Vatican planning to remove Eucharistic Prayers for Children

[puzzleannie]

can’t happen soon enough IMO. I am against all such celebrations in which portions of the congregation are deliberately removed from the assembly. that is not to say I would not ban Masses for specific groups such as schoolchildren during their school day, youth retreats etc., but the existing Eucharistic prayers convey the reality they profess and do not need to be watered down for children, who are formed by the mystery of the words and actions long before they understand their meaning and significance.

 

[Hammerofheresy]

Deo Gratias. The Eucharist Prayers for children have to be about one of the stupidist most infantile things to come out of Vatican II. For 1800 + years children got along fine with out having baby goo goo gah gah prayers in the Mass.

 

[Manfred]

I don’t want to get too far off-topic, but since you mentioned E.P. IV…

It (with its Preface) is a great (albeit brief) walk-through of salvation history, but my only real complaint with it is that I think it is an example of “if the people can hear it” syndrome. What I mean is, the Eucharistic Prayer is being spoken to God, Who already knows all about salvation history, not the people, who might need a refresher course. But I think E.P. IV (perhaps just in its current ICEL translation) comes off sounding too much like a refresher course for humans rather than a prayer praising God’s wonderful work of redemption.

Just like the Collect (and other prayers), when we pray to God and mention what He has done, we shouldn’t be saying it like we’re taking an oral exam in His presence and want to impress Him with our knowledge of Him. Instead, we should be using His mighty deeds sort of like a description (or sub-title) of Him.

I think E.P. IV is more geared toward the congregation than God because, since the E.P. is now spoken aloud, the congregation can hear it, and how long can a person listen to something being spoken to someone other than themselves? But I could be wrong.

On those rare occasions when EP IV is used in my parish, the celebrant usually trips all over himself by his substitutions for words like “man”, “mankind”, “men”.

I dislike EP II; the word “sacrifice” is not in it.

Most of the year, I pray EP I, sometimes called “The Roman Canon”; I use EP IV during Advent.

“EP I, I knew and prayed the Roman Canon. The Roman Canon I remember from the TLM is a real gem. EP I, you are not the Roman Canon.”

 

[japhy]

Most of the year, I pray EP I, sometimes called “The Roman Canon”; I use EP IV during Advent.

When during Advent? EP IV is only supposed to be allowed on days without a proper preface; aren’t the Advent prefaces supposed to be used all throughout Advent?

“EP I, I knew and prayed the Roman Canon. The Roman Canon I remember from the TLM is a real gem. EP I, you are not the Roman Canon.”

Yeah, I know… the new translation is a serious improvement, though. Now, if only the gestures were re-inserted!

 

[Manfred]

When during Advent? EP IV is only supposed to be allowed on days without a proper preface; aren’t the Advent prefaces supposed to be used all throughout Advent?

Understand that I am not a priest but a layman; since EP II is used better than 90% of the time in my parish, I unapologetically break ranks with the celebrant and pray the EP by myself. I do realize that EP IV is not intended for Sunday use during Advent, but its retelling of salvation history just makes it seem so appropriate, certain more so than EP II.

Yeah, I know… the new translation is a serious improvement, though. Now, if only the gestures were re-inserted!

Amen! to that.

For those of you with St Joseph missals from the 50s/60s: ever winder why the English translation of the Mass prayers used therein was never adopted for use in the Mass? It was certainly more faithful to the Latin than any of the pap ICEL produced!

 

[Joannm]

Deo Gratias. The Eucharist Prayers for children have to be about one of the stupidist most infantile things to come out of Vatican II. For 1800 + years children got along fine with out having baby goo goo gah gah prayers in the Mass.

The EPs for children are not gone. They are simply going to be removed from the Roman Missal (Sacramentary). They will be contained in a separate book of Eucharistic Prayers in the same way there is a separate book of EPs for Masses of the BVM or the one for Various Needs. I got this directly from the head of the BCDW. They were taken off the Bishops agenda for Nov. because they will be part of a separate translation now that they are not part of the Missal.

 

[Manfred]

Remember: The Divine Worship Service, be it the Roman Mass, the Maronite Quorbono, or the Coptic or Byzantine Divine Liturgies, serves 3 purposes:

1. To provide a means to Worship God, in thanks for all that he has given us.
2. To instruct the faithful in the faith, that they may be saved
3. To participate in the perpetual Sacrifice of Christ that the faithful come to be saved.

One of the issues identified in the Vatican II process was that the whole instructive issue was ignored in the Roman Rite in practice.

EP IV is very instructive. It also is very much a way of worshiping God, by calling to mind all that he has done for us all.

From my pre-Vatican II Catholic elementary school education, Deo gratias, we learned the FOUR purposes for which the Mass is offered:

(1) to adore God;
(2) to thank Him for His many favors;
(3) to ask graces and blessings for ourselves and for others;
(4) to obtain from Him the pardon for our sins and the remission of their punishment.

We can summarize these by the word “ACTS”: Adoration, Contrition, Thanksgiving, Supplication.

However, all this changed after Vatican II, right? Now it’s a celebration of the community gathered around the table of the Eucharistic banquet of the Lord. (There, I think I got all the buzzwords in.)

 

[japhy]

The EPs for children are not gone. They are simply going to be removed from the Roman Missal (Sacramentary). They will be contained in a separate book of Eucharistic Prayers in the same way there is a separate book of EPs for Masses of the BVM or the one for Various Needs. I got this directly from the head of the BCDW. They were taken off the Bishops agenda for Nov. because they will be part of a separate translation now that they are not part of the Missal.

There are special EPs for Masses of the Blessed Virgin Mary too? Never heard of those.

I’d like to be on Bishop Serratelli’s rolodex…

 

[Joannm]

There are special EPs for Masses of the Blessed Virgin Mary too? Never heard of those.

:

Yes, they are in a thin blue book that we have in our sacristy. We usually use them on First Saturday or on a feast of the BVM.

 

[BayernAnhaenger]

As discussed in this article. catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=60199

While I certainly want to see children fully participate in the liturgy (as I did back when dinosaurs ruled the earth despite the Mass being in Latin when I was very young, and in the form we currently know as I entered the teens–in those ‘in between years’ we certainly had full participation no matter what the language was), I disliked the “Eucharistic Prayers for Children” for precisely the reason given that they are now to be removed–a de-emphasis of the sacred due to the well-intentioned (but mistaken) belief on the part of some that children just would not be able to ‘understand’ such things and needed to have things put on ‘their’ level. To an extent, that is true–one does not try to teach a 1st grade class English composition by sitting them down with Shakespeare’s plays alone–but one does not either 'bowdlerize" Shakespeare to make his language the equivalent of that of a 6 year old, nor does one completely exclude him because ‘children will not understand’. They will not understand thoroughly but they will understand something, and the repetition as they grow older will make things more and more clear, and so they certainly need SOME exposure, and regularly.

To me, taking the Eucharistic Prayers and making separate ‘sets’ for children, using them for X number of years and then abruptly sending said child off and expecting them to suddenly be both familiar with, and appreciative of, “regular adult” prayers–and ‘regular adult concepts’ that they were unfamiliar with and probably viscerally disliked (because of the unfamiliarity, especially in the last few ‘me centered’ decades) was a very short-sighted move. I’m glad it is being corrected, but I’m glad, I think, for the right reason … . not because I ‘dislike’ the idea of children’s prayer per se, but because this particular concept was carried out badly. With good intentions. . .but badlyl

As my friend has said (with my one addition, )
One Faith, One Sacrifice, One Church, One Body, One God, One Pope. (There are more, but I forget).
My addition: One Eucharistic Prayer (the Roman Canon).

 

[pnewton]

Children who are young do not understand the Eucharistic Prayers. It may take years before they can fully appreciate them. So what is the best way to teach children?

I am of the opinion that the best educators of younger children is dialogue with parents. As the child grows, the fact that so of the words and phrases are unusual provides a great opportunity to explain the faith to a child on the level they understand. After all, if I were to try and compose a liturgy for children, what age group do I aim for? If I make it too simple, the older children will want to be all grown up and find in juvenile. If I make it too complex, then I have accomplished nothing for the younger kids.

Second, one of the basic rules of parenting is that it is always easier to train than to re-train. If I train a child in the liturgy as their understanding grows, there will never be the need to start over and compare a standard adult liturgy with the Liturgy for Children.

My opinion then, it is an unneccesary and ill-advised action to have a liturgy simplified for kids.

 

[malphono]

pnewton:

My opinion then, it is an unneccesary and ill-advised action to have a liturgy simplified for kids.

I second that opinion. It speaks to tradition in both East and West.

 

[Lepanto]

One more nail in the coffin for clown masses.

Thank you, Pope Benedict!

 

[japhy]

Yes, they are in a thin blue book that we have in our sacristy. We usually use them on First Saturday or on a feast of the BVM.

Would you mind PM’ing me whatever information you can about the book? I’m not on a witch-hunt or anything, I just haven’t been able to find out anything about this book online apart from what you’ve told me.

Update: Is this it? If so, the EPs it has in it are the standard EPs I-IV.