Vatican thinks theological dialogue with Islam is impossible, experts charge [Allen]

[Shoshana]

Can you give us some examples of what you considered inspired in the Koran? And if it is inspired how can it have diametrically opposed views of Jesus and salvation?

Of course if you consiider these books to be nothing more than just feel good self help books like those promoted on the Ophra Winfrey show I guess one could pull out a random verse here and there to try and prove their case. Other than that the Books and the religions are so completely inocompatible it is laughable anyone would clam they were.

Oprah Winfrey’s books are all New Age pretty well…those that that give you fuzzies…they shoud give you rose-colored glasses! Abd here is the similarity: New Age borrows many verses from anything that is spiritual and makes one believe that it is the real thing. Same with Islam…

 

[Nohome]

Can you give us some examples of what you considered inspired in the Koran? And if it is inspired how can it have diametrically opposed views of Jesus and salvation?

I could, but based on the rest of your post, I know you will summarily dismiss them so there is really no point in doing so. If you are going to play the Jesus card right away, there is indeed no room for dialog.

Of course if you consiider these books to be nothing more than just feel good self help books like those promoted on the Ophra Winfrey show I guess one could pull out a random verse here and there to try and prove their case. Other than that the Books and the religions are so completely inocompatible it is laughable anyone would clam they were.

Think, just for a moment, about what you say above. If a Muslim were to say the same of your Bible you would be deeply offended and all discussion would cease. Do you expect people born into Islamic faith to just cast aside their beliefs? As previously mentioned, both religeons pray to the God of Abraham. There is indeed common ground.

I am fortunate to live in a diverse neighborhood. My property borders Muslims on two sides, a Catholic on one and a nonbeliever on the other. Based on the life they live, the children they raise and their commitment to the neighborhood, I’d take two more Muslim families in a heart beat. We share a great deal in our prayers, our desires for our families and our hope of salvation, it’s just culture and text that is different.

Nohome

 

[estesbob]

I could, but based on the rest of your post, I know you will summarily dismiss them so there is really no point in doing so. If you are going to play the Jesus card right away, there is indeed no room for dialog.

I didnt think you could. Maybe a random verse her and there with your own personal intperpretation but the books and religions are totally incomaptible

Think, just for a moment, about what you say above. If a Muslim were to say the same of your Bible you would be deeply offended and all discussion would cease. Do you expect people born into Islamic faith to just cast aside their beliefs? As previously mentioned, both religeons pray to the God of Abraham. There is indeed common ground.

I am fortunate to live in a diverse neighborhood. My property borders Muslims on two sides, a Catholic on one and a nonbeliever on the other. Based on the life they live, the children they raise and their commitment to the neighborhood, I’d take two more Muslim families in a heart beat. We share a great deal in our prayers, our desires for our families and our hope of salvation, it’s just culture and text that is different.

Nohome

About 20% of my clintelle in my Houston office are Muslim and many of them are friends Wwe respect each others right to worship the way they want to. However none of us are nieve enough to think our religions are comapitble. I believe their souls are in danger becuase they have rejected Jesus and they beleive I am condemned to hell becuase i worship three Gods. We are not talking here about whetherr or not Muslims are nice people or make good neighbors-we are talking abut your assertion that the Faiths are compatible.

I guess when ones theology, however, is based on how the people in their neighborhood act, they can come to all sorts of erronsuos conclusions.

 

[Nohome]

I didnt think you could. Maybe a random verse her and there with your own personal intperpretation but the books and religions are totally incomaptible

Oh, I can, but as previously stated, it would be wasted on you.

About 20% of my clintelle in my Houston office are Muslim and many of them are friends Wwe respect each others right to worship the way they want to. However none of us are nieve enough to think our religions are comapitble. I believe their souls are in danger becuase they have rejected Jesus and they beleive I am condemned to hell becuase i worship three Gods. We are not talking here about whetherr or not Muslims are nice people or make good neighbors-we are talking abut your assertion that the Faiths are compatible.

I guess when ones theology, however, is based on how the people in their neighborhood act, they can come to all sorts of erronsuos conclusions.

Hmm, my Muslim friend pray for me and they thank me for my prayers. We send them Christmas cards and they share several holidays with us. There is plenty of common ground. We just choose to cwell on that which we share rather than that which divides us.

By the way, your Church teaches that your Muslim friends souls are not in danger.

Nohome

 

[estesbob]

Oh, I can, but as previously stated, it would be wasted on you.

Hmm, my Muslim friend pray for me and they thank me for my prayers. We send them Christmas cards and they share several holidays with us. There is plenty of common ground. We just choose to cwell on that which we share rather than that which divides us.

By the way, your Church teaches that your Muslim friends souls are not in danger.

Nohome

You have yet to show us any compatibility of Islam with Chrisitanity other than you have nice Muslim Neighbors.

And no the Church does NOT say that a Muslioms soul is not in danger… It says ALL souls are in danger and that Salvation is available only through the Catholic Church. It also makes very clear that the best path to Salvation is full membership in the Catholic Church. Those outside the Curch can be saved BUT that is far different from contending their souls are not in danger. Their only hope is their invincble ignorance.

What you express above is the kind of muddled thinking that occurs when one takes ecumenism to far to the extent that they actually believe ones Faith is irelevant to salvation.

 

[Nohome]

You have yet to show us any compatibility of Islam with Chrisitanity other than you have nice Muslim Neighbors.

O.K., I’ll bite.

In the name of God, the infinitely Compassionate and Merciful. Praise be to God, Lord of all the worlds.
The Compassionate, the Merciful. Ruler on the Day of Reckoning. You alone do we worship, and You alone do we ask for help. Guide us on the straight path, the path of those who have received your grace; not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray.
Amen.

Read that two or three times. If I read that in a Catholic Church would their be revolt? Is it herasy?

And no the Church does NOT say that a Muslioms soul is not in danger… It says ALL souls are in danger and that Salvation is available only through the Catholic Church. It also makes very clear that the best path to Salvation is full membership in the Catholic Church. Those outside the Curch can be saved BUT that is far different from contending their souls are not in danger. Their only hope is their invincble ignorance.

What you express above is the kind of muddled thinking that occurs when one takes ecumenism to far to the extent that they actually believe ones Faith is irelevant to salvation.

Please read CCC 847. Do you find that to be muddled?

I’ll pray for you.

Nohome

 

[bones_IV]

O.K., I’ll bite.

Read that two or three times. If I read that in a Catholic Church would their be revolt? Is it herasy?

Please read CCC 847. Do you find that to be muddled?

I’ll pray for you.

Nohome

Let’s take a look at two qoutes:

This:

CCC 847 “This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337”

And this:

St. Augustine, “Outside the Catholic Church there’s no salvation.”

The phrase “no salvation outside the Church” and section 847 of the Catechism are theologically the same thing! There’s no contradiction here.

 

[estesbob]

O.K., I’ll bite.

Read that two or three times. If I read that in a Catholic Church would their be revolt? Is it herasy?

Please read CCC 847. Do you find that to be muddled?

I’ll pray for you.

Nohome

So you found , as i said a couple of verses in the koran that sounded nice

So tell me-how do you reconcile this;

The Chuch says that Jesus is the son of God

Islam says Jesus was a great prophet but not as great as Mohamed and was NOT the Son of god

The Church says all salvation is via jesus and his Church

Islam says salvation is obtained through observance of strict laws

The Church teaches Mohamed was a false Prophet

Muslims beleive to deny Mohamed is a Prophet is apostasy and that member of their Church who deny it are subject to exection.

The Church acknowledges the Trinity

Islam says there is no Trinity & Chrisians are woshippong three Gods.

As Far as the Cathecism goes you as selectively quoted it as you have the Koran;

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **

[846](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/846.htm’) How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337The Cuurch goes on to say you are to witness your Faith your Muslim frineds, Why would the Church so intruct you if Islam and Catholicism were compatible?

**Mission - a requirement of the Church’s catholicity **
[849](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/849.htm’) The missionary mandate. “Having been divinely sent to the nations that she might be ‘the universal sacrament of salvation,’ the Church, in obedience to the command of her founder and because it is demanded by her own essential universality, strives to preach the Gospel to all men”:339 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and Lo, I am with you always, until the close of the age."340

Both Faiths also claim to be the One True Church. How do you reconcile that?

Do you beleive that the Catholic Chruch is the one true Church or are all Faiths eqaul?

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

Hmm, my Muslim friend pray for me and they thank me for my prayers. We send them Christmas cards and they share several holidays with us. There is plenty of common ground. We just choose to cwell on that which we share rather than that which divides us.

how very tolerant of you!! that’s just great–you love the muslim faith so much. maybe you should move to a muslim country and see how they reciprocate to your faith. i’m sure they love to make you wear a burka. it’s so great in these muslim countries they are moving here to the u.s. to force thier wonderfully advanced culture on us.

 

[Nohome]

Both Faiths also claim to be the One True Church. How do you reconcile that?

You don’t. If you did, we would have one faith now wouldn’t we? You choose to dwell on what divides, I choose that which unites. That’s your parogative.

 

[Nohome]

how very tolerant of you!! that’s just great–you love the muslim faith so much. maybe you should move to a muslim country and see how they reciprocate to your faith. i’m sure they love to make you wear a burka. it’s so great in these muslim countries they are moving here to the u.s. to force thier wonderfully advanced culture on us.

And how tolerant of you too! I can say this much, if being Christian means being like you, I’d rather be Muslim!

Nohome

 

[estesbob]

You don’t. If you did, we would have one faith now wouldn’t we? You choose to dwell on what divides, I choose that which unites. That’s your parogative.

No-I tend to be realistic and follow the teachings of the Church .You tend to base your religous beliefs on how nice your neighbors are.

 

[estesbob]

And how tolerant of you too! I can say this much, if being Christian means being like you, I’d rather be Muslim!

Nohome

looks like you are halfway there already. Be truthfull-you really dont see much difference between the two, do you?

 

[Nohome]

No-I tend to be realistic and follow the teachings of the Church .You tend to base your religous beliefs on how nice your neighbors are.

No, you can’t even pretend to begin to know me. I value people, their race and creed is secondary. But yes, I prefer my good Muslim neighbors over many less than desirable so-called Christians.

Nohome

 

[Dale_M]

Quoting drom the article

Hossein charged that the Vatican has rebuffed attempts to engage Muslims in theological conversation, instead concentrating on the diplomatic level.

What is being evaded all the time are those underlying differences in belief that then cause the political and social differences to manifest themselves on the surface. We have to be honest enough to tackle that, and not to hide it in the closet.”

I don’t understand the objection raised by Mr. Hossein and Mr. Esposito. What does further theological dialogue accomplish? Don’t both sides already have a sense of one another? How exactly do diplomatic conversations fall short?

 

[estesbob]

No, you can’t even pretend to begin to know me. I value people, their race and creed is secondary. But yes, I prefer my good Muslim neighbors over many less than desirable so-called Christians.

Nohome

You know you are right. i apologize for my uncharitable posts to you today… Must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed,

 

[dove51]

This is why I love my Church. No simpering concessions, no overly politically-correct handshaking–they just know when arguing is a waste of time. :yup:

 

[Nohome]

You know you are right. i apologize for my uncharitable posts to you today… Must have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed,

It takes a big man to apologize, thanks. I share the blame in my hot pursuit of your posts.

Peace and God’s blessings,

Nohome