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JoshuaJ
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What is the difference between the doctrine a Bishop has authority to teach and defined doctrine Priscilla & Aquila can teach? Are you saying the Bishop has authority to define the doctrine?
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mercygate
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I searched this thread and found no allegation thato Priscilla and Aquila were heretics. What is this in response to? Did a post disappear?
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VociMike
Guest
Was he married while he was an apostle? There’s no proof that he was. Is there any mention of any apostle being married during their apostleship?
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Scottgun
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Anyone else’s spidey-sense tingling?
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JoshuaJ
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The post must have been removed.
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mercygate
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Good thing. That’s just screwy!
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mercygate
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Not one bishop on his own. Under most circumstances, even the Bishop of Rome, who holds a particular privilege in the Church does not act without the concurrence of his fellow bishops. The Church holds Apostolic Authority in a common trust.
At the Last Supper, Jesus promised the Eleven to send the comforter to “guide you into all the truth.” He also prayed that they would “all be one” as He and the Father are one. On the mount of the Ascension, he gave to the Eleven the great commission to “go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”
When it is necessary for the Church to define doctrine, she most often does it by consent of the Bishops (successors of the Apostles), in councils which are “ecumenical” – meaning every bishop in the Church is invited to attend.
When people taunt the Catholic Church for “having all the answers,” I always respond: Hey! The Church doesn’t even have all the questions!
That is why we depend upon the Holy Spirit for guidance. When we have to hit a ball like the moral question of human embryonic stem cell research, we need definitions that could not have been anticipated in the year 66 A.D.
This is not always a “pretty” or peaceful process. Tempers flare. People get frustrated. But in the end, we trust that the Holy Spirit to fulfill our Lord’s promise to guide His Church “into all the truth.”
I am not a bishop or a priest but I am certified to teach! And I LOVE it!
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TimOliv
Guest
I could not care less. However, the major push for married priests comes from the Diocese. All of us in our little orders with our community and silly things like prayer have no problem with the celibacy rule.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
I like to add regarding this topic of celibacy for priests. Celibacy is not force upon the Catholic Church. It is a discipline which can change. However, in Scripture supported celibacy since a man who is married is concerned with the welfare of worldly matters. A man who remains unmarried for the sake for the Kingdom of God has his eyes set on God and caretaking his the flock.
Celibacy isn’t stricted in Catholicism. It is only in the Latin Rite Catholic Church (Western) that require priest to take a vow of celibacy. There are cases in the Latin Rite Churches that permit married priest with Papal approval. There are some Anglican priests who are married prior to their conversion to the Catholic Church. They kept their priesthood and had Papal approved. These priest are married. If they become widows, they cannot remarry and they must remain celibate.
In the Eastern or Byzantine Catholic Church married men allowed to be ordained priest. However, if the priest’s wife dies, he cannot remarry and must be celibate. Many non-Catholic Christians are unaware of that the Catholic Church has an Byzantine Catholic Church which is in union with the Pope in Rome.
The Byzantine Catholic Church belief and traditions resemble the Eastern Greek Orthodox, and used leaven bread instead of unleaven bread.
Celibacy isn’t stricted in Catholicism. It is only in the Latin Rite Catholic Church (Western) that require priest to take a vow of celibacy. There are cases in the Latin Rite Churches that permit married priest with Papal approval. There are some Anglican priests who are married prior to their conversion to the Catholic Church. They kept their priesthood and had Papal approved. These priest are married. If they become widows, they cannot remarry and they must remain celibate.
In the Eastern or Byzantine Catholic Church married men allowed to be ordained priest. However, if the priest’s wife dies, he cannot remarry and must be celibate. Many non-Catholic Christians are unaware of that the Catholic Church has an Byzantine Catholic Church which is in union with the Pope in Rome.
The Byzantine Catholic Church belief and traditions resemble the Eastern Greek Orthodox, and used leaven bread instead of unleaven bread.
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zerinus
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In a survey carried out in the US a few years ago, it was found that up to 50% of the seminarians enrolled in the US to become Catholic priests had homosexual orientation. That is a remarkably high percentage, considering the national average. Do you think that the Catholic Church’s ban on married priests might have some bearing on that?
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Mannyfit75
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Catholic priests who had homosexual tendencies are under the vow of chastity. This means they must abstain from such acts. This rules apply to heterosexual priests as well. As an individual myself who is discerning priesthood after my Army career, the arch diocese are now required to carefully screen new seminarians discerning priesthood.
This include a mental evaluation of the priest candidate. Indeed, the Catholic Church bans homosexuals in the priesthood. From my understanding, steps are taken to resolve the issue. As to what steps the CC is taken I don’t know.
I also like to add my own experience as one of the men discerning priesthood at St. Charles Barromeo Seminary in Philadephia. I asked a seminarian about St. Charles and the possibility of homosexuals in the seminarians.
He said, “St. Charles is very traditional, and many of the men here are respectable men with high moral standards. If there are homosexual seminarians we don’t know. It’s basically a don’t ask, don’t tell policy. We aren’t the Pink Palace in St. Mary’s in Maryland, which is known to have openly gay seminarians. Though that seminary has been cleaned out since the sex scandal.”
One of the priest at the seminary said that men discerning priesthood now are will be the ones regain the trust of the faithful laymen and laywomen.
Side note, I’m heterosexual and proud of it. I plan to make “PROUD TO BE HETER DAY” LMAO
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sandmountainsli
Guest
When did the Catholic Church begin having celibate priests? Was it a thing which has been since the earliest days or something a later (post 400ad) Pope decided?
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zerinus
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Thanks for your candid reply, but it doesn’t really answer my question though.
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Scottgun
Guest
No. I don’t think the celibacy rule causes or, even contributes to significantly, more homosexual oriented men to enter seminary. Just as, statistically, we don’t see more incidences of pedohilia among celibate clergy than in any other occupation involving adult authority over youth.
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Mannyfit75
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Some say it was decreed by Pope Gregory VII in 1079 A.D.
Anti-Catholics take considerable delight in noting that some of the apostles, including Peter, were married and that for centuries Catholic priest were allowed to marry.
Catholics do not deny that some of the early popes were married or that celibacy, for priest in the Western (Latin) rite, did not become mandatory until the middle ages. Anti-Catholic writers generally failed to not that even today many Catholic priests in the Eastern rite are married and that is has always been that way.
Celibacy in the Latin rite is purely a matter of discipline. It came to be thought that priests could be better fulfill their if they remain unmarried.
Nor is this unbiblical notion; it is Paul’s advice. After saying he wished those whom he was writing were, like he, unmarried (1 Cor 7:7-9), Paul said he thought celibacy was more perfect state (1 Cor 7:28), noting that "the unmarried man is anxious about worldly affairs, how to please his wife. (1 Cor 7:32-33).
This applies specially to ministers of the gospel. When Paul counseled Timothy about how to fulfill his ministry, he cautioned him: “Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier is satisfy the one who enlisted him.” (2 Tim 2:3-4). And Paul refers applaudingly to an order of Christian celibate widow (first-century nuns), saying: “But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur for having violated their first pledge.” (1 Tim 5:11-12)
So, the practice of clerical celibacy, even taking vows of celibacy, is thoroughly biblical. When a man becomes a priest in the Latin rite, he knows that he will not be able to marry. Marriage is a good thing (in fact, Catholics acknowledge that Christ elevate it to a sacrament), but it is something that priest are willing to forgo for the sake of being better priests.
No one is forced to be a priest (or nun for that matter), so no Catholic priest is forced to be celibate. Those who want to take the vows of the religious life should not object to following the rules. That does not mean that the rules, as found at any one time, are ideal or cannot be modified-after all, they are not doctrines but matters of discipline.
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zerinus
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So what do you think is the cause of such high attraction of homosexually oriented men to the seminary (and to the priesthood)?
That sounds a bit doubtful to me. The scandals of a few years ago seem to tell a different story.
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Mannyfit75
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scandals are not common in just the Catholic Church. It’s world issue, especially sex scandals. Just look at the Evangelical Protestant Ministered who has done “sexually immorality” with a male hooker.
The Catholic Church is the guardian of moral and faith, and since its membership is over billions, it is not surprisely that the liberal media attack the Church and then to blow the sex scandal as just a Catholic issue.
In your question why homosexual priests are attracted to the priesthood, well I can guess. They want to restrain themselves from committing homosexual act and so becoming a priest gives them that choice. It also benefit the priests to become more self control of his desires.
As a priest, they cannot break that vow of celibacy and chastity. To do so, would be a dis-service to God and the Catholic Church, and in the long would it would damage his credibility as a “Man of God.”
Priest have a higher moral standard towards their parishioners, and must live by it. They cannot become hyprocrites, they must lead by example.
By this they must attend to the needs of the faithful, the poor, etc, and so forth.
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FCEGM
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The Papal Bull of Pope Siricius in the 380’s mandated priestly celibacy. But although married men were chosen to be deacons, priests, bishops in the early Church, they were required to be continent or be disbarred from the clergy, following the Apostolic example.
There were simple reasons for this: the Twelve were living celibate when they left their families to follow Our Lord and so were living with and like Him. Moreover, the Apostolic Offices of the Twelve was the highest office of the Church, which the Episcopal offices comes closest to but not equal to. The continence required of bishops followed the Twelve’s vocation to live totally for the Kingdom, as Our Lord says in Matthew 19 that some are eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom.
At first this did not mean separation from one’s wife, but only separation from conjugal sex; this normally would not be a problem, since priests and bishops, and even deacons were chosen from the elders, i.e., those whose children were already raised.
All this is clearly indicated in all the synodal decisions of the Church of the Fathers, East and West, as ably researched and presented by Fr. Cochini, S.J., in his Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy, Ignatius Press, 1990.
Among the evidence adduced by Fr. Cochini up to A.D. 390 are: Ignatius of Antioch, Polycrates of Ephesus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Hyppolytus of Rome, Origen, the Council of Elvira, First Council of Arles, councils of Ancyra, of Neo-Caesarea, Nicaea, Gahgres, then several Fathers of the Church, etc., etc…
From 390 to the end of the 5th century, besides Roman pontiffs, are numerous councils and synods: Chalcedon, 17th Council of Carthage, 1st Council of Toledo, Council of Orange, 2nd of Arles, 1st of Tours, of Turin; the Armenian Canons of Gregory the Illuminator, Council of Chahabivan, of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, of BethLafath, of Mar Acacius, of Mar Babai; several more from this period.
The 6th century has councils from Africa, Spain and finally the Quinisext synod in Trullo, which is the very first synod of all mentioned previously, including from the Syriac Tradition (which later compromises under Nestorianism) that changes the practice for deacons and priests, but with several restrictions which indicate the reasons for the earlier stricter discipline received from the Apostles: sexual fasting before the Eucharist, no marriageafter ordination (not even for widowers), and celibacy for the Episcopate.
By the 11th century, this discipline broke down in the West due to extreme secularism, so Gregory VII re-established it by restricting candidates to celibates, either single or widowers. The Protestant Reformers revolted against this and Trent re-imposed it, which, because of the seminary system it installed, was able finally to carry it off rather thoroughly for awhile.
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Thepeug
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Because I was reading too quickly, I thought you were referring to Priscilla and Maximilla, leaders of the heretical Montanist movement (to which Tertullian eventually converted). I deleted my initial post after only a few seconds (you guys are quick!) when I realized my mistake. Sorry for the confusion!
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Thepeug
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Manny,
Though the Eastern Churches generally have a mixture of both celibate and married clergy, some Churches have adopted the Latin discipline and mandate celibacy among priests and bishops. I believe that the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, for instance, maintains priestly celibacy. In other Churches (Ruthenian, for instance), married priests are allowed in theory, but Jack Chick will convert to Catholicism before you’ll see a married man ordained in the eparchy of Passaic.
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