Vatican speaks out against modern Church art and architecture

[CaptFun]

Maybe it’s because I grew up on the Great Plains, but the pattern in the ceiling feels like it’s starting to spin towards the central peak so it makes me think of the sky right before a tornado forms. Even some of the colors are slightly reminiscent of the unusual colors right before a storm. I want to get to heaven, but through Christ; not a funnel cloud.

Y’know actually I find the architecture of that space striking. Just NOT for mass, as it almost competes for attention.

I suppose the grand, tall, stone churches of yesteryear with their beautiful stained glass windows (that were not JUST stained glass in pretty colors, but conveyed the faith in pictures) may have seduced the eye to something away from the mass for a moment too -yet the message could return one’s distraction back unto worship better than this modern building can.

It also made me wonder about heating/cooling problems inherent in such a building.

For a meeting hall or convention site this “room” might be appreciated more for what IT is – without competing against the most beautiful things in the world, and its relative unsuitability for worship versus how good it might be as another venue. In my opinion.

To be fair, some of the beautiful old buildings have their drawbacks too. I visited a stunning old Church in Burlingame, CA and went to a noon weekday mass there. The sound system echoing through its cavernous (though beautiful!) interior was hard to decipher as the Epistle and Gospel were read and the homily rendered.

 

[edwest2]

An excerpt from the Washington Post that I found applicable:

"The poet, essayist, novelist and farmer Wendell Berry has written about this appropriate reaction by a community with great eloquence. He writes,

"I know that for a century or so many artists and writers have felt it their duty - a mark of their honesty and courage - to offend their audience. But if the artist has a duty to offend, does not the audience therefore have a duty to be offended? If the public has a duty to protect speech that is offensive to the community, does not the community have the duty to respond, to be offended, and so defend itself against the offense? A community, as part of a public, has no right to silence publicly protected speech, but it certainly has a right not to listen and to refuse its patronage to the speech that it finds offensive. It is remarkable, however, that many writers and artists appear to be unable to accept this obvious and necessary limitation on their public freedom; they seem to think that freedom entitles them not only to be offensive but also to be approved and subsidized by the people whom they have offended. "Sex, Economy, Freedom and Community"]"

Ed

 

[LisaA]

Lisa,

Abandoning the truth about beauty, which we are hard-wired to recognize, leaves only a few options: the ugly and the incomprehensible, and the profane. In the last half of the previous century, a kind of priesthood existed in the “new” fine arts world. They are called art critics. They filter out the good and beautiful, and embrace the only other choices. There was a desire (calling it a philosophy is OK, but people decided on the philosophy - it doesn’t just spring forth on its own) to destroy beauty by not depicting it, or depicting the ugly or disturbing or the incomprehensible. And presenting it for our approval - or so they tried. I still look at fine art today and see the same things repeated over and over. The same philosophy is still in place.

I think it was this rejection of truth that drove some, even to the point of mocking religion. While others, claiming to be dissatisfied with creating ‘the same old thing’ in art, worshipped the god Change. And Change desires regular sacrifices. Only the new, new new would create the illusion of progress, or ‘being modern.’ But that is no excuse to ignore the beautiful.

So yes, I believe leaving God, and the great works of art that have stood the test of time, out of the equation, mirrors the distorted truths being fed to us in most media about various issues of our times. We are being told the dysfunctional is good, that wrong is right, and God? Out of sight, out of mind. Dwell on this, they tell us. Let distortions be your entertainment and even a part of your life.

As the Vatican announced, the true, the truly sacred will be returning to Church art and architecture, and there are great artists and architects out there. This, I hope, will also encourage a return to beauty and truth in non-religious art as well, which should be built on the same foundation. Truth is truth.

Ed

Thank you, fascinating. Hmmm any coincidence that Obama’s slogan referred to Change?

I’m happy that the Vatican is providing guidance on art and architecture. Our new Archbishop is apparently known for his liturgical faithfulness…maybe the end of intpretive dance and guitars?

Lisa

 

[edwest2]

Thank you, fascinating. Hmmm any coincidence that Obama’s slogan referred to Change?

I’m happy that the Vatican is providing guidance on art and architecture. Our new Archbishop is apparently known for his liturgical faithfulness…maybe the end of intpretive dance and guitars?

Lisa

Lisa,

All politicians are about change. At every level, it’s “elect me and I’ll change things for the better.” I think Pope Francis has some wonderful surprises still in store.

Ed

 

[CaptFun]

Makes you realize that the architects worship the god of myself rather than having any real understanding much less respect for God and the Church.

I agree, it looks like Legos for giants. Really quite an unattractive building. I hope that the interior is more worship oriented…but afraid to find out

Does anyone know about the purchase of the Chrystal Cathedral? How is that working out?

Lisa

It’s a work in progress. The Crystal Cathedral group is still there, but preparing its move (down the street about a mile to MY old Church, St. Callistus - which parish will move into the “Crystal Cathedral” complex and become “Christ Cathedral” parish.

The expansive grounds will just about accommodate St. Callistus which, though it had expanded greatly over the years, has overflow crowds to its many masses - in English, Spanish and Vietnamese - and tended to create traffic and parking problems at its old location.

Initially the diocese is altering another large building on the site to accommodate mass.
Compared to the “Noah’s Ark in glass” the outside of that building is rather tame. Some might find IT more appropriately understated for a Catholic Mass (it’s a nice building with pretty grounds surrounding it and should be quite nice).



A model of THAT building. Next to the “Crystal Cathedral” on the campus. With a look
closer to some Catholic Churches built in the 1960’s.

There may be enough parking to have services at two locations at the same time eventually. Diocesan headquarters may also relocate there due to its central convenient location in the Diocese and the potential sale of the previous Marywood High School’s hilltop campus - which could bring more financial help to make Christ Cathedral (its schools, offices, and cemetary) a thriving hub of Diocesan activities.

Some articles, photos - note dates:

ocregister.com/articles/cathedral-374195-catholic-church.html

ocregister.com/news/cathedral-367876-catholic-campus.html

google.com/search? q=photo+Crystal+Cathedral+complex&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GHC7UfxJgcb2BNOxgLgL&ved=0CCwQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=793



From this angle one can see the “shiplike” shape of the Crystal building, accented by the reflecting pools to emphasize that. And though unmistakably modern and unique, a bit of the a traditional “spire pointing heavenward” look is integrated. At night especially the giant cross atop the old “Tower of Power” building that was once the main Church reflects in the windows.

It is funny that I always had an affection for that particular Protestant ministry in town.

It got praised and criticized by at times for its many unusual ministries: large pageants (The Glory of Christmas and Easter were performed right IN the Crystal Cathedral - which did seem to make as good a theatre as a Church); the ministy’s televangelism (including religious leaders from Fulton Sheen to Billy Graham - and not a few secular celebrities), its outreaches to the unchurched with novelties like drive-in worship. The “church” actually started with daytime services in a local drive-in movie theatre where people used the sound system to “worship in their cars!” as Robert Schuller literally “preached it from a rooftop” on top of the theatre’s concession stands.

Ironically, at the same time, St. Callistus parish began holding ITS first services in a nearby roller rink … while it’s first buildings were being completed!

I do remember loving seeing that big cross on top of the “Tower of Power” completed about the time the Big A (Anaheim Stadium) was completed. At that time the cross and the Haloed A were among the tallest manmade structures in Orange County!

In 1987 during Pope John Paul II’s visit Reverend Schuller places TVs throughout the Cathedral so that Catholics, Christians and others who could not go to one of the Pope’s venues in person, could watch it in a group in a Churchlike atmosphere. An LA TV channel was providing round the clock coverage of the Pope’s LA visit.

When asked why a Protestant Minister was doing such an (unprecedented? ecumenical?) thing, Schuller responded with a quote that SHOULD have made national news.

“It is time for Protestants to go to the shepherd (the pope) and say, `What do we have to do to come home?’” —Dr. Robert Schuller, Los Angeles Herald Examiner, Sept. 19, 1987.

forchristforever.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Cathedral-Campus-Fact-Sheet.pdf < see especially the page that shows Rev. Schuller showing plans for the not yet built Cathedral (and the partially built campus) to Pope John Paul II in 1982! The illustration next to that picture gives a better idea about the whole campus and purchase.

 

[LisaA]

It’s a work in progress. The Crystal Cathedral group is still there, but preparing its move (down the street about a mile to MY old Church, St. Callistus - which parish will move into the “Crystal Cathedral” complex and become “Christ Cathedral” parish.

The expansive grounds will just about accommodate St. Callistus which, though it had expanded greatly over the years, has overflow crowds to its many masses - in English, Spanish and Vietnamese - and tended to create traffic and parking problems at its old location.

Initially the diocese is altering another large building on the site to accommodate mass.
Compared to the “Noah’s Ark in glass” the outside of that building is rather tame. Some might find IT more appropriately understated for a Catholic Mass (it’s a nice building with pretty grounds surrounding it and should be quite nice).

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nHk4eRE8Qbc/TLVhlO837nI/AAAAAAAADiA/Z5AP95-IBTQ/s1600/Neutramodel.JPG

A model of THAT building. Next to the “Crystal Cathedral” on the campus. With a look
closer to some Catholic Churches built in the 1960’s.

There may be enough parking to have services at two locations at the same time eventually. Diocesan headquarters may also relocate there due to its central convenient location in the Diocese and the potential sale of the previous Marywood High School’s hilltop campus - which could bring more financial help to make Christ Cathedral (its schools, offices, and cemetary) a thriving hub of Diocesan activities.

Some articles, photos - note dates:

ocregister.com/articles/cathedral-374195-catholic-church.html

ocregister.com/news/cathedral-367876-catholic-campus.html

google.com/search? q=photo+Crystal+Cathedral+complex&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=GHC7UfxJgcb2BNOxgLgL&ved=0CCwQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=793

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5290/5339779247_85053d1d1a_m.jpg

From this angle one can see the “shiplike” shape of the Crystal building, accented by the reflecting pools to emphasize that. And though unmistakably modern and unique, a bit of the a traditional “spire pointing heavenward” look is integrated. At night especially the giant cross atop the old “Tower of Power” building that was once the main Church reflects in the windows.

It is funny that I always had an affection for that particular Protestant ministry in town.

It got praised and criticized by at times for its many unusual ministries: large pageants (The Glory of Christmas and Easter were performed right IN the Crystal Cathedral - which did seem to make as good a theatre as a Church); the ministy’s televangelism (including religious leaders from Fulton Sheen to Billy Graham - and not a few secular celebrities), its outreaches to the unchurched with novelties like drive-in worship. The “church” actually started with daytime services in a local drive-in movie theatre where people used the sound system to “worship in their cars!” as Robert Schuller literally “preached it from a rooftop” on top of the theatre’s concession stands.

Ironically, at the same time, St. Callistus parish began holding ITS first services in a nearby roller rink … while it’s first buildings were being completed!

I do remember loving seeing that big cross on top of the “Tower of Power” completed about the time the Big A (Anaheim Stadium) was completed. At that time the cross and the Haloed A were among the tallest manmade structures in Orange County!

In 1987 during Pope John Paul II’s visit Reverend Schuller places TVs throughout the Cathedral so that Catholics, Christians and others who could not go to one of the Pope’s venues in person, could watch it in a group in a Churchlike atmosphere. An LA TV channel was providing round the clock coverage of the Pope’s LA visit.

When asked why a Protestant Minister was doing such an (unprecedented? ecumenical?) thing, Schuller responded with a quote that SHOULD have made national news.

forchristforever.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Cathedral-Campus-Fact-Sheet.pdf < see especially the page that shows Rev. Schuller showing plans for the not yet built Cathedral (and the partially built campus) to Pope John Paul II in 1982! The illustration next to that picture gives a better idea about the whole campus and purchase.

Thanks wow, fascinating and the quote by Rev Schuller…amazing. I wonder if there is hope for One Flock, One Shepherd.

Lisa

 

[Abbigaelann]

There’s also a “Neo Byzantine”, or “Byzantine Revival” that I’m very fond of. The Cathedral Basillica in St. Louis is in this style, and I might be biased, but I think is one of the most beautiful I’ve ever been in.

http://archstl.org/files/field-image/new-priests-2010.jpg

There I feel so miniscule in the universe, as if a subatomic particle to the awesomeness of God… and to hear the choir sing from the loft, as if angels in heaven…amazing place…

 

[Abbigaelann]

I think what I miss most in the design of most modern churches, although I must applaud them if funds go instead to charitable causes, is the amount of love and craftsmanship, often of the parish or diocese in praise of their God. These are the contributions that are priceless. Why is there so little evidence of this today? Are we void of any local talent that can convey that type of love of God? How many participate? And for some, was it a means of penance, in and of itself? For others, they did not have cash, but goods and talent as a means to do trade…so many considerations. How many parishes today, could sell off two golden candlesticks, invest the money and keep generating revenues from the principal once interest starts coming in to feed how many of their parish, yet retain the art of generations’ love of God?!!

 

[LisaA]

There I feel so miniscule in the universe, as if a subatomic particle to the awesomeness of God… and to hear the choir sing from the loft, as if angels in heaven…amazing place…

Now that is a beautiful church!
Lisa

 

[livingwordunity]

Everything that is modern isn’t bad. It’s only ugly when it becomes Modernism which divorces itself from the beauty and wisdom of the past generations. I consider the Crystal Cathedral acquisition to be a good thing. It was built by a Protestant minister for the glorification and worship of God. So although it’s considered a modern design it was built with pious intent. And the design of it is not ugly. It looks like a Crystal Cathedral. Plus, there is a special significance to it becoming a Catholic parish especially for me since I used to watch “the Hour of Power” as I was going through my conversion to Christianity which would later be to Catholicism.

 

[october_baby]

Lisa,

Abandoning the truth about beauty, which we are hard-wired to recognize, leaves only a few options: the ugly and the incomprehensible, and the profane. In the last half of the previous century, a kind of priesthood existed in the “new” fine arts world. They are called art critics. They filter out the good and beautiful, and embrace the only other choices. There was a desire (calling it a philosophy is OK, but people decided on the philosophy - it doesn’t just spring forth on its own) to destroy beauty by not depicting it, or depicting the ugly or disturbing or the incomprehensible. And presenting it for our approval - or so they tried. I still look at fine art today and see the same things repeated over and over. The same philosophy is still in place.

I think it was this rejection of truth that drove some, even to the point of mocking religion. While others, claiming to be dissatisfied with creating ‘the same old thing’ in art, worshipped the god Change. And Change desires regular sacrifices. Only the new, new new would create the illusion of progress, or ‘being modern.’ But that is no excuse to ignore the beautiful.

So yes, I believe leaving God, and the great works of art that have stood the test of time, out of the equation, mirrors the distorted truths being fed to us in most media about various issues of our times. We are being told the dysfunctional is good, that wrong is right, and God? Out of sight, out of mind. Dwell on this, they tell us. Let distortions be your entertainment and even a part of your life.

As the Vatican announced, the true, the truly sacred will be returning to Church art and architecture, and there are great artists and architects out there. This, I hope, will also encourage a return to beauty and truth in non-religious art as well, which should be built on the same foundation. Truth is truth.

Ed

Beautifully said ED!!

 

[Ridgerunner]

Now that is a beautiful church!
Lisa

I agree. I have been in it a number of times, though I don’t live in St. Louis. It seems like there are acres of mosaics, all made of tiny little chips that nevertheless make a harmonious whole. In one side chapel, the whole floor is made of tiny, tiny bits of marble and semiprecious stones interlaid to form geometric patterns and flowers.

The place is an absolute marvel, everywhere you turn!

 

[CaptFun]

Thanks wow, fascinating and the quote by Rev Schuller…amazing. I wonder if there is hope for One Flock, One Shepherd.

Lisa

It would be nice to see that — or even just more of that (as happens if EWTN’s Journey Home series is any indication).

I always look with interest when entire congregations become Catholic too.

baltimoresun.com/explore/baltimorecounty/news/community/ph-ca-saint-tims-20130226,0,2656975.story < began to tear up when I read of the 101 year old woman’s story and her vote for her church to “become Catholic”.

Regarding some Church architecture - my main complaint is not the “outside of the cup” as much as when one must search about for where the tabernacle is … or for that matter the “chapel” within the church where the Eucharist is kept - when “renovations” are made.

All architecture was “new” once. I wonder if some of the grand Cathedrals that were built
in the Gothic style, or with spires that reached to the sky were once criticized for their lack of “traditional simplicity” or something. Oh for the simple catecombs!

Christ Cathedral (The “Crystal Cathedral’s” new name) will take some renovating to make it a place for Catholic mass. Right now the entire campus seems set to be the centrally located Diocesan seat replacing the Marywood Center.

 

[pnewton]

This is the fundamental problem, isn’t it?

It’s all about the architect. The architect wants “his” name to be exalted.

This is nothing new a little has changed. Many of the great Cathedrals were races for civil pride, or as a tribute to a wealthy family. I note that this “Telegraph” news article came out with a somewhat slanted title. Not all modern art was condemned. Nor was it “the Vatican” speaking. In fact it was one Vatican official opposing the opinion of another about architecture.

 

[ringil]

I’m not a real fan of most of the modern church architecture. I don’t even really like the plain style of many local churches in the 1800’s and early 1900’s.

That being said, it’s so expensive to build beautiful new churches. These new spaceship things just cost less.

One ingenious thing being done is the “moving” of entire churches. Some communities in the south, where Catholics are growing, have taken to moving beautiful churches no longer being used in the North. It actually comes out cheaper than building an entire new church anyway- plus it keeps these buildings in use as sacred spaces versus being turned over to secular use.

 

[Ridgerunner]

That being said, it’s so expensive to build beautiful new churches. These new spaceship things just cost less.

.

I’m not sure they do, necessarily. Some architects have devised ways to use inexpensive modern materials to create traditional, and beautiful, effects. I mentioned two of them in a previous post.

 

[Usige]

I’m not sure they do, necessarily. Some architects have devised ways to use inexpensive modern materials to create traditional, and beautiful, effects. I mentioned two of them in a previous post.

True. The FSSP parish we belong to completely gutted the old church building they were in that was built in the 60s and rebuilt it in a traditional style including celestory windows and faux groin vault ceilings. It uses sheetrock, aluminum studs and stone vaneers just like the OF parish near us that just finished building a new building. Apart from when the altars arrived (the FSSP used altars from an old church that closed) if you looked at the stacks of building materials you’d be hard pressed to tell which went where.

 

[Desertsilver]

I find this disturbing and unsettling like a bad dream. I cannot imagine praying in this space. This is a Catholic church?

Lisa

I too find the colors and shapes quite disturbing. This church has a nightmarish quality to it. I agree with a previous post, that I am drawn to a church that even if you took all of the art and glass out- would ‘scream that it’s a church’.