yes, they can be refuted and I have posted an excellent refutation article already.

Such a controversy indicates something deeply wrong.

But, I did not realize that Centering Prayer was off limits. I completely understand why and agree.

This thread has been hijacked by this. Now, can we get back to the topic of this thread, which is NOT Centering Prayer?
 
BroIgnatius
I could personally care less whether or not Centering Prayer is good or bad. I have no agenda other than the truth. Centering Prayer is bad because of what it is. Because it borrows from the ancient mystics does not legitimize it. Keating et al have borrowed legitimate sources but have added to it things which cannot be reconciled in Catholicism. Read the Fr. Dreher article. It is ACCURATE.
And here is my argument. Fr Keating and Fr. Pennington have not added anything to contemplation as your accusing them of.

Centering Prayer is nothing more than turning toward the Lord, and relying on His grace for transforming union with Him. It is routed in the Eastern Traditions of the desert Fathers. You probably would have problems with the Jesus prayer, and how Abba Issac taught it, because this is what Centering Prayer is. But you’d have to read the link I provided to understand.

Fr Dreher’s article is inaccurate on what he says, about Pennington and Keating teach. Thats my contention with it. All you have to do read what he’s written, then read what Pennington and Keating have written and see the difference. How can Fr Dreher writing about what Fr Keating and Fr Pennington teach, and yet be so wrong? How could he write and article about what they teach, without interviewing them, especially if he has some confusion on some of what they’re teaching.

Also, Fr Dreher on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, contradicts the teaching of the Church. In his view, God does not dwell within us, but only His grace, and he says that when we pray, our prayers should be directed to heaven, rather than to the omnipresent God who dwells within. Dr Dreher would have serious problems with the teachings of St Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross on this.

In fact, we should be seeing and article by him, condemning Fr Thomas Dubay’s works, because he teaches the same thing on contemplation, which Fr Keating and Fr Pennington teach.

Jim
 
JasonHC
The problem with such a statement is that often people assume that self-hypnosis is somehow evil, yet this is something everyone does, especially when watching television.
The problem with the statement is that its false.

Myself and many others have read this accusation, and find it unbelievable, because we have never experienced a hypnotic state, nor have we had experiences of being unaware of where we are, or who we are.

Jim
 
Hi Folks:

One of the other major aspects of the New Age is the idea of the “god within”. This idea forms the basis of much of New Age mediation and contemplation. Here is the Vatican’s take on this from the document we are discussing:
3.5. The “god within“ and “theosis”
Here is a key point of contrast between* New Age* and Christianity. So much New Age literature is shot through with the conviction that there is no divine being “out there”, or in any real way distinct from the rest of reality. From Jung’s time onwards there has been a stream of people professing belief in “the god within”. Our problem, in a New Age perspective, is our inability to recognise our own divinity, an inability which can be overcome with the help of guidance and the use of a whole variety of techniques for unlocking our hidden (divine) potential. The fundamental idea is that ‘God’ is deep within ourselves. We are gods, and we discover the unlimited power within us by peeling off layers of inauthenticity.) The more this potential is recognised, the more it is realised, and in this sense the New Age has its own idea of* theosis, *becoming divine or, more precisely, recognising and accepting that we are divine. We are said by some to be living in “an age in which our understanding of God has to be interiorised: from the Almighty God out there to God the dynamic, creative power within the very centre of all being: God as Spirit”.

In the Preface to Book V of Adversus Haereses, Saint Irenaeus refers to “Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself”. Here* theosis, *the Christian understanding of divinisation, comes about not through our own efforts alone, but with the assistance of God’s grace working in and through us. It inevitably involves an initial awareness of incompleteness and even sinfulness, in no way an exaltation of the self. Furthermore, it unfolds as an introduction into the life of the Trinity, a perfect case of distinction at the heart of unity; it is synergy rather than fusion. This all comes about as the result of a personal encounter, an offer of a new kind of life. Life in Christ is not something so personal and private that it is restricted to the realm of consciousness. Nor is it merely a new level of awareness. It involves being transformed in our soul and in our body by participation in the sacramental life of the Church.
I think we have covered most of the main issues. As I said at the beginning this document is so rich in its message it is hard to just pick out a few items. Be sure to read the WHOLE document. It is a MUST read.

I will post excerpts of the section on Practical Steps suggested by the Vatican as a conclusion of the presentation of this document.
 
Also, Fr Dreher on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, contradicts the teaching of the Church. In his view, God does not dwell within us, but only His grace, and he says that when we pray, our prayers should be directed to heaven, rather than to the omnipresent God who dwells within. Dr Dreher would have serious problems with the teachings of St Teresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross on this.
Jim
Jim, I don’t see where Fr. Dreher denies the indwelling Holy Spirit. You have put words in Fr. Dreher’s mouth that he did not say.

What he does say about the indwelling is accurate:
The confusion of technique over encounter arises from a misunderstanding of the indwelling of God. The fact that God indwells us does not mean that we can capture him by techniques. Nor does it mean that we are identical with him in our deepest self. Rather, God indwells us by grace which does not blend human and divine natures. On the contrary, it perfects and empowers our limited human faculties, so that we can relate to him. We can no more manipulate this indwelling of grace by psychological techniques than we can manipulate our existence.
Analogously, children do not come to know the parents who gave them existence by going deep inside themselves or back to the moment of their conception. They come to know their parents by interaction with them. As children use the faculties given them at conception to grow and become like their parents, so we use the faculties given us by the indwelling Spirit to interact with God and to put on Jesus Christ. As children speak to their parents, so we speak to God by the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells us.
This is what the Catholic tradition means by the term “sanctifying grace.” Sanctifying grace is the grace of union with God. By it, we are given a share in the very holiness of God. Sanctifying grace is God’s communication of himself to man. As such, it cannot be experienced by human faculties. However, Sanctifying grace gives us the “faculties” to relate to God. By it, we are given a new and additional “divine nature” and are made “sons and daughters” of God. With childlike simplicity, we can say “our Father.” By incarnating this grace through acts of obedience to God (what the Church calls “actual graces”) we are progressively converted from our sinful nature and “put on Jesus Christ,” participating in the life of Jesus Christ as members of his Body. In the religion of Christ, the Incarnate Lord, there is no disengagement from the external, but rather a dedication of one’s life and the world to God. The goal is not merely a deep inner peace but a sanctification of body, mind, and heart—indeed, of the whole world.
What you seem not to be able to get past is that infused contemplation is a gift from God, not something that we can “achieve” or “bring about” through techniques. The Vatican document I linked in the first post in this thread makes this fact very clear.

I’d like to refer you to the moderator’s sticky on centering prayer’s being a banned topic. Not only does it contain the reason for this ban, but also multiple links on the topic.

Note from Mod - No Private Revelations or Centering Prayer!

I’m afraid this thread is heading for a lock if discussion of centering prayer continues, unless the ban was lifted on 1/1/2008. The sticky makes it sound like it was only banned through 2007. 🤷
 
In conclusion, here are excerpts of the Practical Steps suggested by the Vatican in this document:
**6.2. Practical steps **

+The Catholic Church has its own very effective networks, which could be better used.

+Quite a few New Age groups welcome every opportunity to explain their philosophy and activities to others. Encounters with these groups should be approached with care, and should always involve persons who are capable of both explaining Catholic faith and spirituality, and of reflecting critically on* New Age *thought and practice.

+Some local New Age** groups refer to their meetings as “prayer groups”. Those people who are invited to such groups need to look for the marks of genuine Christian spirituality, and to be wary if there is any sort of initiation ceremony.

+**Christians must be taught about the true object and content of prayer – in the Holy Spirit, through Jesus Christ, to the Father – in order to judge rightly the intention of a “prayer group”. **Christian prayer and the God of Jesus Christ will easily be recognised. Many people are convinced that there is no harm in ‘borrowing’ from the wisdom of the East, but the example of Transcendental Meditation ™ should make Christians cautious about the prospect of committing themselves unknowingly to another religion (in this case, Hinduism), despite what TM’s promoters claim about its religious neutrality. There is no problem with learning how to meditate, but the object or content of the exercise clearly determines whether it relates to the God revealed by Jesus Christ, to some other revelation, or simply to the hidden depths of the self.

+Christian groups which promote care for the earth as God’s creation also need to be given due recognition. The question of respect for creation is one which could also be approached creatively in Catholic schools. A great deal of what is proposed by the more radical elements of the ecological movement is difficult to reconcile with Catholic faith.

+Perhaps the simplest, the most obvious and the most urgent measure to be taken, which might also be the most effective, would be to make the most of the riches of the Christian spiritual heritage. …Helping people in their spiritual search by offering them proven techniques and experiences of real prayer could open a dialogue with them which would reveal the riches of Christian tradition, and perhaps clarify a great deal about* New Age* in the process.
This is a wonderful document that should clarify for Catholic the lines between genuine Christian spirituality and the false spiritualities of the various new age, Buddhist, Hindu, and other methods and practices (and that which borrows from them).

In workshops that I teach I take a pitcher of pure water and offer the water to the audience. I would then take a dropper that I tell the audience is filled with sewer water. I insert one small drop in the pitcher of water. I then ask if anyone wants a glass of water. No one raises their hand.

One of Satan’s tactics is to get us to blend just a drop of non-Christian notions into our minds. From there a the contamination can grow.

Consider the follow quotes from Hinduism Today magazine:
Hindus everywhere are becoming stronger and more assertive: … 2) The West is clearly open to the Hindu message, ready to hear about yoga, meditation, mysticism, healing and the ancient ways. Such “products” were too sophisticated for public consumption 30 years ago, but today they’re the hottest item on the shelf. Not a small part of this phenomenon is related, indirectly, to the coming of age of the New Age movement…
Consider this warning given in the same magazine:
A small army of yoga missionaries - hatha, raja, siddha and kundalini - beautifully trained in the last 10 years, is about to set upon the western world. They may not call themselves Hindu, but Hindus know where yoga came from and where it goes.
This article was written in 1991. Since then the “missionaries” have already set upon us and in large part have converted many, even those in the Church, even otherwise good Catholics.
 
Lets look at a few points that Fr Drehers makes and compare them to what Fr Keating says.

Fr Dreher;
Centering prayer originated in St. Joseph’s Abbey, a Trappist monastery in Spencer, Massachusetts. During the twenty years (1961-1981) when Keating was abbot, St. Joseph’s
held dialogues with Buddhist and Hindu representatives, and a Zen master gave a week-long retreat to the monks. A former Trappist monk who had become a Transcendental Meditation teacher also gave a session to the monks.
But did Centering Prayer come from these Hindu and Zen representatives as Fr Dreher asserts?

Fr Keating;
Sometime in the mid-1970s, I raised the following question in a conference to our monastic community: “Could we put the Christian tradition into a form that would be accessible to
people in the active ministry today and to young people who have been instructed in an Eastern technique and might be inspired to return to their Christian roots if they knew there was something similar in the Christian tradition?” Having devoted my life to the
pursuit of the Christian contemplative tradition and having developed a profound appreciation of its immense value, I grieved to see it completely ignored by people who were going to the
East for what could be found right at home, if only it were properly presented.
When I raised this challenge to the community, Fr. William Meninger was inspired to take it seriously Basing himself on a fourteenth-century spiritual classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, he put together a method that he called the “Prayer of the Cloud”
and started teaching it to priests in the retreat house. The response was so positive that he decided to put his conferences on audio tapes. Those tapes have sold over fifteen thousand
copies and have been a take-off point for many people to use the simple form of prayer recommended by the author of The Cloud of Unknowing, in which a single word such as “God” or
“Love” expresses one’s “naked intent directed to God.” centeringprayer.com/intimacy/intimacy01a.htm
Fr. Dreher;
Centering prayer differs from Christian prayer in that the intent of the technique is to bring the practitioner to the center of his own being. There he is, supposedly, to experience the presence of the God who indwells him. Christian prayer, on the contrary, centers upon God in a relational way, as someone apart from oneself. The Christian knows a God who is personal, yet who, as Creator, infinitely transcends his creature. God is wholly other than man.
It is also crucial to Christian prayer that God engages man’s whole being in response, not just his interior life. In the view of centering prayer, the immanence of God
somehow makes the transcendence of God available to human techniques and experience.
Fr. Keating;
Where does Centering Prayer come from? Its source is the Trinity dwelling within us. It is rooted in God’s life within us. I don’t think that we reflect about this truth nearly enough. With baptism comes the entire uncreated presence of the most holy
Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We participate as human beings in God’s life just by being alive, but much more through grace. We participate in the movement between the Father giving himself totally to the Son, and the Son giving himself totally to the Father. They empty themselves into each other. The Spirit of Love
reconstitutes them, so to speak, so that they can keep rendering forever. This stream of divine love that is constantly renewed in the life of the Trinity is infused into us through grace. We know this by our desire for God. That desire, however it may be battered by the forces of daily life, manifests itself in the effort
that we make to develop a life of prayer and a life of action that is penetrated by prayer.
The Trinitarian life is manifested in us primarily by our hunger for God. Centering Prayer comes out of the Life of God moving within us. Hence it is Trinitarian in its source. Its focus is Christological. It establishes us in a deepening relationship with Christ.
Begun in Lectio Divina (the prayerful reading of Scripture) and other devotions and especially in the sacraments, our relationship with Christ moves to new depths and to new levels of intimacy as we grow in the practice of Centering Prayer.
Finally, Centering Prayer is ecclesial in its effects; that is, it bonds us with everyone else in the Mystical Body of Christ and indeed with the whole human family. There is really no such thing as private prayer. We cannot pray at this deep level without including everyone in the human family, especially those in great need. We also feel the need to express this sense of bonding and unity with others in some form of community. centeringprayer.com/intimacy/intimacy01a.htm
In Christ
Jim
 
Becky
What you seem not to be able to get past is that infused contemplation is a gift from God, not something that we can “achieve” or “bring about” through techniques.
I have always said that contemplation is a gift from God, not something we do or can achieve through techniques. Also, CP is not a technique.

I have no idea how you thing that I was saying something different.🤷

Jim
 
JasonHC

The problem with the statement is that its false.

Myself and many others have read this accusation, and find it unbelievable, because we have never experienced a hypnotic state, nor have we had experiences of being unaware of where we are, or who we are.

Jim
This presupposes that hypnosis is being unaware of where we are and who we are. Yet, it is a gross misrepresentation of hypnosis. In fact, your statement tells me that you do not know what hypnosis really is.

The fact is hypnosis happens everyday, like when students day dream, or ‘zone out’, or when people drive past their usual exit, or forget to make the appropriate right or left turn. These are natural occurences of trance, as it is an intense focus on something (so as to shut other thoughts out). Children are naturally in such a state. Those who pray for long periods of time are technically experiencing a trance, so as to almost let one’s surrounding’s no longer remain in awareness, due to the intense focus on a prayer. Thus, some people during Mass are simply not bothered by crying babies, and other potential distractions.

Additionally, those who experience hypnosis can consciously snap out of it if they come across suggestions that go against their core values.
 
Jason,
I don’t think Fr Dreher is using your understanding of self-hypnosis, for if he were, then he’d have to conclude that all forms of prayer bring on a self-hypnotic state.

Jim
 
Dear brother in Carmel,
By saying this, you only show that you really don’t know what Centering Prayer is.
Honestly, this often repeated statement is of no help. It’s actually an ad hominem attack that is not only detrimental to the discussion but also to the fellowship of this forum.

Throughout history we’ve seen all too often adherents of ideologies claiming to be their true bearers, in spite of previous of such claims having led to the same results, be them Mao, Castro, bin Laden, etc. Not that I’m comparing you to them, but you certainly shouldn’t resort to a tactic that’s worthy of them, not of you.

Just, please, stop saying that.

:blessyou:
 
Apparently we are not going to discuss the topic of this thread.

It was been successfully hijacked.

MODERATORS, I recommend this thread be locked.
 
Read this Catholic Answers article on the dangers of centering prayer.
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711fea1.asp
Thank-you for citing this article. It’s disturbing . . . I was taught centering prayer in RCIA. When our instructor told us to use it, I didn’t do it as she instructed because I like to know what I’m getting into before doing it. So I’ve just kept praying and experiencing God as I always have. But now to learn that what I was taught is tied to Eastern meditation . . . that is worrisome. I’m very glad to be alerted about this.

Oh, and I want to thank you very much, Becky, for starting this thread and creating that Vatican link. I think it was a very good idea.
 
One other thing: In my experience, one of the best and easiest ways to taste of the joy of the Lord is to simply pray thank-you to him. To express love and gratitude. He is receptive to it and can be quite responsive. It brings a real joy of spirit to say “thank-you, God,” and to thank him then for whatever, for the existence of colors (one of my personal favorites), for family, for parts of nature, for good food and the gift of taste, for good things personally happening to me or others. It’s just a great way of basking in the Lord’s presence, for he of course loves to be thanked and so often responds, and it also naturally generates very appropriate happiness in us when we dwell on good or happy things. There’s a very natural element to it, but there’s also a relational, mystic and divine experiential side to it as well.

It’s most lovely; I strongly recommend it. One doesn’t need “centering prayer” or other dodgy “techniques.” Simply thanking God for what he has given us can spark the joy of the Lord in our souls and a deeper intimacy with God.
 
Simply thanking God for what he has given us can spark the joy of the Lord in our souls and a deeper intimacy with God.
What you said is very true. Thanksgiving always brings new blessings and the joy of the Lord.

Another thing I like to mention is to sit in front of the tabernacle and pray. When I sit closely to my Lord, the Presence is so strong that I usually feel reluctant to leave. Jesus is always physically in the tabernacle. When we sit with Him, we bring ourselves into His presence. It is just that immediate and concrete.

And I like to tell Him, “I love you so much,” blowing a kiss to Him. The intimacy is real.
 
Hi guys:

I agree about the Blessed Sacrament. One of the greatest forms of prayer and contemplation is to be with our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

I recommend to my clients that they spend time each week in adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. I tell them that in doing this they are Basking in the Rays of the Son.

I also recommend to them that in addition to whatever else they do while in adoration, that part of their time they sit quietly and let God speak to them.

God tells us in Scriptures, “Be still and know that I am God”.

Sometimes God can’t get a word in edgewise for all the talking we do in prayer. We need to be still at times and contemplate, not our inner self, but God who is our Lord and Creator.

Confession, the Eucharist, and adoration of the Blessed Sacrament are the three most important tools in deliverance and for all the Faithful to grow in intimacy with God.
 
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