I would say that this Arian priest did not pass down the Deposit of Faith (which actually never changes but clarified when it is attacked) and thus blasphemed the Holy Spirit.
:nope: I wish Muslims would reflect on this and see things in the right Light.Terrible. Let’s pray for some miracle.
Apparently you’re not paying much attention to what has been happening in Nigeria.
Thankyou for this Gabriel of 12.
The OP does not address Nigeria. but I would be interested in knowing more of why the Muslims are chopping up human innocent victims who are not Muslim in Africa?
It is difficult to discuss faith among political views, current events appear to place faith in the back seat.Thankyou for this Gabriel of 12.
I am no longer commenting on anything other than specifically Baha’i threads, at least for a while anyway
God bless you!
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Muhammed met Christians but He never got anything (as ideology and theology) from them. The source of Quran is directly from God by revelation. Quran shows the truth Christianity. Islam does not claim to prove itself with Christianity or Jesus. Islam only verify Jesus as a prophet like Muhammed.
No Islam is not based on Judaism. Islam teach the truths about Jews.Islam is also based on Judaism, (which they know has true claim to Father Abraham), wherein Muslims also honor Abraham and his call from God however, with some half truths about him.
If source of Islam were not the revelation from God than Islam has not any chance to thrive against Christianity altough if Islam give honor to Jesus.
Christianity had has a true Deposit of Faith once but unfortunately Christians impair that and Islam was revealed to correct this. I hope Christians will underdstand tha one day. Amin!
I assume you are assuming that the gospels were written by the people after whom they were named? This is not universally accepted by bible scholars - it was common to name something after someone important, I suppose to give it gravitas or to honour the person. I don’t think it was done with deception in mind. So, I would say that the stories they contain have been handed down and probably passed through lots of people…and we all know what happens to a story then. It contains a nugget of truth but gets ‘embroidered’. Anyway, even memory plays tricks on us after time and these would be very old men if they were Jesus’ disciples.
Mohammed had several scribes who wrote down his words. The Quran May have parts added, but it certainly wasn’t penned long after Mohammed died.
I understand that Hasantas. Natural for you to believe this. Yet, Islams rejects Jesus’ work and life and his death and Resurrection.
And what problems are being perpetuated by this belief?
What do you mean “thrive against Christianity”? Christianity is about Love. Are you against Love?
Jesus said Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you. Do you not believe in Jesus’ words?Firstly, as I told you, we believe in the Soul that cannot be destroyed because of Christ’s promises. Hope you understand that.
And after all of this you are unable to prove “things claimed to have been said and done” which were not witnessed by the NT writers.
The Quran is not recorded until long after Muhammad’s death. Some say between 60 to 600 years after the death of Muhammad depending on who you ask? Never the less ALL historians agree Muhammad and those close to him all die before the Quran surfaces period
Hang on, hang on…you seem to have got the wrong end of the stick here! I am not a Muslim claiming some sort of ‘false’ belief of Christianity. I am merely playing devil’s advocate ( unfortunate term in the circumstances but you know what I mean).
Devils advocate is precisely Islam’s take on all other faith’s, with having any understanding of Faith produced by the eye witnessed accounts from both Jews and Christians not to exclude secular recorded history which attests to the faith of Christians while persecuted.
No, you did not prove any Christian faith or belief’s that were not eye witnessed. To do so, you would have to disprove divine revelation and disprove Jesus did not exist, or Jesus was not God incarnate. Which is Islam’s first attempt to disprove Christianity, by the same theories you attempt to apply.
You would do better to use Islam’s false claims and theories you apply to discredit the Crucifixion. For to Islam, to discredit Jesus as not incarnate and the crucifixion did not happen the Christian faith falls apart. Copies of the bible books are secondary and both Church and secular historians have disproven Islam’s claim of Christians re-writing the gospels, when History proves the Catholic faith is well under way and full practice before anything was written. Thus it is the Church and her faith by eye witnessed accounts that spread orally throughout the ancient world before the letters of gospels are circulated.
That’s ok, you have your opinion. I too don’t believe the ancient copies we have today were written by the original apostles. But my Catholic predates these ancient copies of the books of the bible. This I do profess, my faith was already existing before Pagan Rome or the Jews may have burned the originals when other copies were in circulation, for the Catholic Church to practice her liturgy underground during four hundred years of persecution.
Sorry, If Islam cannot stand on it’s own merit without having to attack Christianity and the Jewish faith to prove it’s religion, when eye witnesses to Jesus revelation all went to their death’s under torture to deny Jesus and His divine revelation, when these eye witnesses became martyrs recorded by both pagan Rome and Jewish authorities to qualify the eye witnesses of Jesus crucifixion and divine revelations. Which these same Martyrs who followed the eye witnesses faith continued this Apostolic Tradition to today.
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“In common parlance, a devil’s advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate or to explore the thought further.”
But Islam is an Abrahamic religion! You can’t say that it’s borrowing from a history that is never Islam’s, any more than you can accuse Christianity of ‘borrowing from a history’ - of Judaism - ‘that is never Christianity’s’!
I’m not entirely sure what you mean here, by ‘carnal understanding’ etc. I’m not trying to prove anything for Islam…like I said, I’m playing devil’s advocate. Using your own reasoning in order to illustrate how it’s possible for others to do the same for their religion.
It’s a bit difficult to get your point here. What are these tangible items seven hundred years too late? Seven hundred years from what?
I doubt that Mary’s immaculate conception was eye- witnessed. Or her bodily ascension into heaven. Or Jesus’s descent into hell, which is in the creed. Neither Jesus nor anyone with him mentioned a virgin birth - which would have been an important factor regarding his ministry - you would have expected it to have come up sometime. Mary’s perpetual virginity wasn’t witnessed - James was Jesus’s brother and continued his ministry after Jesus was crucified. There was no consensus on the idea of perpetual virginity even by the end of the 2nd century…so no eye-witnesses there.
I have never tried to claim! nor will I claim, that the crucifixion did not happen.
I’m not sure what you mean here either. Are you saying that Islam cannot possibly, logically, be a valid religion AFTER Christianity - because Christianity came before it…that no Muslims were around when Christianity was founded? But lots of religions came before Christianity - and you don’t claim that Christianity can’t supersede the Greek and Roman Gods, or the Egyptian Gods because Christianity wasn’t around when THEY were being founded?
But the gospels we DO have date from the end of the 1st century. There wouldn’t have been MUCH time for earlier copies to have been in circulation but it’s possible there were writings that got lost or destroyed - there does appear to have been something bible scholars call Q, that Matthew Mark and Luke took material from. Other gospels existed which the early CHURCH rejected and destroyed very early on. There were many disagreements within the early fledgling church.
I repeat that Jesus and his apostles did not mention, for example, the immaculate conception, the virgin birth, perpetual virginity or the Trinity. These are things that were thrashed out in the developing church, many years after the life and death of Jesus.
I understand your point. I merely stating that your take on disqualifying the Gospels, is the same theory Islam uses to disclaim Jesus incarnation and crucifixion. Muslims use dated archeological finds to try and justify their false claims against Christianity got her faith wrong.
No, I am stating that; Islam makes false claims against Christianity and the Jewish faith, when no Muslim practicing Islam existed when the Christian faith is founded by Jesus Christ, to justify their false claims. In other words Muslims who practice Islam never have any eye witnesses existing in the first century to make their false claims against Christianity strictly speaking the Catholic faith which is the only Christian faith existing.
All religions in the world are founded by men or lately by women, including the Jewish religion by Abraham. The Catholic Church is the Only Faith in all of history , that is founded by God Himself. Islam claims their faith is founded by a man (Muhammad) and denies God’s revelation by Jesus Christ, when Islam has not Muslims existing in the first century to eye witness Jesus Christ and His salvific work for all humanity for all ages.
We can speculate of how pagan Rome and the Jews practiced the burning of written documents of all those they opposed, including Christians. What pagan Rome and the Jews could never destroy, the faith of the eye witness accounts and their witness of Truth accounts tested and confirmed their faith in Jesus Christ by martyrdom. Now these Christian martyrs did not go to their saintly death by resisting and fear of torture. History records from eye witnesses by Jews, pagan Romans and Christians, that these eye witnesses of Jesus Christ met torture and death with joy and singing and those with the same faith followed their master Jesus Christ. The blood witness supersedes any carbon dating of copied letters from the apostles. Islam and your argument falls apart here by the living eye witnessed accounts.
Yes, the Q document is a theory scholars and historians use to justify the synoptic (repeated (same) written Christian history) gospels. When each gospel writer, writes to different audiences. The Q document is credited to St. Mark which is the oldest of all documents existing. It is important to note that St. Mark is a direct disciple of Peter, who is the leader of all the apostles. St. Mark is made a disciple of Peter before St. Mark writes, in other words the faith of Mark is handed to him orally by Peter before Mark writes.
Here is what needs to be cleared up here about this history; The Catholic Church of persecution is lifted by Pagan Rome. The Catholic Church learns that many of her sister Church’s are using condemned books by heretics in their liturgies, which have Apostles names attached to them. The Catholic Church used a most stringent and difficult scrutiny humanly possible against all books used in each Apostolic Church’s liturgy. Church cannon is the measuring standard the Church uses to confirm each bible book as inspired.
For the record; Pagan Rome in the 4th century never adopts Christianity, let us be clear here. Pagan Rome only begins the removal of it’s persecution laws against Christians. Pagan Rome is still existing here.
There is a lot to say on these multiple subjects. The Hebrew prophets and oral tradition fulfilled in the Christian faith not only pre-announce these biblical truth’s, but reach their fulfillment and revelation in the Christian faith. There are many things Jesus and the apostles said and did that are not written. The Catholic faith is not bound to what is written only, we are never a sola scriptura faith. Our faith is Judeo/Christian. Our liturgy is not written either, but it follows the Judeo Hebrew liturgy which is not written either, yet we both practice them today in our liturgies. The Hebrew in the flesh, the Christian in both the flesh fulfilled eternally in the Spirit. This is where, your theories fall apart when they come against the divine revelations of Jesus Christ.
These are already believed, but are clarified with the developing languages and understandings, when they come under attack by heretics, they become dogma, in order to separate the heretics from the Apostolic faith unchanged.
I have no quarrels with Islam’s faith. I do have a problem with Islam, when Muslims killed all their mystics early on their development, who made attempts at understanding the Spirituality of Islam as compared to the True Christians and Jewish faith. Catholics do not need a carbon dating of a book to justify our Christian faith as being divinely revealed by God, when does not conduct His revelations to Christianity in private visions, but to multiple eye witnesses who are Christian, Jew and Pagan Romans. So the Muslim’s take and your opinion of carbon dating of papyrus and ink are never used to prove my Catholic faith, but only support my Catholic faith existed at time during this carbon dating when Islam never does.
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You have been misinformed greatly. The Church went out to give testimony of Jesus Christ crucified to any and all those who persecuted the Church. The Church never has the secular power in the 2nd century onward t condemn diverse religions. She only disciplines her own shepherds within her own body of believers who fall into heresy. You are greatly mislead on this history, when the Church suffers persecution for her witness of Jesus Christ crucified.
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Nicene Christianity became the official creed first in the Eastern Church and then later in the Western Church who approved the Church council. Nicene Christianity never becomes the official state religion. In the Eastern sector of the Roman Empire it may appear so, due to many converts to Christianity. But your history fails to reveal not all Roman Emperors became Christian, including Constantine who was never a Christians until he was baptized on his death bed. What you need to understand here, when the Church councils she councils for the Church of Christianity.
There is a lot of fallacy in your history here; Let me help you clear some of this up for you. First there is an Eastern Roman new Rome capital in Constantinople, where a Patriarach resides for the eastern Church’s and a Western Rome where the Pope resides, neither one conducts the affairs of either Roman city as a Roman senator.
I apply to your listed dogmas of the Christian faith. You imply a theory to reject them not the facts which made them dogma. Trinity is not mentioned in the bible, but it is a matter of faith already existing long before the Trinity is made binding, in order to remove and counter the attacks of the already baptism faith of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus teaches and commissions the apostles to baptize all in that name. When that name came under attack, the Church dogmatized what Jesus divinely revealed the Trinity, which was already a Christian faith, because all Christians since the apostles were baptized in that name; Father, Son, Holy Spirit. All of your implications fall apart when met with true apologetics and true historical Judeo/Christian faith practiced in the first century to today in the Roman Catholic Church unchanged for 2000 years.
Oh, yes, did you know the NT records Jesus is crucified before the foundation of the world? St. Augustine taught the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament and the New Testament is hidden in the Old Testament. Here is a quote from Jesus; Luke 24;13-33,44-45 when Jesus reveals all the Old Testament to His disciples and graced them with the disposition to understand the scriptures by opening their minds. This sacred Tradition gives to His Church personally has never left the Church understanding of the divine revelations revealed by God both written and what is revealed by God handed down orally, which the Church placed into practice by the Apostles and the Church protects these divine revelations with dogmas. Did you know the crucifixion of Jesus Christ is not a dogma yet? Why, because her shepherds have never denied the crucifixion nor taught it differently than how God revealed in the crucifixion in the fullness of time. So, what you deny here in Church dogma is a fallacy and never survives a true history of Judeo/Christianity in the Roman Catholic Church founded by Jesus Christ Himself.
No, I would say my faith believes that nothing escapes God’s providence both in the physical and spiritual realities. The Christian Faith supersedes carnal knowledge and understandings of the incarnation of Jesus Christ who reveals the Physical/Spiritual realities of life eternal. There is no magic, and the mysticism can only come from one source God the Holy Spirit who is our teacher who reveals Truth and brings to memory all God has done in His only Begotten Son for our salvation. It is baffling, when you meet my faith with carnal theories and false assumptions which distorts the Truth of Church history.
Yes, before Constantine, Maxentius did not persecute Christians - that’s not quite the same as favouring them - but Constantine gave Christianity a huge boost by legalising it, even if he waited until his deathbed before he was baptised.
I have not suggested that the church governed the Roman Empire. It just became the official religion, thereby gradually gaining considerable power. Then it was the pagans being persecuted.
I think it’s possible that we have a language barrier here? As well as a philosophical one! I am finding it difficult to follow your arguments.