Vatican theologians study issue of limbo

[itsjustdave1988]

Matt 16_18,

CCC 1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

Ya get one or the other, no matter one’s age when they die, and the ETERNAL retribution is IMMEDIATE and EVERLASTING, excepting those in purgatory. That’s Catholic doctrine, and your novel theory is unconvincing to those who simply read the Catechism without bias.

Matt16_18:

Too bad I can’t read Latin.

Can you point me to what is being quoted in this English translation of Vatican I:ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/V1.HTM

“Si quis dixerit, etiam post mortem hominem iustificari posse; aut poenas damnatorum in gehenna perpetuas esse negaverit; anathema sit”

“If any still says, after death man can be justified; or that the punishment of those condemned to hell is not everlasting, let him be condemned.”

As Ott states, the doctrine was presented at Vatican I for definiition (de fide definita). The schema was not approved and does not appear in the final consititutions. Thus, although it is Catholic doctrine, it is not de fide definita.

I’m astonished that you think Ott agrees with you.

I think this discussion has finished its course. I can keep quoting sources and you’l find a weird way of thinking it agrees with you. I suppose we’ll have to wait and see what the current Roman Pontiff says on the matter.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Dave,

Thanks for the translation. Though, I haven’t had much to offer to this discussion, I have enjoyed reading it as it has been very interesting.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

It seems to me that you are claiming that those who died before Christ that were in the limbus patrum already possessed the grace that Christ released by his death and resurrection, and that their state of justification and sanctification was the same as a Christian that would immediately enter heaven upon their death.

I wanted to address the above point…

Catholic teaching is that the saints of the OT were indeed justified before death (e.g. Abraham). Furthermore, one cannot be justified apart from the grace of Christ. Thus, Abraham and the righteous men of old were indeed justified by the grace of Christ.

It is true that Abraham was justified through faith. But justification is not something that can be earned. It is a gratuitous gift, just as theological faith is a gift from God, which was given to Abraham consequent to his justification. I’ve shown from the book of Jeremiah, God also sanctifies infants in the womb, if He so chooses, thereby washing them of their original sin. All of this can only be by the grace of Christ, who is the source of all grace.

This means that the holy ones of the OT were delivered from original as well as actual sin.Thus, St. Thomas Aquinas asserts, “The holy Fathers while yet living were delivered from original as well as actual sin through faith in Christ” (*Summa Theologica *III, 52, 5). This makes theological sense, as being made holy must mean the remission of the guilt and eternal punishment of all sin.

Likewise, Christians are washed of the guilt of both original sin and actual sin, whether they were sanctified sacramentally or extra-sacramentally by God. Yet, as St. Thomas asserts, Christians “still remain bound by the penalty of original sin as to the necessity of dying in the body.” (ibid.)

According to St. Thomas, the OT saints too, although completely justified by the grace of Christ, having had their original and actual sins forgiven, were still bound to “the penalty of original sin, whereby they were excluded from glory, since the price of man’s redemption was not yet paid” (ibid.)

So, although the OT saints and NT saints are both fully justified and washed of original sin and actual sin, they both are still bound to the penalty of original sin. Their respective justifications are indeed the same in the sense that they were both washed of the guilt and eternal punishment of original sin and actual sin by Jesus Christ. However, only the NT saints died after man’s redemption was paid, and so, for the NT saint, there is no need to wait for heaven to be opened to them. The only delay into heaven according to Catholic doctrine is due to purgation of the temporal effects of sin in purgatory.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Dan-Man916:

Thanks for the translation. Though, I haven’t had much to offer to this discussion, I have enjoyed reading it as it has been very interesting.

Your welcome Dan-Man. I wait eagerly for the approved teaching from Pope Benedict XVI on the matter.

 

[Matt16_18]

itsjustdave1988:

If one understands reprobation as the Thomists do, as non-election, then it is obvious from the above post that the authors of the Catholic Encyclopedia agree that infants can be included among the reprobate.

I understand that the Thomists believe that God reprobates without considering merits or demerits. But if you read the article I linked by Fr. Most, you would see that is exactly where Fr. Most says that the so-called Thomists are in error, and that no Catholic has to accept that this as the definitive teaching of the Church.

The idea that God reprobates infants to damnation is the kind of theological speculation that the International Theological Commission met to discuss. As a faithful Catholic, I do not believe that God eternally damns infants, nor does God eternally exclude infants that died without the grace of Baptism from the beatific vision, nor must I accept these theological speculations. I have reason to believe that the commission will reject the teaching of the Thomists on this point.

Now let us look at what you quoted from CCC 1022 in its context:**Catechism of the Catholic Church

THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT

1021** Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ. The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification or immediately, – or immediate and everlasting damnation.

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.​

---------------

Those that receive the particular judgement by God are judged whether they received or rejected grace, and what love they manifested in their lives. Furthermore, after the particular judgement, “each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith.” How does any of this apply to an infant? And infant cannot reject grace, and an infant cannot be judged according to their works and faith.

Ya get one or the other, no matter one’s age when they die, and the ETERNAL retribution is IMMEDIATE and EVERLASTING, excepting those in purgatory.

Right. Some human beings upon receiving their particular judgement receive eternal retribution, some immediately receive the beatific vision, and some human beings (if not most human beings) receive neither immediate retribution, nor do they immediately receive the beatific vision.

So what about those who are sent to Purgatory? Are they justified and sanctified, or not? The souls in Purgatory have received the grace of initial justification and initial sanctification, and they have died in a state of grace. But … they have not received the grace of final justification since their state of sanctification is such that they cannot behold the beatific vision. These souls have begun their journey to God, but they have not yet completed their conversion. They are still being justified and sanctified in Purgatory, and they must receive grace from God for their justification and sanctification to be complete.**Catechism of the Catholic Church

JUSTIFICATION

1989** The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom.

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. More …

 

[Matt16_18]

Let us say for the sake of argument that in some way infants receive their particular judgement upon their death, and that all these infants are destined to see the beatific vision. (Something that I don’t have a problem with, btw). Isn’t it possible that the immediate fate of these infants is not all the same, just as the immediate fate of many souls that die is neither Hell nor Heaven? After all, some of these infants were baptized by their parents and died before they reached the age of reason. Some were still born, and yet they were loved by their parents, and prayed for by their parents, even though they did not receive the Sacrament of Baptism. Some infants were not ever loved by their parents and were murdered in the womb. Some infants were consecrated to Satan and sacrificed by their parents to the devil. … Why would the immediate fate of all these infants be the same? How can sacrificing an infant to Satan be a means of bestowing the sanctifying grace of the Sacrament of Baptism to a baby?

The souls in Purgatory are spiritually connected to the Church Militant, and they need the love and the prayers of the Church Militant to complete their justification and sanctification before they can enter Heaven. I believe that infants that die without receiving the Sacrament of Baptism are in a situation somewhat similar to the souls in Purgatory. The infants don’t have any personal guilt of sin, so they aren’t in Purgatory being cleansed of sin, but I believe that they are not all in Heaven either.

I believe that the infants are still connected to their parents in a mysterious manner. The infant whose parents loved them in the womb is better off than the infant that was never loved, or the infant that was hated by their Satan worshipping parents. A Catholic parent that loved their stillborn child while it was alive in the womb has done something holy that sanctified that child. The loving parents of the stillborn child can have Masses said for their child, and I believe that helps their child enter heaven, even thought their child never lived long enough to be baptized. This child is joined by love to members of the Body of Christ, and I think that this puts the child in a different state compared to the infant that was never loved by their Satan worshipping parents.

For the child killed by abortion, I think that the child is still connected to their parents, and the child is in a limbo waiting to receive love from their parents. They have an unfulfilled need to receive love from their parents and they are waiting for that love before they can journey on to Heaven. If the parent of an aborted child repents of their sin, they can name their child, love their child, and offer prayers, sacrifices and Masses for their child. I believe that doing these things helps release the child from limbo so that he or she can journey to heaven, just as doing these same things for the holy souls in Purgatory gives them aid on their journey to heaven.

Catholic priests need clear teaching from the Magisterium so that they can effectively minister to the millions of men and women that have been caught up in the sin of abortion.

Project Rachel - Hope After Abortion

 

[Matt16_18]

Theological Commission Studying Limbo

"We must begin with the fact that God wants the salvation of all and does not want to exclude any one; we must base ourselves on the fact that Christ died for all men and that the Church is a universal sacrament of salvation, as the Second Vatican Council teaches.”

 

[itsjustdave1988]

How does any of this apply to an infant?

“Each Man” connotes ALL of mankind, ALL of humanity.

I understand your thesis, but I believe it to be contrary to Catholic doctrine. All of humanity is subject to particular judgement. I don’t know if you were taught otherwise or why, or simply came to a different conclusion on your own, but I believe the conclusion to be in error.

St. Ignatius of Loyola asserted, “think with the Church.” I simply believe any speculative theology must be in accord with Catholic doctrine.

I’ve read what Fr. Most wrote concerning infants who die without sacramental baptism. Nowhere does he suggest a post-death justification, because such speculation is contrary to Catholic doctrine.

The souls in purgatory were made just by God before death. Purgatory is due to any temporal punishment of those already justified before death but have uncompleted penance for sins. Purgatory is not a second chance at justification. In accord with God’s providence and Catholic doctrine, this life is the time for justification, and upon death comes particular judgment, then immediate everlasting glory, or everlasting punishment, excepting the justified in purgatory, the Church Suffering, whose punishment is temporal and followed by everlasting reward in heaven.