Vatican risking a 'Galileo' position?

[bones_IV]

Folks I had to laugh when I read this one.

The recent statement (Chronicle Oct. 5) on artificial nutrition by the Vatican Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith raises many questions. If a patients condition is diagnosed as “vegetative,” then by its very definition this condition is less than human. If effect, the Vatican has approved of keeping patients in a persistent subhuman condition, whether or not there is a cure. In a vegetative state, there is no way of knowing what the patient is really feeling. Had the Vatican existed in Jesus’ time, would they have advocated life support on Calvary, indefinately extending His torture for days, months, or years?* wth! (what the heck) this man obviously doesn’t read his bible.* The absurdity is obvious. It’s his reasoning that is rather dubious. lol
The actions of Pope John Paul II at his deathbed reveal more to Catholics about the dying process than the Vatican’s proclamation. Rather than returning to the medical resources of Gemelli hospital, he chose to remain at his residence for his last days. The last words from his lips before going unconscious were, “Let me go to the Lord”. These are hardly actions and words of someone willing to remain on indefinite life support in vegetative state. What logic is this man using?
The crucial question is who defines ordinary or extraordinary care? God decides this and He makes the call through the Vatican. Is it ordinary to have ventilators and tubes stuck into our bodies? These are definitions are the domain of the medical profession. Just as the medical profession does not determine medical procedure. *Similar to the case of Galileo, the Vatican has expertise only in religious matters, not scientific matters. ROFTL… either this man is short on brains or is schizophrenic. *

Paul Snymanowski
Genoa Our Lady of Lourdes

 

[Magicsilence]

Folks I had to laugh when I read this one.

The recent statement (Chronicle Oct. 5) on artificial nutrition by the Vatican Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith raises many questions. If a patients condition is diagnosed as “vegetative,” then by its very definition this condition is less than human. If effect, the Vatican has approved of keeping patients in a persistent subhuman condition, whether or not there is a cure. In a vegetative state, there is no way of knowing what the patient is really feeling. Had the Vatican existed in Jesus’ time, would they have advocated life support on Calvary, indefinately extending His torture for days, months, or years?* wth! (what the heck) this man obviously doesn’t read his bible.* The absurdity is obvious. It’s his reasoning that is rather dubious. lol
The actions of Pope John Paul II at his deathbed reveal more to Catholics about the dying process than the Vatican’s proclamation. Rather than returning to the medical resources of Gemelli hospital, he chose to remain at his residence for his last days. The last words from his lips before going unconscious were, “Let me go to the Lord”. These are hardly actions and words of someone willing to remain on indefinite life support in vegetative state. What logic is this man using?
The crucial question is who defines ordinary or extraordinary care? God decides this and He makes the call through the Vatican. Is it ordinary to have ventilators and tubes stuck into our bodies? These are definitions are the domain of the medical profession. Just as the medical profession does not determine medical procedure. *Similar to the case of Galileo, the Vatican has expertise only in religious matters, not scientific matters. ROFTL… either this man is short on brains or is schizophrenic. *

Paul Snymanowski
Genoa Our Lady of Lourdes

I agree with his sentiment, but his comparisons are not ‘well placed’

 

[bones_IV]

I agree with his sentiment, but his comparisons are not ‘well placed’

Food and water must be provided as long as it can be metabolized. The Vatican is not suggesting that someone who is already dying a natural death must be kept alive at all costs for no good reason. What they ARE saying is that someone whose system is not naturally shutting down and who isn’t even what might be considered “brain dead” can’t be starved to death just because they can not function normally or might be comatose. Such a person still deserves norrmal sustanance of food and water, as long as they are able to process it and should not be denied this, therefore. The fact is that when a human is in a state of unconsciousness it does not mean they have another underlying deadly ailment. The usage of the term vegetative really bothers me. SO: If it is not human any longer then it can be argued that the “vegetable” has no right to “its” life or use of assets.

 

[Magicsilence]

Food and water must be provided as long as it can be metabolized. The Vatican is not suggesting that someone who is already dying a natural death must be kept alive at all costs for no good reason. What they ARE saying is that someone whose system is not naturally shutting down and who isn’t even what might be considered “brain dead” can’t be starved to death just because they can not function normally or might be comatose. Such a person still deserves norrmal sustanance of food and water, as long as they are able to process it and should not be denied this, therefore. The fact is that when a human is in a state of unconsciousness it does not mean they have another underlying deadly ailment. The usage of the term vegetative really bothers me. SO: If it is not human any longer then it can be argued that the “vegetable” has no right to “its” life or use of assets.

I haven’t read much on the issue. No argument here

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Folks I had to laugh when I read this one.

The recent statement (Chronicle Oct. 5) on artificial nutrition by the Vatican Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith raises many questions. If a patients condition is diagnosed as “vegetative,” then by its very definition this condition is less than human. If effect, the Vatican has approved of keeping patients in a persistent subhuman condition, whether or not there is a cure. In a vegetative state, there is no way of knowing what the patient is really feeling. Had the Vatican existed in Jesus’ time, would they have advocated life support on Calvary, indefinately extending His torture for days, months, or years?* wth! (what the heck) this man obviously doesn’t read his bible.*The absurdity is obvious. It’s his reasoning that is rather dubious. lol
The actions of Pope John Paul II at his deathbed reveal more to Catholics about the dying process than the Vatican’s proclamation. Rather than returning to the medical resources of Gemelli hospital, he chose to remain at his residence for his last days. The last words from his lips before going unconscious were, “Let me go to the Lord”. These are hardly actions and words of someone willing to remain on indefinite life support in vegetative state. What logic is this man using?
The crucial question is who defines ordinary or extraordinary care? God decides this and He makes the call through the Vatican. Is it ordinary to have ventilators and tubes stuck into our bodies? These are definitions are the domain of the medical profession. Just as the medical profession does not determine medical procedure. *Similar to the case of Galileo, the Vatican has expertise only in religious matters, not scientific matters. ROFTL… either this man is short on brains or is schizophrenic. *

Paul Snymanowski
Genoa Our Lady of Lourdes

He has got himself all twisted around the “IV” pole!

He does not seem to understand the difference between normal support of life and extraordinary life support. I also don’t believe that anyone has ever said that people in this condition turn into vegetables or loose their humanity. It refers only to a “vegetative state”.

 

[bones_IV]

I haven’t read much on the issue. No argument here

Babies born without brains are still human and should given care. The lack of a brain causes all the bodly systems to close down and they die. But it is in God’s time and they are not to be starved to death.

 

[Metaron]

Babies born without brains are still human and should given care. The lack of a brain causes all the bodly systems to close down and they die. But it is in God’s time and they are not to be starved to death.

Exactly. Does the OP maker have the right to call vegetative human beings non-human or subhuman? No! How could they ever make that judgement?

 

[bones_IV]

He has got himself all twisted around the “IV” pole!

He does not seem to understand the difference between normal support of life and extraordinary life support. I also don’t believe that anyone has ever said that people in this condition turn into vegetables or loose their humanity. It refers only to a “vegetative state”.

What’s the “IV” pole?

 

[TIME]

What’s the “IV” pole?

I think he means Intravenous Pole. As in I.V. Pole.

 

[TIME]

Food and water must be provided as long as it can be metabolized. The Vatican is not suggesting that someone who is already dying a natural death must be kept alive at all costs for no good reason. What they ARE saying is that someone whose system is not naturally shutting down and who isn’t even what might be considered “brain dead” can’t be starved to death just because they can not function normally or might be comatose. Such a person still deserves normal sustanance of food and water, as long as they are able to process it and should not be denied this, therefore. The fact is that when a human is in a state of unconsciousness it does not mean they have another underlying deadly ailment. The usage of the term vegetative really bothers me. SO: If it is not human any longer then it can be argued that the “vegetable” has no right to “its” life or use of assets.

So is this to say that we are NOT allowed to die as people have for thousands of years? Example would be before the 1970’s when people, usually unconscious, could not chew, swallow and digest food or water on their own, they died within a week/few days. Are you saying that it is sinfully if someone writes a Living Will stating they do not want food via an I.V. or Abdominal Peg? And they simply want to die according to God’s Natural Law as many still do in the lesser developed countries today.

 

[vz71]

So is this to say that we are NOT allowed to die as people have for thousands of years?

People will continue to die every day.
Advances in medical science that we have mean that injuries and diseases that would have caused death years ago do not need to.

“to die according to God’s Natural Law” stays the same.

But the causes for this change completely when the science is there for treatment and recovery when there once was no hope of survival.

 

[sing]

People will continue to die every day.
Advances in medical science that we have mean that injuries and diseases that would have caused death years ago do not need to.

“to die according to God’s Natural Law” stays the same.

But the causes for this change completely when the science is there for treatment and recovery when there once was no hope of survival.

So it is not allowed at all to use technology to alter the natural course of the beginning of life, but the end of life is fair game?

The contradiction between this stance and the stance on contraception is mind-boggling.

 

[Pat_the_Cat]

Our perogative is to protect and defend Human life. Some people think that if someone is in a vegetative state that means somehow the “Human” disapears and they become (equal to) a potato.
As long as a person has a body and a soul, they deserve the right to life, and a NATURAL: death

 

[pnewton]

So is this to say that we are NOT allowed to die as people have for thousands of years? Example would be before the 1970’s when people, usually unconscious, could not chew, swallow and digest food or water on their own, they died within a week/few days. Are you saying that it is sinfully if someone writes a Living Will stating they do not want food via an I.V. or Abdominal Peg? And they simply want to die according to God’s Natural Law as many still do in the lesser developed countries today.

Yes, that is the Church’s teaching. One can not with hold food and water and dies a natural death of starvation.

 

[manualman]

So is this to say that we are NOT allowed to die as people have for thousands of years? Example would be before the 1970’s when people, usually unconscious, could not chew, swallow and digest food or water on their own, they died within a week/few days. Are you saying that it is sinfully if someone writes a Living Will stating they do not want food via an I.V. or Abdominal Peg? And they simply want to die according to God’s Natural Law as many still do in the lesser developed countries today.

Methinks you exagerrate a bit. The IV has been around for longer than the 1970’s (You can even see them in MASH episodes). Prior to that, patients were painstakingly spoon-fed broth in tiny quantities to keep them alive (not to claim that euthanasia is anything new, mind you).

There is nothing naturally dignified about starving to death. When the body is no longer able to process food and water, it is another matter. When a severe brain injury or physical injury prevents normal chewing, we are still required to feed the hungry.

I’m not sure where people find contradictions here. At birth, and at death, we are required to respect the innate God-given dignity of the human person, totally separate from utilitarian or aesthetic value judgements. It is not a question of the innate appropriateness of using technology, it is a question of what you use it FOR. When it serves as an aid to help the provision of basic human needs and to preserve basic human rights, it is a good thing. When it is used to debase the value and dignity of a human person, it is bad.

 

[Stella_Matutina]

So it is not allowed at all to use technology to alter the natural course of the beginning of life, but the end of life is fair game?

The contradiction between this stance and the stance on contraception is mind-boggling.

Comparing this to contraception is like comparing apples and oranges. Not even that, more like apples and elephants.

A more valid comparison would relate to using technology to help an unborn or premature child live. Technology has advanced so much that the age of “viablitiy” is becoming younger. Science has allowed us to operate on babies even while they are still in the womb. These medical miracles are blessings from God and are not “unnatural” in an immoral sense. Babies born at 24 weeks would have died easily in the 70’s (and still do die in developing countries.) It is similar to those that cannot chew their own food. Yes they would have died many years ago, but today they can live, and this is not altering any natural course. These people aren’t “dieing.” Heck, we are all dieing if it comes down to that. You don’t feed me, and I’ll die too.

 

[neuro_nurse]

I think a lot of people get confused on the difference between “normal” and “extraordinary” or “heroic” measures. It’s a complicated subject, but once you understand it the Vatican’s teachings are very clear.

Nutrition and hydration are considered “normal.”

Endotracheal tubes, mechanical ventilation, pressors (medications given to keep blood vessels constricted and blood pressure up), chest compressions, cardioversion, are extraordinary.

As long as a person is competent, she or he may refuse any medical treatment - including nutrition and hydration. Most people who are dying stop eating - and in many cases, feeding a person whose systems are shutting down causes discomfort - if the gut isn’t working, the food comes right back up, if the kidneys are working, the person retains fluid and swells up.

A person who is brain dead is dead, but brain death and persistent vegetative states are two completely different clinical entities. In brain death there is no function at any level (sometimes there are still spinal reflexes, which can be a little unsettling).

In a persistent vegetative or ‘minimally conscious’ state there are brain stem reflexes and regulatory functions – the person breathes independently, maintains body temperature, blood pressure, and maintainence of other body systems controlled by lower level neurologic functions.

Nutrition, hydration, and basic nursing care are all that are required to keep a person in a persistent vegetative state alive (I say ‘all that are required’ – but my brother-in-law is in a minimally conscious state and his parents, especially my mother-in-law work very hard to prevent him from getting bedsores, pneumonia, and contractures).

I’ve cared for brain dead patients who were potential organ donors – and it’s a lot of work! Without ‘extraordinary’ care, the blood pressure drops, electrolytes become imbalanced, and the heart stops – at which point they can no longer be organ donors.

Finally, do not believe what you see on TV or in the movies! My poor wife has to listen to me rant about medically related things we see on TV – “That’s not what you do!”