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pnewton
Guest
The name of the Lord was forbidden in Jewish liturgy. It is my understanding that the Catholic liturgy also did not use the name of the Lord. That would be what we would go back to.
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japhy
Guest
Right. The practice we (accidentally) abandoned a couple decades ago.
J
japhy
Guest
While the document itself is not on the USCCB web site, the article about it has been published by CNS which is a branch of the USCCB. Not trying to justify the source’s statement, but just trying to make it clear that the USCCB has acknowledged this document.
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Matariel
Guest
Go back to…? The Catholic Church has always used *Lord *instead of YHWH, out of respect for the Ineffable Name. There is nothing new about this.
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pnewton
Guest
Then why the need for the statement? Yahweh appears even in the lectionary.
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Jaypeeto4
Guest
Remember that this is a LITURGICAL directive ONLY.
It does NOT apply to our personal use of Yahweh in our personal prayers and devotions.
Frankly, I don’t understand the need for it even liturgically.
The name YAHWEH itself was originally written in the
Old Testament nearly SIX THOUSAND TIMES. Obviously,
the OT writers were not afraid of writing out the name Yahweh.
While it is true that the Masoretes used the vowel points of
ADONAI to indicate that the name Adonai should be used in place of Yahweh in Jewish liturgical worship, this was a late development. Interestingly, the very Jewish leaders who wouldn’t publicly pronounce the name Yahweh, were at the forefront of calling for the death of Jesus.
I don’t see ANYTHING wrong with pronouncing the Name in a non-liturgical situation, and frankly, since God INSPIRED the old testament writers to write the Tetragram some 6,000 times in the OT, God obviously doesn’t object to it’s use or He wouldn’t have so inspired the OT writers to use the Tetragram.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
It does NOT apply to our personal use of Yahweh in our personal prayers and devotions.
Frankly, I don’t understand the need for it even liturgically.
The name YAHWEH itself was originally written in the
Old Testament nearly SIX THOUSAND TIMES. Obviously,
the OT writers were not afraid of writing out the name Yahweh.
While it is true that the Masoretes used the vowel points of
ADONAI to indicate that the name Adonai should be used in place of Yahweh in Jewish liturgical worship, this was a late development. Interestingly, the very Jewish leaders who wouldn’t publicly pronounce the name Yahweh, were at the forefront of calling for the death of Jesus.
I don’t see ANYTHING wrong with pronouncing the Name in a non-liturgical situation, and frankly, since God INSPIRED the old testament writers to write the Tetragram some 6,000 times in the OT, God obviously doesn’t object to it’s use or He wouldn’t have so inspired the OT writers to use the Tetragram.
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
C
colliric
Guest
Nope. This is not true.I am ***THOROUGHLY CONFUSED *** by all of this !!! :blushing:
If YHWH is God’s Name that we should not pronounce, then should we also not be pronouncing the name of JESUS? After all, He’s God. ("… and bestowed upon Him the Name which is above every other name…" )
If we should not be pronouncing YHWH, then** it seems like it would be disrespectful to call Him “Abba” (Daddy), yet Jesus said we can do that.** Is it something like a parent saying to his child, "Yes, my name is Henry, but to you, it’s Daddy!"
If we should not be pronouncing YHWH because that’s His Name, then why is it a sin to say “God d*** it!” (not that I think that’s a good thing to do) or taking His Name in vain by saying something like “Oh, God!!!” (in exasperation, for example), if “God” isn’t His Name (which I’ve always known it’s not His Name but more like “what” He is)?
It just is all really confusing to me. Maybe I just have to get used to it.
God wants us to respect and love his fatherly role in our life so he allows and desires us to call him “Father” (and also “God”) but he does NOT wish for us to address him like for example Bart Simpson does to his dad. It is very disrespectful to fathers to call them by their first name, when they want us to respect their role in our life, out of love and out of wanting to teach us to “respect your elders”… So there is no contradiction at all and this should surely not be a problem at all.
surely it should be considered that one of the biggest insults one can give to our own parents is NOT to call them Father and Mother, but to delibratly call them by their first name… surely!
Jesus came down here to Earth and wanted us to proclaim his name and salvation to all the nations. He is God the son. It is therefore permitted that we are allowed the use the name of God the Son on earth, Simply because he actually came here in the form of flesh, also taking on a human name for us to address him by. This is in fact, simular to the solution to the Iconoclasm controvery. Because Jesus came down here and dwelt amoungst us as God the Son, we are allowed to make images of him and to pronounce his name to all nations like that of a beloved Brother.
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japhy
Guest
Right, with the Church admits is a mistake, as far as I can tell.
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japhy
Guest
How do you know the complete name was written?
The Septuagint uses kurios (“Lord”) where the Divine Name was used; wouldn’t that suggest that a pre-Christian practice of substituting adonai for YHWH?
Non sequitur. We have no proof that the Jews who loved Jesus publicly pronounced the name. The Bible suggests that, in Jesus’s time, only he said the name out loud.
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Jimzz12
Guest
Most of the songs that use Y–W–H are written by [edited] Dan Schutte.
FYI. A former consecrate man and now homosexual activist that gets rich off of our singing the songs he wrote since he holds the copyrights.
If you do see his name at the bottom the song please refrain from singing and inform your pastor as to who Dan Schutte is.
FYI. A former consecrate man and now homosexual activist that gets rich off of our singing the songs he wrote since he holds the copyrights.
If you do see his name at the bottom the song please refrain from singing and inform your pastor as to who Dan Schutte is.
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agapewolf
Guest
Actually, OCP holds the copyrights, and they pay him royalties- which is pennies. He is hardly getting rich.
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rwoehmke
Guest
This whole bru-ha-ha is just another indication that Vaticanos, instead of taking care of problems in the Church that need fixing would rather spend their time jerking people around.
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japhy
Guest
Ouch.
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colliric
Guest
This post is very good.
- The Complete name was Never written(it was perhaps known through traditions). The Vowels were not written in the Hebrew texts. Most biblical scholars of both religions will attest to this. To write the name of God was considered as much a sin as saying it was.
- The Septuagint does do that, this is because this conforms to point 1 and supports it but used a diffrent way of conforming to the rule. To write the name of God was as much of a sin as to say it. The Hellenistic Jews were of cause aware of this, and choose to, instead of writing the Hebrew letters “YHWH” in Greek, textualise the verbal tradition of putting “Adonai” in it’s place. This was surely also because they were actually promoting/teaching Judaism to the Greek speaking Gentiles at the time and they needed to stop Gentiles from committing uninformed Blasphymy as well.
- Yes he did. This is of cause 100% correct, if it indeed was used, only Jesus used it.
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Matariel
Guest
Ok, then why does the Septuagint, and the Church throughout all ages invariably use the word “Lord” in place of the Tetragrammaton?
Ok, so now your calling us who hold to the apostolic tradition of saying “Lord” instead of the Tetragrammaton are on par with the corrupt Sanhedrin of that time? That’s a very Christian thing to say.
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anmparod
Guest
I understand the importance of maintaining respect for the Lord’s Name, but to some degree, I am saddened that the Name may not be pronounced in the Liturgy. After all, the Name was given to Moses as a sign of the Lord’s intimate relationship with His people. He was not merely some distant god who would lord it over his earthly slaves; rather, He was to be a loving member of the family, and a faithful friend.
I recall the beautiful language of 1 Kings 8, when King Solomon brought the Ark of the Covenant into the Temple in Jerusalem. Solomon spoke of what God was doing, namely, making a house for His own Name, a Name that the whole world would come to know and honor as they saw the glory of Jerusalem and the holy dwelling place of God. I wonder, how could the world ever come to know the Name if it is never uttered?
In any case, I will follow the Church’s directives. As far as I can tell, this is only a stipulation pertaining to the Liturgy, and says nothing regarding our personal prayer and spirituality outside of that realm.
I recall the beautiful language of 1 Kings 8, when King Solomon brought the Ark of the Covenant into the Temple in Jerusalem. Solomon spoke of what God was doing, namely, making a house for His own Name, a Name that the whole world would come to know and honor as they saw the glory of Jerusalem and the holy dwelling place of God. I wonder, how could the world ever come to know the Name if it is never uttered?
In any case, I will follow the Church’s directives. As far as I can tell, this is only a stipulation pertaining to the Liturgy, and says nothing regarding our personal prayer and spirituality outside of that realm.
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colliric
Guest
That usage of “name” is more akin to “positive reputation” in that situation.
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anmparod
Guest
Interesting. Can you explain for me how one can tell the difference?
Perhaps I’ll also look at the passage as it appears in the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. As long as we’re talking about the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, I suppose it makes sense for me to actually read this passage in the Hebrew to make better sense of it!
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.
Perhaps I’ll also look at the passage as it appears in the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia. As long as we’re talking about the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, I suppose it makes sense for me to actually read this passage in the Hebrew to make better sense of it!
Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.
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SavedByHim
Guest
Before I got to your post, I was just thinking to myself, "Wait a minute, I remember singing a song as a child that said “Y-W-H, I know you are near…” A quick search on the internet confirmed that this song was indeed written by Dan Schutte.
And now that I think about it, I don’t remember singing that song at Mass in many, many years. Very interesting.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
[Edited]
Also, the hymns he wrote are not heretical, nor should they be avoided, unless the Church condemns them.
Keep in mind that Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, but that doesn’t mean the words of the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution are false.
Jim
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