VATICAN - Pope: "Never before" has dialogue with Islam been so necessary, for mutual knowledge and acceptance of differences, to counter violence [AN]

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“Despite some misunderstandings and difficulties, there have been advances in interreligious dialogue, also with the faithful of Islam.” “The exercise of listening” essential to understand the values of the other and strengthen ones identity. Avoiding “the snares of a conciliatory syncretism which, in the end, is empty and a harbinger of a totalitarianism without values”.

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From the first paragraph:
“Never before” has there been such a great need for formation in dialogue with Muslims, “because the most effective antidote against any form of violence is education to the discovery and acceptance of difference as a source of wealth and fertility”
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While I admit that rhetorical speech is an important skill for leaders, sometimes the rhetoric goes beyond what can be accepted at face value, and I think the Holy Father has crossed that line here.

  1. *]It seems to me that the conquest of southeastern Europe, Asia Minor, north Africa, and Spain, as well as the Crusades would have been key times for dialogue and acceptance of difference, and that the need was probably greater at those times. Not to diminish the current violence between adherents of the two religions, mostly from the Muslim side.
    *]How is education to the discovery and acceptance of difference a source of fertility? I can conjure possible explanations, but I’m really not sure what was intended.
 
Digitonomy said:
From the first paragraph:While I admit that rhetorical speech is an important skill for leaders, sometimes the rhetoric goes beyond what can be accepted at face value, and I think the Holy Father has crossed that line here.

  1. *]It seems to me that the conquest of southeastern Europe, Asia Minor, north Africa, and Spain, as well as the Crusades would have been key times for dialogue and acceptance of difference, and that the need was probably greater at those times. Not to diminish the current violence between adherents of the two religions, mostly from the Muslim side.
    *]How is education to the discovery and acceptance of difference a source of fertility? I can conjure possible explanations, but I’m really not sure what was intended.
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  1. -I agree with you on point 1.
    -The more knowledge you have of someone/something the less likely you are to dehumanize them/it into the “them” and the more likely you will find common ground for if not acceptance at least tolerance. Prior to going to Iraq my view of Iraqis was- they all hate us, they are all devout, they all want to kill us; after being there and getting to know some of them my view of Iraqis was- they on a whole really aren’t any different than us.
 
Digitonomy said:
It seems to me that the conquest of southeastern Europe, Asia Minor, north Africa, and Spain, as well as the Crusades would have been key times for dialogue …
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Aye, or maybe even the year 700 or so. Get things sorted at the start.

Oh, well. No going back, eh?
 
“Never before” has dialogue with Islam been so necessary, …"

Sounds good, but which Islam?
 
People seem to forget that Islam is more than a religion, it is a compete system that governs the political, social, civil and religious aspects of the country or region. Any country that Islam is in a majority, other religions are really not tolerated, take Saudi Arabia for instance. According to Islam, there are regions of peace and war, regions of peace is where Muslims control everything and regions of war is where they are contesting to get control.
We have nothing in common with Islam, we do not worship the same God, we worship a Triune God, they worship a god call Allah.
 
If someone believes the words of Jesus. " I am the way the truth the life…No one comes to the father but through me. "

We must conclude all other " ways " religions " are false.
We are warned not to worship false gods.
we can look into what others believe for an understanding of where they might go wrong in order to answer questions if they wish to know the truth. But the mere word interfaith dialogue is not possible in a world created by one God , the Lord Jesus Christ…
 
hn160 said:
People seem to forget that Islam is more than a religion, it is a compete system that governs the political, social, civil and religious aspects of the country or region. Any country that Islam is in a majority, other religions are really not tolerated, take Saudi Arabia for instance. According to Islam, there are regions of peace and war, regions of peace is where Muslims control everything and regions of war is where they are contesting to get control.
We have nothing in common with Islam, we do not worship the same God, we worship a Triune God, they worship a god call Allah.
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Do you believe the Jews also worship a “false god”?

Of course, Muslims cannot have a true understanding of God without Jesus Christ who revealed the true God. But neither can Jews. This does not mean, however, that they do not worship the one, true God. It means that they do not have the fullness of truth concerning the one, true God.

As for your comment “We have nothing in common with Islam, we do not worship the same God, we worship a Triune God, they worship a god call Allah”, this is spoken out of apparent ignorance. “Allah” means “God” in Arabic. This is like saying Germans do not worship the one true God because they worship a God called “Gott”. :rolleyes:
 
SteveVH said:
Do you believe the Jews also worship a “false god”?

Of course, Muslims cannot have a true understanding of God without Jesus Christ who revealed the true God. But neither can Jews. This does not mean, however, that they do not worship the one, true God. It means that they do not have the fullness of truth concerning the one, true God.

As for your comment “We have nothing in common with Islam, we do not worship the same God, we worship a Triune God, they worship a god call Allah”, this is spoken out of apparent ignorance. “Allah” means “God” in Arabic. This is like saying Germans do not worship the one true God because they worship a God called “Gott”. :rolleyes:
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:thumbsup:awesome response SteveVH
 
SteveVH said:
As for your comment “We have nothing in common with Islam, we do not worship the same God, we worship a Triune God, they worship a god call Allah”, this is spoken out of apparent ignorance. “Allah” means “God” in Arabic. This is like saying Germans do not worship the one true God because they worship a God called “Gott”. :rolleyes:
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I agree that language has no place in the discussion. But I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the actual, reasonable arguments that state that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. This is acknowledged even by those who don’t hold to that view.

When a German Christian utters his language’s sound for God’s name, he means the same Being as does an English Christian or a Spanish Christian. When a Muslim does the same, whether in his own language or in the more typical Arabic, one can seriously contend that he does not mean the same God. Frankly, I don’t see how the God of the Gospels could ever be confused with the Allah of Islam. Even Islam can’t rectify this without the absurd claim that the Gospels were corrupted.
 
The King of Jordan, members on www.NewAgeIslam.com, and Muslims of reason and good will want to see a new reflection on Islam itself to oppose the violence the world sees towarsd non Muslims as well among Muslims themselves.
 
steido01 said:
I agree that language has no place in the discussion. But I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the actual, reasonable arguments that state that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. This is acknowledged even by those who don’t hold to that view.

When a German Christian utters his language’s sound for God’s name, he means the same Being as does an English Christian or a Spanish Christian. When a Muslim does the same, whether in his own language or in the more typical Arabic, one can seriously contend that he does not mean the same God. Frankly, I don’t see how the God of the Gospels could ever be confused with the Allah of Islam. Even Islam can’t rectify this without the absurd claim that the Gospels were corrupted.
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The link you provided contains the pertinent question, IMHO. Did the Jews, before the incarnation of Christ, worship the one, true God? And, after the revelation of Christ, which they do not accept, do they worship a false god?

I will just say this. Every Muslim that enters heaven will do so thorough Jesus Christ and his infinite mercy, whether or not they ever knew him. But I see little difference between the Jewish faith and the Muslim faith regarding the question of worshipping the one, true God absent the worship of Jesus Christ. Are they in error concerning Christ? Absolutely! Does this mean that they, then, are worshipping a “false god”? Not necessarily.

Peace.

Steve
 
steido01 said:
I agree that language has no place in the discussion. But I don’t think it’s fair to dismiss the actual, reasonable arguments that state that Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. This is acknowledged even by those who don’t hold to that view.

When a German Christian utters his language’s sound for God’s name, he means the same Being as does an English Christian or a Spanish Christian. When a Muslim does the same, whether in his own language or in the more typical Arabic, one can seriously contend that he does not mean the same God. Frankly, I don’t see how the God of the Gospels could ever be confused with the Allah of Islam. Even Islam can’t rectify this without the absurd claim that the Gospels were corrupted.
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I read the link you provided and the author makes a good point, the same point I am trying to make. Did the Jews, prior to the incarnation and revelation of Jesus (Abraham, Moses and the rest) worship a false God? I would hope that your answer would be “no”. If that is the case, do the Jews, subsequent to the revelation of Christ, now worship a false god? I see little difference between the Jews and the Muslim in this regard.

I will just say this. Any and all Muslims and Jews who may enter the kingdom of God will do so only through Jesus Christ, whether or not they ever knew him. But not recognizing the Trinity does not necessarily translate into worshipping a false God. Rather, they worship the true God who they do not understand, IMHO.

Peace.

Steve
 
Dialogue is very important and always necessary in every case of political diplomacy or conciliatory syncretism in the hopes of stopping bloodshed.

It is an effort being put forth by the Pope in preventing the bloodshed and existing conflict appears to be the critical subject for the dialogue at the present. Yet the conflict is not only between Muslims, but between non-Muslims.

The problem in a dialogue of this nature does not address the whole of Islam’s different interpretations, because Islam does not have one voice that can speak for all Muslims.

Contradictions existing within this dialogue needs to address conflicts between Shia and Sunni Muslims, Muslim predominated societies allowing more freedom for Christians or other religions existing within Muslims societies without penalties, Just as Christian predominated societies do not apply penalties to followers of Islam for being Muslim.

The Quran teaches all Muslims, that the Christians and Jews (people of the book) got their divine revelations all wrong. How can Muslims who follow the Quran believe the Pope’s message of peace and tolerance?

When Islam is the minority and is lesser from a political and religious influenced society. History reveals the Muslim obeying the Quran and being tolerable in living in Christian societies. And can practice the Quran’s virtue of deception in order to survive against any persecutions from other faiths.

When Islam becomes the majority and greater from a political and religious influence. History reveals the Muslim obeying the Quran and implicates sharia laws and places penalties upon Christian Church’s to exist within the Muslim majority. And can practice the Quran’s virtue of deception in order to advance Islam over all other faiths.

So if the Pope has the ear of Islam followers, how do we know if tolerance of the Popes message is only buying time (deception) to allow Islam to mature and grow into a majority within a free Christian society?

The western powers have pursued educating Muslims and understanding, which proved economically and politically successful but not religiously. Some Muslim countries have accepted a tolerance and understanding of the West and become an allied to the West, but maintain Quran penalties against Christians within their Muslim societies. Yet another aspect of Islam rejects anything tolerable or educational from the west as coming from the great Satan. This present history has Muslims killing Muslims and Muslims killing non-Muslims especially from the west. From this conflict and contradiction; can a dialogue from the Pope to a political/religious Islam prove to be a success? It remains to be seen, if the outcome produces some success as did the secular powers proved some success economically and politically with some Arab Muslim countries.
 
hn160 said:
We have nothing in common with Islam, we do not worship the same God, we worship a Triune God, they worship a god call Allah.
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The same God hears all our prayers despite our differences. Muslims pray five times a day, they seem to take fasting seriously, their call for modesty is to be admired, we might have things to learn from them too.
 
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